Best weapon for Merc Infinity?

MageChick

Diabloii.Net Member
Best weapon for Merc Infinity?

Why is that most people (at least on US East SC) insist that an eth Colossus Voulge is the best weapon to build a merc infinity in? Its slow, short ranged and takes a lot of str to equip. I guess using andy's helm will get you around the str req'd. It seems to me that the Great poleaxe is probably the best option. I'd even rather have an Giant Thresher. I guess if range and speed aren't your thing I could see using a Cryptic Axe.

I just did a quick glance on two of my merc's stats. At level 76 he has 170 Str and 136 Dex. At level 90 my other merc has 195 Str and 157 Dex. What am I missing? Here's all the elite polearms.

Code:
 	             Damage	     Level Str  Dex  Range   Soc   Speed 

Ogre Axe        28 to 145 (86.5 Avg) 45    195    75     3    3   [0]Normal
Colossus Voulge 17 to 165 (91 Avg)   48    210    55     3    4   [10]Slow
Thresher        12 to 141 (76.5 Avg) 53    152    118    2    5   [-10]Fast
Cryptic Axe     33 to 150 (91.5 Avg) 59    165    103    4    5   [10]Slow
Great Poleaxe   46 to 127 (86.5 Avg) 63    179    99     5    6   [0]Normal
Giant Thresher  40 to 114 (77 Avg)   66    188    140    5    6   [-10]Fast
Infinity
4 Socket Polearms
Ber + Mal + Ber + Ist
50% Chance To Cast Level 20 Chain Lightning When You Kill An Enemy
Level 12 Conviction Aura When Equipped
+35% Faster Run/Walk
+255-325% Enhanced Damage (varies)
-(45-55)% To Enemy Lightning Resistance (varies)
40% Chance of Crushing Blow
Prevent Monster Heal
0.5-49.5 To Vitality (Based on Character Level)
30% Better Chance of Getting Magic Items
Level 21 Cyclone Armor (30 Charges)
 
Yeah, I made my Insight in a Colossus Voulge. I'm looking to, if I EVER get the runes for it, make an Infinity in a Colossus Voulge as well. I dunno, I just like it better. I guess your right in the fact that if you perfer speed then the Colossus isn't for you but...

is Merc effected by attack speed?
 

kuafu

Diabloii.Net Member
The main reason is that it's easy to get 4os from an eth CV, because you can simply Larzuk it. In addition, you can do that to an superior one for even higher damage. Eth GPA and CA are good, but you'll need some guts and luck to roll a 4os one.
Yes, Merc has IAS breakpoints too.
 

WrathTalon

Diabloii.Net Member
MageChick, I'm with you in puzzlement. Because as far as I can figure it, Colossus Voulge and Cryptic Axe are by far the two WORST polearms one can equip, based on damage output over time.

According to the German Weapon Calculator, here are the Frames per Attack and the corresponding Attacks per Second for the six polearms when put on an A2 merc. (Yes, PsychoSomatic, Merc attack speed is indeed affected by both base weapon speed and IAS from gear):

Thresher & Giant Thresh (-10): 7.5 frames per attack = 3.33 attacks per second
Ogre Axe & Great Polexe (0): 8 frames per attack = 3.1 attacks per second
Col. Voulge & Cryptic Axe (10): 9 frames per attack = 2.77 attacks per second

When their average damage per attack is multiplied by their attacks per second, we get the following total damage output:

T & GT: 256 per second
OA & GP: 268 per second
CV & CA: 253 per second

So in terms of base damage output over time, Ogre Axes and Great Poleaxes are far and away the most effective weapons, while Colossus Voulges and Cryptix Axes are the WEAKEST, with Threshers and Giant Threshers coming in the middle.

However, this is only taking base damage into account. It completely ignores the fact that faster weapons will trigger their various damage-enhancing mods more often (Crushing Blow on Infinity and Obedience, Critical Strike on Insight, Deadly Strike on Pride, Deadly Strike and Open Wounds on Doom, chance to cast Tornado and Orb on Rift, etc.).

When the runeword mods are taken into consideration, Threshers and Giant Threshers emerge as the clear winners, because of their faster swing.

