Blizzard announces support for PvP

[Steven Hazani]

How many people here have played RoS beta?

I think the mistake I made was forgetting that hardly anyone has actually played it, and being a person who has played it and seeing just how terrible it is might put me on an unequal playing field with those who still have hopes that this "fresh and exciting D3 expansion" will actually be decent.

Yovargas, I don't know how better to explain this but my OP was sarcastic but based on my perceptions of Blizzard's method of handling feedback. They always complain that "players are never satisfied" and they base this statement on the insinuation that they listen and implement the things the community asks for, yet community is never satisfied. When in fact, they don't listen, and even when they do, they do it in a way that negates the entire benefit of said feature.

Eg. They killed the AH, but then they implemented BoP and made the entire item-hunt/reward structure ****ty.

This. Exactly this. Double fixes are the Diablo.

 

[Azzure]

I don't recall them ever saying that. They certainly don't "always" say that.



Almost every single thing they've done since release (and there have been many) has been a direct response to fan complaints & request.



Killing the AH and BoP were both ideas I saw repeatedly in fan forums.

Don't take my word for it:

Throughout the beta thus far, the development cycle and methodology has just completely baffled us. There isn't a single soul out there that understands why we're seeing such awful changes to the game that seem to defy all amounts of feedback we give to the developers. It's like they either have their own vision and are just ignoring us, or are being ultra selective about who they listen to and/or taking their data and suggestions from those people that cheated their way to the top via exploits and thus were already considered skewed data at best.

We see threads asking for feedback, only to find that the feedback requested is for a tiny subset of the subject matter (e.g. feedback requested for Ubers...in Torment only) or we give feedback on our own and see it go by the wayside. And the result is what we have now - a broken game that is both unrewarding and fast becoming a repeat of history past, right down to how feedback was handled the first time around two years ago.

Blizz MVP. He says it better than I do.

 

[yovargas]

Don't take my word for it...

Why in the world would I take your word for it when I've been here for years. I can take my own word for it - I don't recall them ever complaining that players are never satisfied, almost every single thing they've done since release (and there have been many) has been a direct response to fan complaints & request, and killing the AH and BoP were both ideas I saw repeatedly in fan forums.

Here's your apparent problem - you seem to believe that there's some consensus on how to fix anything. There isn't and has never been. I very sincerely hope that they have their own vision because up till now all they've been doing post-release is trying to appease whichever fan group happens to be screaming the loudest and that leads to some pretty stupid game design.

 

[RazeBarb]

Damn, Azzure. When did you become so bitter?

 

[mr punk]

I don't recall them ever saying that. They certainly don't "always" say that.

i don't know about the frequecy, but they have said it:

Spoiler

So far so good, but behind Josh and Kevin's enthusiasm and willingness to engage in Diablo 3's deeper issues is a resignation that Blizzard is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't. "When we announced people could play offline on console, within seconds there were posts on the forums asking for an online-only mode for console, to make sure people weren't cheating," Josh says. "We cannot win."

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-09-05-blizzards-road-to-redemption-diablo-3-and-reaper-of-souls

They always complain that "players are never satisfied" and they base this statement on the insinuation that they listen and implement the things the community asks for, yet community is never satisfied. When in fact, they don't listen, and even when they do, they do it in a way that negates the entire benefit of said feature.

true, but they also said why in the same interview:

Spoiler

"Each game stands on certain pillars that hold the game up," Kevin says. "What are those core things that never change? A good vision for a game can state those in such a way that no matter how you iterate over and over again and change all the details, those things still stand true. The online one is one we've tried to stick to throughout the whole thing."

the core of the game is set in stone and all the team can do is tinker around the edges. i don't know why blizz CM don't inform people of this more often when they read these player suggestions, but it's a far better answer than the stardard non-committal, "why do you feel X is good for the game".

they should also tell players their suggestion are unwelcome if the idea is too complex, potentially confusing, feels unrewarding, punitive or not egalitarian enough since those concepts are verboten in a blizz game. of course, they probably won't do it because they probably think it would ruin their carefully crafted PR image of always listening and engaging with the community with an open mind.

