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Blizz needs to stop Rust Storm.

Discussion in 'Diablo 2 Community Forum' started by Phyrexial, May 28, 2005.

  1. Phyrexial

    Phyrexial Diabloii.Net Member

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    Blizz needs to stop Rust Storm.

    I've been thinking about the game mechanics of D2 and was thinking how you could possibly salvage this game from its current ditch due to all the dupes/hacks/etc.

    Hacks are harder to deal with, but dupes aren't to an extent. If you think about it, Blizz is actually helping to fund the dupers and item shops and making life harder for your average legit player. By making runes poof, the players that bought them will simply buy new ones to replace them. Thus putting more poofing runes on the market and more money into the duper's pockets. By having more poofing runes on the market, players cannot safely trade for high runes because they will most likely poof.

    If they stopped their supposed counter-measure, Rust Storm, then the realms would become saturated with dupes. However, the dupes would be just as good as legit items to your average player since they would be permanent. Eventually, this would bring their price down as supply goes up and demand goes down and then no one would buy gear anymore as you could trade for it in game without too much hassle. I'm sure there would be an initial surge in the sale of duped gear, but that would subside and I think we'd be better off.

    Actually, one other idea that mcm suggested was to make high runes available at vendors for gold. Alot though, like a full inventory of a level 90+ char worth of gold. I think legit players would rejoice at the ability to get legit runes with a little bit of work.

    I'm sure there are a ton of flaws in both of those ideas, but I can't come up with one right now so I present them to the forum to be ripped apart and critiqued. I know Blizz doesn't care about D2 anymore so neither will happen, but just dream with me here.
     
  2. Omikron8

    Omikron8 Diabloii.Net Member

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    Having Blizzard make (as it is now) near non-existent drop rates for high runes (vex+) while releasing tons of runewords with multiple high end runes required is idiotic, and that is an understatement.
     
  3. Phyrexial

    Phyrexial Diabloii.Net Member

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    Creating more demand for high runes while the ability to get high runes is largely limited to duped runes from item shops.

    Hmmm... didn't someone have a conspiracy theory about Blizz making money off of this?
     
  4. Dredd

    Dredd D3 Off Topic Moderator

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    I'm sorry but I disagree. The duping bs needs to be kept in check. Remove Rust Storm, and there are practically no consequences to cheating left. The "surge in sales of duped gear" will not subside. Instead - since it will become even easier to get away with - it will go on and on until the realms are so choked full of duped goods that whatever trading economy we have will just collapse entirely. Need a Ber? Sure, Gosu_Haxx0rz69 here will dupe you ten - and why the heck not? They're not going to disappear. Now we can all have Enigmas!

    It just doesn't work, Phyrexial. I know it's always the legit players that suffer the most from this kind of crap, but IMO the consequences of letting the dupers have free reign over Battle.net are far worse than having a few goodies go poof on you.

    As much as it might suck, the best way to protect yourself from poofage is to stop trading for runes above Gul/Vex. I know how purdy those shiny high-end runewords are, but it's not like they are absolutely essential to thrive in hell. Those things are supposed to be ultra-rare anyway. If you insist on trading for questionable goods, be prepared to suffer the consequences. Easy come, easy go.

    The only problem with that idea is that the amount of work involved for such an immense reward is negligable. I can make 3 million + gold in half an hour tops - I used to do it all the time to gamble for craftable caster ammys.

    A better solution (maybe) would be to tweak the drop rate of those runes a bit - or give the Countess (and maybe even the Hellforge) a slightly wider range of rune drop capacity. I'd be hesistant to take either measure though - runes are supposed to be freakishly rare.

    I think we need to at least consider the (awful) possibility that we're not all supposed to be running around wearing Enigma and duo-wielding BoTD + Last Wish while your merc gets CoH, Doom, a partridge in a pear tree, the kitchen sink, Jimmy Hoffa's wallet and lord knows what else. :lol: (awesome run-on sentence, Dredd. Good work.)
     
  5. Phyrexial

    Phyrexial Diabloii.Net Member

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    You certainly bring up valid points Dredd. However, I feel that we're way past the point of "this gear is supposed to be rare" type of mindset. I would have totally agreed with you pre-dupe craze, I believe that is how it should be. If it were up to me, people would stare in awe when they saw an Enigma.

    The thing is, the realms are already practically saturated with dupes. The vast majority of players DO already have tons of the high level runewords and multiple mules full of high runes. When people use high runes as currency and toss around offers of 40 HRs for things, you know things are way out of hand. The only people suffering is the legit players. As it stands now, there are no repercussions for duping. The dupers don't care that they poof, they just need to sell them quickly. As I already stated, they probably are happy they poof so they have customers coming back to them.

