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Best weapon for Poison Nova Necromancer

Discussion in 'Necromancer' started by Ghist, Feb 2, 2004.

  1. Ghist

    Ghist IncGamers Member

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    Best weapon for Poison Nova Necromancer

    A statement in another thread made me curious about which weapon of choice is best for Poison Nova necromancer. The items mentioned in that thread were perfect "White" runeword wand, perfect Death's Web and Blackdogs Sharp. So I ended up doing a small comparison.



    PN(20) = 356-390 (No synergies)
    PN(20) = 1781-1953 (PD=20, PE=20) base with Death's Web
    PN(23) = 2484-2677 (PD=23, PE=23) base with best 2 sock
    PN(24) = 2791-2990 (PD=24, PE=24) base with blackdogs

    Add to those the +skills from the weapon:

    PN(24) = 2218-2390 (PD=20, PE=20) base with Death's Web
    PN(26) = 3114-3307 (PD=23, PE=23) base with best white
    PN(24) = 2791-2990 (PD=24, PE=24) base with blackdogs

    Then add max skills from inventory (+10 P&B, +1 all)

    PN(35) = 4687-4859 (PD=20, PE=20) with Death's Web
    PN(37) = 5739-5932 (PD=23, PE=23) with best white
    PN(35) = 5437-5636 (PD=24, PE=24) with blackdogs

    Then add jewelry (2 SoJ, 1 Maras = +4 to all)

    PN(39) = 5562-5734 (PD=20, PE=20) with Death's Web
    PN(41) = 6719-6912 (PD=23, PE=23) with best white
    PN(39) = 6452-6651 (PD=24, PE=24) with blackdogs

    So the rest of the slots affecting damage/+skills/-resists are:

    Gloves, Body Armor, Shield, Belt. Since there are so many choices I'll

    list few cases:


    Case 1(max +skills, TO gloves, Arkaine's or other +2 skills armor, Shako, Boneflame, Arachnid = +8 skills and +25% damage. All eligible items socketed with -5/+5 poison facets)

    PN(47) = 7312-7484 (PD=20, PE=20) with Death's Web
    PN(49) = 8679-8872 (PD=23, PE=23) with best white
    PN(47) = 8482-8681 (PD=24, PE=24) with Blackdogs

    Result after +% poison damage

    PN(47) = 10602-10851 (PD=20, PE=20, +45%) with Death's Web
    PN(49) = 12150-12421 (PD=23, PE=23, +40%) with best white
    PN(47) = 12299-12587 (PD=24, PE=24, +45%) with Blackdogs

    Final result after -% to poison resist to 0% poison resistant monster

    PN(47) = 18023-18448 (PD=20, PE=20, +45%, -70%) with Death's Web
    PN(49) = 13973-14284 (PD=23, PE=23, +40%, -15%) with best white
    PN(47) = 14759-15104 (PD=24, PE=24, +45%, -20%) with Blackdogs


    Case 2(max +damage and -resist, TO gloves, "Bramble" runeword armor, Shako, TO Wing, TO Girth = +2 skills, +2 P&B, -25% resists, +75% damage. All eligible items socketed with -5/+5 poison facets)

    PN(43) = 6437-6609 (PD=20, PE=20) with Death's Web
    PN(45) = 7700-7892 (PD=23, PE=23) with best white
    PN(43) = 7467-7666 (PD=24, PE=24) with Blackdogs

    Result after +% poison damage

    PN(43) = 12230-12557 (PD=20, PE=20, +90%) with Death's Web
    PN(45) = 14245-14600 (PD=23, PE=23, +85%) with best white
    PN(43) = 14187-14565 (PD=24, PE=24, +90%) with Blackdogs

    Final result after -% to poison resist to 0% poison resistant monster

    PN(43) = 23237-23858 (PD=20, PE=20, +90%, -90%) with Death's Web
    PN(45) = 19231-19710 (PD=23, PE=23, +85%, -35%) with best white
    PN(43) = 19862-20391 (PD=24, PE=24, +90%, -40%) with Blackdogs


    Case 3(TO set solution= +3 skills, +2 P&B, -25% resists, +25% damage. All eligible items socketed with -5/+5 poison facets)

    PN(44) = 6656-6828 (PD=20, PE=20) with Death's Web
    PN(46) = 7944-8137 (PD=23, PE=23) with best white
    PN(44) = 7721-7920 (PD=24, PE=24) with Blackdogs

    Result after +% poison damage

    PN(44) = 9651-9901 (PD=20, PE=20, +45%) with Death's Web
    PN(46) = 11122-11392 (PD=23, PE=23, +40%) with best white
    PN(44) = 11195-11484 (PD=24, PE=24, +45%) with Blackdogs