On this score, Colossus Voulges and Cryptic Axes are DOUBLY the worst: they do the least base damage over time; AND, because they are the slowest, they trigger the yummy extra mods the least often.

So why do people rave about CVs and CAs, and ignore threshers and giant threshers? No idea. But it's fine by me. Makes it easier to trade for them. :smiley:
 

MageChick

Diabloii.Net Member
I think WrathTalon hit it right on the nose, but used the wrong IAS tables. (I've been guilty of that before myself - see the breakpoint thread stickied in the library. The merc IAS breakpoints in the meteorb guide are wrong.) I'm planning on equiping my merc with an Andy's Helm too - so I'll factor in the 20% ias to see if it changes.

Looking at the jab attacks (which are the majority of attacks at higher levels) you see that the WSM 0 hits the same breakpoint as the WSM -10 weapon. The WSM 10 weapons trail far behind. I won't bother with the damage per second, but the Great Poleaxe should come out well ahead.

(I'll just relist the base attack speed and the last breakpoint hit with 20 IAS. All coutesy of RTB)

Act 2 Merc Jab Attack WSM 10 fpa+ActionFrame
IAS frames ActionFrames
0 16 7,12
11 14 6,10
*next break point it at 22

Act 2 Merc Normal Attack WSM 10 fpa+ActionFrame
IAS frames ActionFrame
0 17 14
11 15 12
*next break point it at 22

Act 2 Merc Jab Attack WSM 0 fpa+ActionFrame
IAS frames ActionFrames
0 14 6,10
20 12 6,9

Act 2 Merc Normal Attack WSM 0 fpa+ActionFrame
IAS frames ActionFrame
0 15 12
18 13 11
*next break point is at 26

Act 2 Merc Jab Attack WSM -10 fpa+ActionFrame
IAS frames ActionFrames
0 13 6,10
18 12 5,8
*next break point is at 22

Act 2 Merc Normal Attack WSM -10 fpa+ActionFrame
IAS frames ActionFrame
0 14 11
16 12 10
*next break point is at 30
 

lagalot

Diabloii.Net Member
Id go with the Gpa or Gt for infinity however so far I havent been fortunate enough to find an etheral version of either. I have cubed an etheral thresher and Ca and both received one socket:sad:

The most common reason ppl make infinity in Cv is the availability imo.
 

emar

Diabloii.Net Member
I believe it is entirely based on how easy it is to obtain a CV (Lazruk) over the others, where you need to cube (as others have previously said).

Many of my Infinities are indeed in EthCV's. And honestly when you have them dupes you may as well blow them. I once read someone post "Anyone who deals in HRs knows there is no such thing as a wasted HR" and that is exactly it for me.

Besides, the strength requirement for me is negligible as my chars often go 90+, as do their mercs. Additionally, my merc isn't there to deal the damage. He is simply there to provide an aura or two. My thoughts are none of my characters should have a deep reliance on the merc to get through the game. This of course isn't always applicable for all of my untwinked characters.

So why do folks use CVs then? Because the feasibility in obtaining them. And honestly damage and range mean nothing to me on a merc. He is back-up, nothing more.
 
Yeah, I was thinking about trading my CV Insight for one with lower requirements. The 210 STR is pretty insane, my mercs at lvl 67 and its taking forever to lvl him and his STR is at 171 so...

I never knew the attack speed was effective towards mercs. I learn something new everyday on here, lol.
 

WrathTalon

Diabloii.Net Member
MageChick said:
I think WrathTalon hit it right on the nose, but used the wrong IAS tables. (I've been guilty of that before myself - see the breakpoint thread stickied in the library. The merc IAS breakpoints in the meteorb guide are wrong.)
Gah!! Man, I've been relying on the German Weapon Calculator for all my IAS/Breakpoint info for a while now... :cry: Is it wrong for other characters too, or just for the A2 merc and his jab?

MageChick, could you give me the link to the breakpoint thread you used?--I can't seem to find it anywhere on the site.