    If you wanted to actually combat dupes, I would totally be in favor of Blizzard taking all the realms (or one at a time) offline one day a week and just wiping that realm entirely clean of dupes. I don't know how long it takes to scan every single account on a realm, I'd imagine its alot of time. Still, even if Blizzard said every week the realms would be down 1-2 days a week to completely cleanse the realms I would be happy. I don't think many people would line up to buy dupes if they only get to keep them for 2-3 days at a time. This most likely takes a considerable amount of time to setup as well as some money, so I doubt Blizz would ever consider it.

    I have access to another set of CD keys since my cousin quit the game so I rush my own mules for forges. I can get the low-mid runes. However, cubing upwards from the Gul/Vex range takes a long time to get those higher runes. You may not need those high runewords, but I practically only play this game to PvP and when you do that it is necessarry. In all my time of playing I've put together one decent dueler, and that was because I found a Ber and cubed up to an Ohm.

    As for the buying runes idea, perhaps allow that 3 million gold to net you an Um rune or so then? At least you would be guaranteed to be working towards something rather than just hoping you'll get lucky.

    EDIT: Just crunched some numbers, it's 4096 Um runes for a Zod. 3 million gold = 30 minutes of work, so that would mean 2048 hours of pure goldfinding for a zod. Assuming a player does 2 hours a day, that's 1024 days which is roughly 3 years. I hardly think that's fair.

    Redoing those calculations if every 30 minutes you netted yourself a Vex rune, it takes 128 Vex runes to make a Zod which means 64 hours worth of work. Again, at 2 hours a day that would be 32 days or roughly a month. Still, I hardly find it fair. Because each rune we move up cuts the time in half if my numbers are correct, I think 3 million gold for an Ohm rune would be fine. That would take you 16 days or a little over two weeks worth of work to get a single Zod.

    I just think that unless a means to completely stop duping happens (unlikely) that the best course of action would be to change the game itself so that the duping is no longer lucrative. The realms are already saturated but the stockpile of runes is constantly shrinking which allows the market for dupes to continue. To restore order you either need to stop the cheaters or give the legits the means to let the legits compete with the cheaters. Blizz seems incapable of stopping the cheaters, hence my recomendations.
     
  6. Tarantella

    Tarantella Diabloii.Net Member

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    Well , I do wonder, when D2 was in construction ,whether the concept of possible duping was looked into and whether they considered ways of combating it.

    Scanning the realms completely once a week seems OTT but if they had considered putting a neutral NPC in the game as a go between trader then perhaps items placed in that NPCs 'exchange' window could have been scanned.
     
  7. Dawnmaster

    Dawnmaster Diabloii.Net Member

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    For the most, I agree with Dredd. However, I do have some points to add (after having read all the posts in this thread).

    Isn't Ruststorm something similar to this? When they launch it (they only times I know they do is at a Ladder reset) every dupe or item that has a dupe socketed in it, poofs (or the socket only?). Runes poof anyway when you take them into a new game or when an item enters a game with the original.

    You're making a HUGE calculation mistake here. I present you with the next numbers: most players don't play for 2 hours, but will be closer to hitting 10 hours per day. Now imagine getting an Um every 30 minutes? By the end of the day, you got 20 Um runes (keep in mind that nobody cubes them up to Zod, even if you have 2000 Ums) so you can trade 3 Ums for an Ist, and 3 Ist go for a Vex and a Vex + Ist can go for any other High Rune. So in the end, it only costed you 12 Ums, or about 6 hours of work goldfinding.

    So, even the Um idea you had is too ridiculous to be feasible.
     
  8. Dredd

    Dredd D3 Off Topic Moderator

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    Well, PvP-wise are you a dueler or a PKer? If you are a dueler, it's not that difficult to find membership in a clan with rules that level the playing field. If you're a PKer, I admit that's a serious problem. But the answer is still not to simply say, "aw screw it" and disable Rust Storm.

    There might not be a permanent answer to the duping problem. This game is apparantly very easy to exploit. Maybe it's the way the game itself is coded, maybe it's the way Battle.net functions (or dysfunctions as is the case sometimes), maybe it's Blizzard's genius idea that their game didn't need any sort of dedicated anti-hacking staff (apparantly they didn't learn their lesson after the mess that D1 became).

    Whatever the case may be, duping always has and probably always will haunt D2 for the rest of its online existance. Dumping Rust Storm is just going to make things worse, not better - particularly if you enjoy trading (which, for many of us, is a major source of fun).