    Final result after -% to poison resist to 0% poison resistant monster

    PN(44) = 18819-19307 (PD=20, PE=20, +45%, -95%) with Death's Web
    PN(46) = 15571-15949 (PD=23, PE=23, +40%, -40%) with best white
    PN(44) = 16233-16652 (PD=24, PE=24, +45%, -45%) with Blackdogs


    I did not calculate the approximate -63% to poison resist from Lower Resist curse. Needless to say it will in 0% resistant monster case tip the scale to perfect "White" and Blackdogs. In case of more resistant monsters the trend starts to favour Death's Web more. In case of 110% poison resistant monster Death's Web setup with LR will do almost normal damage against that monster.

    Another item that I did not count into comparisons was magical necro head as I do not know what's the maximum there and if it's possible to get +3 P&B, +3 PN, +3 PE, +3 PD necro head. I also used mara's instead of +3 to P&B skills amulet and Shako instead of +3 P&B circlet, which would have raised skill levels by 2. So this is not totally complete comparison, but should give some impression on effects of poison necro weapon selection.


    I was quite surprised on how well Blackdogs Sharp was doing. Case 1 is compared here just for the reason people are always wondering whether or not go for +skills instead of direct +% to damage or -% to resists gear. Case 2 is obviously meant for the highest damage output while also being hardest setup to assemble. Case 3 is nicely balanced setup with nice abilities of a full TO set. I especially like to use over 2k damage firewall by alternating between casting FW and PN.
     
  2. gvandale

    gvandale IncGamers Member

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    Just a quick question:
    In doing your calculations, did you take into account the +skills for your synergies?

    g

    :yep:
     
  3. Peacrusher

    Peacrusher IncGamers Member

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    OUCH you makin my head hurt!!!!1

    Good numbers...

    I would still kill for a BLACKBOG's though... I think your spelling is a lil off.... I could be wrong though...

    NICE WORK
     
  4. Ghist

    Ghist IncGamers Member

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    I did, synergy levels are displayed on each row after the damage.
     
  5. gvandale

    gvandale IncGamers Member

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    AFAIK, with exception to the bug with charges, synergy bonus's stop at base slvl 20. So if that is the case, then your numbers would be off some. But regardless, very good info.

    g

    :yep:
     
  6. Ghist

    Ghist IncGamers Member

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    I was kinda hoping someone would correct it if I was wrong. It changes the picture quite much really. I'll redo those calculations by Wednesday. Hopefully someone else can point out best possible magic necrohead for me. Since direct +skills do not affect already maxed synergy bonuses, I guess +3 P&B +3 PN head would be the best. I'll also add those missing LR calculations.
     
  7. MelFrank

    MelFrank IncGamers Member

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    Ghist, I'm a bit confused as to your math, as both Blackbogs and Death's Web offer the same bonus to Poison Nova. You could argue that Deaths Web is quite superior, adding +4 to all Bone/Poison skills.
    Please correct me if I'm missing something obvious here, it's possible. :)
    At any rate, I think it's important to look at what really makes Poison Nova viable as a skill, and that is reducing enemy poison resistance. It's here where Death's Web kills the competition.
    slvl24 Poison Nova provides a base damage of 2406-2578, or 2492 average over two seconds.
    I'm not going to describe the math here, only the results. I would be happy to clarify if someone wishes.
    It's also important to remember that almost all monsters in Act V have some level of poison resistance, so I will list several examples.
    Other equipment is not relevant because both weapons would get the same bonus's applied.
    Also included is a slvl15 Lower Resist (-60%), I can't imagine a Poison Nova Necromancer that would not use it.

    Enemy resist - 0%
    Blackbogs: 3987 over 2 seconds
    Death's Web: 4984 over 2 seconds

    Enemy resist - 25%
    Blackbogs: 3364 over 2 seconds
    Death's Web: 4610 over 2 seconds

    Enemy resist - 50%
    Blackbogs: 2741 over 2 seconds
    Death's Web: 3987 over 2 seconds

    Enemy resist - 75%
    Blackbogs: 2118 over 2 seconds
    Death's Web: 3364 over 2 seconds

    Enemy resist - 100%
    Blackbogs: 299 over 2 seconds (not a typo)
    Death's Web: 1545 over 2 seconds

    The above was calculated using a perfect Death's Web as an example.
    Death's Web keeps a pretty healthy lead throughout, and especially against immunes. Of course Death's Web is somewhat difficult to obtain, much more so than Blackbog's.
    I wish my Poison Nova post had not been killed by the server recently, it had a lot of good information in it.