Damn, Azzure. When did you become so bitter?

oh, around the same time everyone else dropped the soap and realized blizz had feet of clay.

 

[yovargas]

i don't know about the frequecy, but they have said it:

Spoiler

So far so good, but behind Josh and Kevin's enthusiasm and willingness to engage in Diablo 3's deeper issues is a resignation that Blizzard is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't. "When we announced people could play offline on console, within seconds there were posts on the forums asking for an online-only mode for console, to make sure people weren't cheating," Josh says. "We cannot win."

Spoiler

Ah, yes, I think I do recall that one. And it's a damn good quote because it shows how utterly false the idea that there is or ever will be any kind of consensus amongst the fans. This "but Blizz never listens to us!!!" bit is BS.

Except maybe that the dialogue sucks.

 

[HardRock]

the core of the game is set in stone and all the team can do is tinker around the edges. i don't know why blizz CM don't inform people of this more often when they read these player suggestions, but it's a far better answer than the stardard non-committal, "why do you feel X is good for the game".

They do it probably because they know they can't think of everything and maybe someone will show how some of their core design pillars or other ideas may be wrong. They don't tell each and every poster when they changed the game based on their feedback, but that doesn't mean they are ignoring us.

Except maybe that the dialogue sucks.

It's actually the reason Cain had to die (spoiler alert). The devs knew he couldn't in good conscience tell us to stay awhile and listen.

Also, Lyndon is funny.

 

[mr punk]

They do it probably because they know they can't think of everything and maybe someone will show how some of their core design pillars or other ideas may be wrong.

wrong? why would they think their core design is wrong? this currect team seems satisfied the core design is in a good place and are sticking with it. apparently, it's the players who have a problem with this decision not blizz.

They don't tell each and every poster when they changed the game based on their feedback, but that doesn't mean they are ignoring us.

i don't think they're completely ignoring players either just being selective and amenable to a certain type of suggestion that fit within their criteria.

Ah, yes, I think I do recall that one. And it's a damn good quote because it shows how utterly false the idea that there is or ever will be any kind of consensus amongst the fans. This "but Blizz never listens to us!!!" bit is BS.

while it's not going to happen with d3. a general consensus amongst fans can and does happen in other games.

 

[Mortalo]

while it's not going to happen with d3. a general consensus amongst fans can and does happen in other games.

And why is that? Cause there was never a game like Diablo. That has so passionate fanbase, no matter if they hate it or like it. People care about the game like none other. But the group is huge. Single-Players, traders, hardcore, ladder - they simply can't agree all. But this does not make any of this groups more special. And that's tough for developers.

 

[mr punk]

And why is that

uhhh..because they generally like the game. shocking news, right? in any event, jay may have been wrong about a lot of things, but he was right about one thing:

Our job isn’t just to put out a game, it’s to release the next Diablo game. No one will remember if the game is late, only if it’s great.

which is true i guess. i really don't see a lot of fondness for jay around here. lulz.

 

[Azzure]

People like to direct blame at a public face. Jay's face was prime fodder, especially after the Brevik incident. In reality, Jay is not the all-powerful singular creator of all of Diablo 3's features, and design. Blizzard make decisions based on team consensus, the job of the game director is to just bring everything and everyone together, not override those decisions.

 

[Steven Hazani]

And why is that? Cause there was never a game like Diablo. That has so passionate fanbase, no matter if they hate it or like it. People care about the game like none other. But the group is huge. Single-Players, traders, hardcore, ladder - they simply can't agree all. But this does not make any of this groups more special. And that's tough for developers.

Souls fanbase beats the ever living **** out of D3 player base. It's also much less divided, and most of the ones that did have a problem with it didn't end up just writing it off.