    Well, Dawn's all ready sank this ship, but just to add my 2 cents, I would exploit this in two ways.

    1.) I would spend my millions buying nothing but rals. Having only to bother trading for PAmethysts and junk jewels (much cheaper), I could make a killing selling godly amulets on BNet. A single good +2 pally amulet would easily get me my choice of high runes.

    2.) For non-high rune purchases, Ist is the standard currency. If I can make enough cash to buy an Um every 30 minutes, that's an Ist in two hours - a few of those could get me whatever items I wanted (at least until the market is so flooded that they lose their currency value entirely). Sorry man, gold is too easy to make for your idea to be viable. :(

    And as Dawn mentioned, I could shave off half an hour of work by just buying three Ums and trading those for an Ist - for as long as the market value held that is.

    Blizzard could always try to implement rune gambling. They show up as Els in the trade screen but there is x chance of it being something higher - how high it could potentially go would be level-dependent (thus perhaps encouraging players to keep leveling even into the coma-inducing late-90s) Set the gambling price at a flat one or two million and maybe - maybe - it would offer a legit player a decent alternative to trading for possible dupes.

    Unfortunately, that's the best idea I can come up with and I'm sure it can be picked apart in about 3 seconds. :p
     
  9. wheel-of-doom

    wheel-of-doom Diabloii.Net Member

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    If there were set gold prices for runes, the value of the runes would change, therefore a vex wouldn't equal a zod. Ist wouldn't be the currency anymore. Things would alter and shift so diablo 2 would become exactly as it is today. Diablo 2 will always be the same no matter how you slice it, unless of course it becomes like diablo 1 then, well it'll be like diablo 1.
     
  10. raffster

    raffster Diabloii.Net Member

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    Every item should have a gold equivalent.

    I think ANY item in the game SHOULD have a gold equivalent. That means that gold should be harder to get. All the Merchants should have a "SPECIAL items" section where they sell top-notch items like the Grandfather or the Windforce, even the high runes. Zod = 1,000,000,000 gold

    To amass gold in any difficulty level should be WAAAY harder so that collecting even 10,000 gold could take a whole day. Then, while it's going to be a little difficult to get 1 Billion gold pieces, AT LEAST YOU KNOW you're going to get that Zod one way or the other.

    This is one of the best ways to counteract duping. If anyone can get anything with gold, hard work pays off at the end -- no ifs and buts about it. No risk of getting cheated at forge runs, no risk in trading. You want that Zod, start collecting gold, that's all there is too it.

    Of course gold will now become the new dupers and Ebayers commodity (AS IT PROBABLY SHOULD) but heck, if you buy gold on Ebay or dupe for Gold, then that's as low as you can get. If you can't even work your butt off for something that you can be certain of then you should be completely ashamed of yourself.

    IMO majority of those who go the illegal way (like I once did) became sick and tired of:
    1. getting scammed,
    2. working for nothing (because of #1)
    3. too much uncertainty (1,000 legit MF runs and the best item you find is a so-so item like a 25 Maras or a GUL rune).

    I could think of a bunch of others but those are my top three thoughts on why people go illegal. Of course there's always going to be the lazy bunch. I for one wouldn't mind playing for a whole month if I know that, in the end, I'm getting all the runes for a BoTd.

    Just my 2cents. I think I posted something similar a long time ago.
     
  11. oscarmk1

    oscarmk1 Diabloii.Net Member

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    Well i dont play wow, but ive heard that there are like within game auctions that some players set up, where you can buy any item for gold or something of the sort.

    Anyway this wouldnt work on diablo, unless first they removed every single piece of gold from everyone on the realms, and then make gold much harder to find.
     
  12. Dawnmaster

    Dawnmaster Diabloii.Net Member

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    If they make it ladder only, it's feasible, since you start with nothing when it resets :rolleyes:
     
  13. oscarmk1

    oscarmk1 Diabloii.Net Member

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    yeah i suppose that would work too.
     