    Mel
     
  8. Patsy

    Patsy IncGamers Member

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    Fellow Necromancers,

    One of the main concerns that I always have over 'equipment builds' is the availability of the equipment as well as the ability of it to be used, be it various characteristic restrictions or level restrictions.

    While it would be quite nice to have 'Enigma' or 'Doom' runewords, how easy is it to find the required runes? The same applies to all of these 'mythic' items for a Necromancer. Blackbog's is significantly easier to come across than many of the other items that were mentioned, and therefore, in my opinion, a better choice, simply because of that very reason! Who knows how many times one might be offed by some offending creature before any of those items can be found?

    In summary, if whatever you find can be useful, then for goodness sake, use it! Don't wait for the 'perfect item' when you're constantly being killed off for want of it!

    Egad...

    -Patsy
    "Help! I'm a Necromancer stuck in a Druid's body!"
     
  9. Ghist

    Ghist IncGamers Member

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    I'm actually well aware of the effect Death's Web on resistant monsters. I read your thread too and liked it a lot.

    If you checked all the other messages after my first one, you'll notice that I made a mistake of calculating direct skill bonuses to synergies. This changes the picture a lot. I'll post update calculations later today with a bit twinking on other equipment selection. I'll also add LR to calculations.

    It's also my opinion that Death's Web is superior to any other PN necromancer weapon, which is the reason I started this thread
     
  10. Ghist

    Ghist IncGamers Member

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    I agree, although I do think that Blackbog and similar level "White" wands are easier to get. Way easier in fact if compared to good Death's Web. Death's Web is similar to Griffon's Eye and Death's Fathom in rarity, usefulness and pricing. Meaning they are most valuable and hardest to get items for the respective characters that can put those to good use.
     
  11. Liquid_Evil

    Liquid_Evil IncGamers Member

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    Very neat thread, I'll be eager to read the updated one. This go me thinking about what would be best for my Necro. He uses Death's Web and Trangs gloves/belt/wing, but I also have a +2 PB/+3 PN shrunken head. Would the extra 3 Poison Nova points from the rare outweigh the -25 Enemy Resist from Trangs wing in your eyes?
     
  12. Diminished

    Diminished IncGamers Member

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    I always assumed Death's Web was ultimate because of resist reduction.
     
  13. Ghist

    Ghist IncGamers Member

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    It is, you'll see that clearly in the updated version (also 50% longer as more cases are compared and some of the items have changed too). I originally assumed I would get it done yesterday evening, but something came up. I'll post it this evening then.

    There are some specific cases when it's not the best, but those are rare and always depend on other gear you are using, monsters having no poison resistance of just a very small amount and you using high level LR curse.
     
  14. Ghist

    Ghist IncGamers Member

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    So here's the update. It's a bit heavy reading though I admit.

    Direct skill bonuses to specific skill:

    PN(20) = 356-390 (No synergies)
    PN(20) = 1781-1953 (PD=20, PE=20) base with Death's Web
    PN(23) = 2218-2390 (PD=20, PE=20) base with best 2 sock
    PN(24) = 2406-2578 (PD=20, PE=20) base with Blackbogs

    Add to those the +skills from the weapon:

    PN(24) = 2406-2578 (PD=20, PE=20) base with Death's Web
    PN(26) = 2781-2953 (PD=20, PE=20) base with best white
    PN(24) = 2406-2578 (PD=20, PE=20) base with Blackbogs

    Then add max skills from inventory (+10 P&B, +1 all)

    PN(35) = 4687-4859 (PD=20, PE=20) with Death's Web
    PN(37) = 5125-5296 (PD=20, PE=20) with best white
    PN(35) = 4687-4859 (PD=20, PE=20) with Blackbogs

    Then add jewelry (2 SoJ, +3 P&B amulet = +2 to all, +3 P&B)

    PN(40) = 5781-5953 (PD=20, PE=20) with Death's Web
    PN(42) = 6218-6390 (PD=20, PE=20) with best white
    PN(40) = 5781-5953 (PD=20, PE=20) with Blackbogs

    So the rest of the slots affecting damage/+skills/-resists are: Gloves, Body Armor, Shield, Belt. Since there are so many choices I'll list few cases:


    Case 1(max +skills, TO gloves, Arkaine's or other +2 skills armor, +3 P&B circlet, magic necro head with +3 P&B and +3 PN, Arachnid and Call To Arms on weapon switch = +4 skills, +6 P&B skills, +3 PN and +25% damage. All eligible items socketed with -5/+5 poison facets)