 

[mr punk]

People like to direct blame at a public face. Jay's face was prime fodder, especially after the Brevik incident. In reality, Jay is not the all-powerful singular creator of all of Diablo 3's features, and design. Blizzard make decisions based on team consensus, the job of the game director is to just bring everything and everyone together, not override those decisions.

true, but whether it was jay, his team or blizz. players hilariously praised him blindly pre-release before he actually accomplished something worth praising. lulz..but i knew what jay and his team was smoking the first time he said a noob must never be confused in a blizz game.

Souls fanbase beats the ever living **** out of D3 player base. It's also much less divided, and most of the ones that did have a problem with it didn't end up just writing it off.

exactly, but it's no surprise. they earned it. i can't imagine some of FromSoft recent comments about DS2 going over well if their player base was like the diablo player base. however, when a team delivers on two of the best games this gen. they earn an amount of leeway and credibility built upon actual and tangible accomplishments rather than a michael bay-esque game trailers with "fu#k-yeah! that's awesum!"action sequences and all the soothing, but empty promises, puffery, and self-promotion a marketing machine can buy.

 

[HardRock]

players hilariously praised him blindly pre-release before he actually accomplished something worth praising. lulz.

Lulz indeed. Look up his previous work to see why people were so excited about him being on the D3 team.

 

[mr punk]

Lulz indeed. Look up his previous work to see why people were so excited about him being on the D3 team.

don't care about his past work. which is all the more reason for me not to drink the kool-aid, buy on day one and blindly give him credit for past laurels. but hey, i'm sure your line of reasoning worked out well for you people. oh wait...

Hey now, CoH was a great game.

i just looked that game up. josh was lead designer for that game? lulz..oh, wow.

 

[HardRock]

Though it is still kinda weird that Blizzard tapped a guy with experience mostly on RTS games to head up an ARPG team.

Fresh perspective and all that. We don't know what went on exactly before the game got rebooted like a gazillion times and before Jay got on the team.

 

[Azzure]

Not to be a jerk or anything, but if you do a bit of digging, you'll notice that most of the D3 team are beginner-devs who have never shipped a AAA game before. Jay Wilson was the most senior member of the team (Duh, game director) and his credentials are not that strong at all (was a designer for CoH and WH40k), compared to other Blizzard dudes on different teams.

Not saying that's why D3 was as bad as it was, but being a big believer in the power of experience in all areas of life, one has to wonder. I personally think Jay W is a much better developer than most people think he is. I can't say the same for the rest of the D3 dev team. Except maybe Wyatt, who is clearly talented.

 

[Mortalo]

Don't forget what people created Diablo I. They did not had much experience either. Ridley Scott when he was doing Alien was fresh also. You need to give people chance. And see how fun combat they did in D3.

 

[mr punk]

Jay was "senior designer" (whatever that means) on Company of Heroes. (I realized that you may have misinterpreted CoH to be City of Heroes, which, no.)

according to the mobygames credits. josh was "lead designer" for the CoH team and jay was "senior designer" for relic Studios. also, jay was part of a team of designers on WH40K. apparently, there was no lead designer.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/company-of-heroes/credits

Though it is still kinda weird that Blizzard tapped a guy with experience mostly on RTS games to head up an ARPG team.

well, it's not an unusual or necessarily a bad choice. hopefully, if a game is fortunate. it has a director who can steer and mold the development of the game into a highly focused vision. the souls series was very lucky in this instance and others. OTOH, a project can be unlucky and get the opposite result. which is why AAA games spend so much money on marketing rather than leave it to chance.

Don't forget what people created Diablo I. They did not had much experience either. Ridley Scott when he was doing Alien was fresh also. You need to give people chance. And see how fun combat they did in D3.

true, but diablo 1/2 was made in different eras and circumstances. game development isn't as free-wheeling as it used to be at blizz. they develop games like other AAA companies and in today's the AAA game development. upper management and the marketing guys decide what audience their game is targeting, how many hours of content the game will contain, how it will be presented and marketed to the public, how much and what kind DLC or micro transactions will be offered, etc, etc before the game is greenlit for development.

 

[Mortalo]

This is no secret that D3 took a hit because of current way of doing AAA games. They still succeded in some areas.