  14. BananaPancakes

    BananaPancakes Diabloii.Net Member

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    honestly i dont really care about the calcuations or w/e. its so stupid that blizzard does these purges and yet they make so many crazy runewords, like last wish. not everyone knows how to dupe, but most ppl just learn to accept it and that its the currency and that indicates ur rich. i only got 2 bers my whole time playin this season and 1 poofed, as well as another Lo the other day, which is a big blow to me.
    its not like they care about d2 anymore anyway, with wow.

    but i like the idea of earnin gold for runes..ALOTTA gold
     
  15. Seaskye

    Seaskye Diabloii.Net Member

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    I have to say the whole drop rate system needs an overhaul,, If I am playing Hell level what in the world do I want with normal or Blue items or cracked sashes for goodness sake!
    It is depressing to kill a boss and have him drop a few mana and life pots a tp scroll some gold and worthless junk, I say less drops for better items the higher your character level is and the difficulity.. They have that certain items cannot drop at low level they should also have that certain items don't drop at high levels.
    Playing Legit and maybe playing at most in a week a few hours I have no hope of ever getting the high end unique items, set pieces, runes , facets etc.
    The highest rune I have had is an Ist and I only got it in a cow game someone else overlooked, have an um as well. (not sure which is higher LOL )
    Blizzard has already abandon D1 to the hackers/dupers, is D2 Lod not far behind ?

    Seaskye
     
  16. ebyworx

    ebyworx Diabloii.Net Member

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    while Blizz has become more lax about the dupes/hacks you have to admit that for a game with no monthly cost and how many patches and ladder we are doing fairly well. while the system isn't perfect, the game is how old and while we complain about the problems, we still play it.

    I may not like the mass dupes, but when we went from .09 to .10 I lost so much high end gear I quit for almost a full year, and the only reason I came back was due to the fact that the high end gear is easier to get. I would not have come back if I was going to have to ebay to get items, but I want to be able to get the high end items.

    I guess what I am trying to say is that the system may not be perfect, but it is better then what D1 was.
     
  17. franzjosef

    franzjosef Diabloii.Net Member

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    I'm a historian by trade, not an economist. But it seems to me that in the long run, removing poofing would drive the dupers out of the market, in the long haul. I know there are some professional-grade economists who play this game, and I would appreciate their feedback.

    First, there would a surge in the amount supplied of dupes as well as in the amount of dupes demanded. As you effectively have an unlimited supply amount (no shortages), prices would tend to either remain stable or decline. At least, I fail to foresee a situation where pent-up demand could exceed the rate of growth in the supply side. (Presumably, with duping legal, there are those who would enter the marketplace as suppliers, as well as many more who would enter as buyers. Again, the supply is effectively unlimited.) In the long run, saturation being acheived, the amount demanded would decline to near-zero, and suppliers would exit the marketplace for lack of profit.

    That's my scenario; it may well be full of holes but I leave that for the audience to discuss.
     
  18. ebyworx

    ebyworx Diabloii.Net Member

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    the unfortunate part of this would be that if you needed an item it would be very hard to get it because dupers would have all lower lvl items to get said item. this system works if your willing to pay for items, it may be a very low price but it would still cost money.
     
  19. Phyrexial

    Phyrexial Diabloii.Net Member

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    First off, I was under the impression that dupes poofing ingame was a result of Rust Storm. That is what I want to stop.

    As was already stated above, the economy would change if this gold system was implemented. Within months, Zod would no longer be anywhere near equal to a Vex. 3 Um wouldn't equal an Ist and 3-4 Ist would no longer equal a high rune of choice. High runes in general would not be lumped together as an equal value commodity.

    I'm sure you aren't the only one with this idea, and I assure you that supply and demand would cause the price of those ammies to decline as well. Oddly enough, the best/most expensive gear would probably become insane rares. Good crafted amulets would still be a rarity despite the amount of times you would be able to craft also, and seeing as how you practically never seem the same one twice or get "perfect" mods, you would always have an incentive to continue crafting.

    As for your rune gambling idea, I think it would be an okay idea to implement next to mcm's vendor sold runes. Kinda like a "I'm feeling lucky" button. I just don't like the idea of so much chance involved. That is why so many people hate the current drop system. You can run act bosses and superuniques for months and never find a rune above Um and or even a really nice unique like a good CoA. With the vendor sold rune idea, you know you could slowly but steadily work towards something.

    Lower level items could be found yourself via MFing or traded for since I doubt dupers would be able to sell the lower end uniques. You wouldn't ever need to "buy" anything from dupers either since you would be able to get your own LEGIT runes from vendors for gold. This would take dupers entirely out of the equation. You would be able to get an Enigma or Last Wish or whatever on your own and not have to worry about being scammed or having them poof. You could speed it up if you find an insane rare or craft a really nice ammy and trade that to someone for their runes. Sooner or later all duped runes would poof and the supply of them would eventually trickle to a stop since no one or very few would buy them.
     
  20. itsPizzarific

    itsPizzarific Banned

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    people wouldnt make botd anymore if that happened. hr's should have equal value or else the value of different high rw's would go up and down like crazy.
     

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