    PN(53) = 8625-8796 (PD=20, PE=20) with Death's Web
    PN(55) = 9062-9234 (PD=20, PE=20) with best white
    PN(53) = 8625-8796 (PD=20, PE=20) with Blackbogs

    Result after +% poison damage

    PN(53) = 12506-12754 (PD=20, PE=20, +45%) with Death's Web
    PN(55) = 12686-12927 (PD=20, PE=20, +40%) with best white
    PN(53) = 12506-12754 (PD=20, PE=20, +45%) with Blackbogs

    Final result after -% to poison resist to 0% poison resistant monster

    PN(53) = 21260-21681 (PD=20, PE=20, +45%, -70%) with Death's Web
    PN(55) = 14589-14866 (PD=20, PE=20, +40%, -15%) with best white
    PN(53) = 15007-15305 (PD=20, PE=20, +45%, -20%) with Blackbogs

    Modified result after -% to poison resist to 0% poison resistant monster with -60% LR

    PN(53) = 25012-25508 (PD=20, PE=20, +45%, -100%) with Death's Web
    PN(55) = 22201-22622 (PD=20, PE=20, +40%, -75%) with best white
    PN(53) = 22511-22957 (PD=20, PE=20, +45%, -80%) with Blackbogs

    Modified final result after -% to poison resist to 75% poison resistant monsters like Venom Lords and Oblivion Knights

    PN(53) = 11881-12116 (PD=20, PE=20, +45%, +5%) with Death's Web
    PN(55) = 5074-5171 (PD=20, PE=20, +40%, +60%) with best white
    PN(53) = 5628-5739 (PD=20, PE=20, +45%, +55%) with Blackbogs

    Modified final result after -% to poison resist to 110% poison resistant monsters like Undead Soulkillers and Bonemages. A -60% to resistances Lower Resist is used on this example to break immunity. After LR resistance is 98% on those monsters:

    PN(53) = 9004-9183 (PD=20, PE=20, +45%, +28%) with Death's Web
    PN(55) = 2157-2198 (PD=20, PE=20, +40%, +83%) with best white
    PN(53) = 2751-2806 (PD=20, PE=20, +45%, +78%) with Blackbogs


    Case 2(max +damage and -resist, TO gloves, "Bramble" runeword armor, Rare circlet with +2 necro skills and 2 sockets, TO Wing, TO Girth = +2 skills, +2 P&B, -25% resists, +75% damage. All eligible items socketed with -5/+5 poison facets)

    PN(44) = 6656-6828 (PD=20, PE=20) with Death's Web
    PN(46) = 7093-7265 (PD=20, PE=20) with best white
    PN(44) = 6656-6828 (PD=20, PE=20) with Blackbogs

    Result after +% poison damage

    PN(44) = 12979-13315 (PD=20, PE=20, +95%) with Death's Web
    PN(46) = 13477-13804 (PD=20, PE=20, +90%) with best white
    PN(44) = 12979-13315 (PD=20, PE=20, +95%) with Blackbogs

    Final result after -% to poison resist to 0% poison resistant monster

    PN(44) = 25309-25964 (PD=20, PE=20, +95%, -95%) with Death's Web
    PN(46) = 18868-19326 (PD=20, PE=20, +90%, -40%) with best white
    PN(44) = 18820-19307 (PD=20, PE=20, +95%, -45%) with Blackbogs

    Modified result after -% to poison resist to 0% poison resistant monster with -60% LR

    PN(44) = 25958-26630 (PD=20, PE=20, +95%, -100%) with Death's Web
    PN(46) = 26954-27608 (PD=20, PE=20, +90%, -100%) with best white
    PN(44) = 25958-26630 (PD=20, PE=20, +95%, -100%) with Blackbogs

    Modified final result after -% to poison resist to 75% poison resistant monsters like Venom Lords and Oblivion Knights

    PN(44) = 15575-15978 (PD=20, PE=20, +95%, -20%) with Death's Web
    PN(46) = 8760-8973 (PD=20, PE=20, +90%, +35%) with best white
    PN(44) = 9085-9321 (PD=20, PE=20, +95%, +30%) with Blackbogs

    Modified final result after -% to poison resist to 110% poison resistant monsters like Undead Soulkillers and Bonemages. A -60% to resistances Lower Resist is used on this example to break immunity. After LR resistance is 98% on those monsters:

    PN(44) = 12590-12916 (PD=20, PE=20, +95%, +3%) with Death's Web
    PN(46) = 5660-5798 (PD=20, PE=20, +90%, +58%) with best white
    PN(44) = 6100-6258 (PD=20, PE=20, +95%, +53%) with Blackbogs


    Case 3(TO set solution= +3 skills, +2 P&B, -25% resists, +25% damage. All eligible items socketed with -5/+5 poison facets)

    PN(45) = 6875-7046 (PD=20, PE=20) with Death's Web
    PN(47) = 7312-7484 (PD=20, PE=20) with best white
    PN(44) = 6875-7046 (PD=20, PE=20) with Blackbogs

    Result after +% poison damage

    PN(45) = 9969-10217 (PD=20, PE=20, +45%) with Death's Web
    PN(47) = 10237-10478 (PD=20, PE=20, +40%) with best white
    PN(45) = 9969-10217 (PD=20, PE=20, +45%) with Blackbogs

    Final result after -% to poison resist to 0% poison resistant monster

    PN(45) = 19440-19923 (PD=20, PE=20, +45%, -95%) with Death's Web
    PN(47) = 14332-14669 (PD=20, PE=20, +40%, -40%) with best white
    PN(45) = 14455-14815 (PD=20, PE=20, +45%, -45%) with Blackbogs

    Modified result after -% to poison resist to 0% poison resistant monster with -60% LR

    PN(45) = 19938-20434 (PD=20, PE=20, +45%, -100%) with Death's Web
    PN(47) = 20474-20956 (PD=20, PE=20, +40%, -100%) with best white
    PN(45) = 19938-20434 (PD=20, PE=20, +45%, -100%) with Blackbogs

    Modified final result after -% to poison resist to 75% poison resistant monsters like Venom Lords and Oblivion Knights

    PN(45) = 11963-12260 (PD=20, PE=20, +45%, -20%) with Death's Web
    PN(47) = 6654-6811 (PD=20, PE=20, +40%, +35%) with best white
    PN(45) = 6978-7152 (PD=20, PE=20, +45%, +30%) with Blackbogs

    Modified final result after -% to poison resist to 110% poison resistant monsters like Undead Soulkillers and Bonemages. A -60% to resistances Lower Resist is used on this example to break immunity. After LR resistance is 98% on those monsters:

    PN(45) = 9670-9910 (PD=20, PE=20, +45%, +3%) with Death's Web
    PN(47) = 4300-4401 (PD=20, PE=20, +40%, +58%) with best white
    PN(45) = 4685-4802 (PD=20, PE=20, +45%, +53%) with Blackbogs



    Seems the only case when White or Blackbogs can barely edge out Death's Web is when facing 0% poison resistance monsters and using -60% LR. In case of more resistant monsters the trend starts to favour Death's Web heavily. In case of 110% poison resistant monster Death's Web setup with LR will do almost normal damage against that monster, which is 2-4 times higher than with other weapons depending on gear setup.

    Some examples on poison resistances on monsters in different popular areas:

    The Pit: +75%, 0%, +20%, +25%
    The Moo Moo Farm: +33%
    Travincal: +20%, +20%, +50%
    Chaos Sanctuary: 0%, +75%, +75%
    Throne of Destruction: +33%, +25%, +110%, +25%, +115%, +50%, +50%, +25%, +75%, +115%

    There are many other possible setups for gear. Someone might give a try to 6
    socket phaseblade with 6 5/5 poison facets in it too. So this is not totally
    complete comparison, but should give some impression on effects of poison
    necro weapon selection.

    I was quite surprised on how well Blackbogs Sharp was doing. Case 1 is
    compared here just for the reason people are always wondering whether or not go for +skills instead of direct +% to damage or -% to resists gear. Case 2 is obviously meant for the highest damage output while also being hardest
    setup to assemble. Case 3 is nicely balanced setup with nice abilities of a
    full TO set. I especially like to use over 2k damage firewall by alternating
    between casting FW and PN. First 2 cases are suffering some resistance problems with lightning especially.
     
  15. CosmoNova

    CosmoNova IncGamers Member

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    Re: Best weapon for Poison Nova Necromancer

    is it viable to have poison / summon nec, maxing PN synergies, 1pt CE, max RS, rest to SM, use a +3 PN wand as weapon? The most important thing is to use amp is the main curse, CE + amp as the main killer, while PN as a help? Can it be a cool cookie-cutter in HELL?

    Or... simply maxing CE and leave PN would be better...?
     
  16. zrk

    zrk IncGamers Member

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    Re: Best weapon for Poison Nova Necromancer

    for area cleaning lower res is generally better.. skels dont kill so fast as nova(except against a single target),
    but a +3pn wand sounds like untwinked build in which case pure skelliemancer self synergises much better(skels, ce, merc all easy toget strong)
     

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