MageChick said:
Looking at the jab attacks (which are the majority of attacks at higher levels) you see that the WSM 0 hits the same breakpoint as the WSM -10 weapon. The WSM 10 weapons trail far behind. I won't bother with the damage per second, but the Great Poleaxe should come out well ahead.
Good to know, good to know... Hm, I wonder: since I socketed my merc's Andy's Visage with an IAS jewel, for 35% IAS, would a WSM 0 Great Poleaxe still hit the same breakpoint as the WSM -10 Thresher he's using now? I must find out.

So glad this question came up.
 
Bladewind said:
Sticking an Andy visage plus Duriel shell / CoH pretty much give him enough strength at higher levels.
I highly doubt I'll ever get my hands on an Andy again. I had one last year before I quit. I have a Duriel Shell now, guess I'll go huntin for an Andy lol.
 

Dystopianday

Diabloii.Net Member
The +50 strength on a 3 pamethyst Gris armor will get your merc up to CV strength easily.

Unfortunately, he'll tend to die.

So yeah. After going with the flow and making my first 2 infinities CVs, I'm making them in whatever other eth elite I can now. And I traded my CV infinities for thresher infinities - with an organ set and and Doom ettin axe thrown it.

Not much use for a ettin axe doom, but hey. Infinity for a better infinity + stuff. I win.
 

WrathTalon

Diabloii.Net Member
FrostBurn, thanks for the link! Now I can answer the question I posed earlier (in case anyone cares):

WrathTalon said:
Good to know, good to know... Hm, I wonder: since I socketed my merc's Andy's Visage with an IAS jewel, for 35% IAS, would a WSM 0 Great Poleaxe still hit the same breakpoint as the WSM -10 Thresher he's using now? I must find out.
So with 35% IAS from gear (Andy's Visage socketed with an IAS jewel), my A2 merc hits the following attack speeds:

WSM 10 (Col. Voulge, Cryptic Axe): 12-frame attack
WSM 0 (Ogre Axe, Great Poleaxe): 12-frame attack
WSM -10 (Thresher, Giant Thresher): 11-frame attack

In this case then, a Thresher or Giant Thresher does result in a faster attack than a Great Poleaxe (and hence more chance to trigger Infinity's CB mod). Since a Thresher is what my merc has, I'm glad socketing his helm wasn't a waste of a jewel. :smiley:
 

MageChick

Diabloii.Net Member
Well, the STR req'd isn't really a problem once you hit a decent level. If you can afford the Infinity, you can probably afford some decent gear. I'm a big fan of using Andy's helm with runeword poles (Infinity/Insight/Obediance) because they all need the IAS. By the time you hit level 83, which is required for Andy's helm, then you'll end up with pleny of Str once you equip the helm (which comes with 25-30 STR I believe)

I guess it all comes down to availability - CV's are definatly easier to find/make. I ended up with 5os's on my last two Eth Great Poleaxes - so they got turned into some real nice Obediance's. At this point I'll probably use whatever eth elite 4os pole I can get. But the economy still seems wrong to me that eth CV's command a high price, and all the others are cheaper.

*edit - keep in mind that this whole discussion applies to you Insight users too. Of couse you don't really have to worry about "the best" pole to use for Insight (use whatever one you find), but all the principles are the same.
 

emar

Diabloii.Net Member
MageChick said:
But the economy still seems wrong to me that eth CV's command a high price, and all the others are cheaper.
In my experience the other polearms demand a higher price. A 4os eCV vs. a 4os eThresher, you'll pay up to 3 times more for the Thresher. You pay more because they are harder to obtain. If this pricing is based off B.net, they are a bunch of silly people on there. Remember folks, Meteor nerfs experience, and repairing the Hellforge hammer gets you a better rune... Oh the things you learn online :thumbsup:
 

MageChick

Diabloii.Net Member
@emar - maybe I've just been "lucky" in buying eth Great polearms. I've bought two for pgems recently. (of course both gave me 5os when I rolled the sockets) One guy flat told me that only eth CV's have any value. I see people spamming their ISO list all the time - no one ever asks for Great Poleaxe's.

Maybe I should just chalk this up the all the brilliant people on Bnet. Remember to wear all your MF gear when key running. That and it helps to carry a high rune in your inventory when doing the countess or Hell forge quest:thumbsup: That way you have a better chance of getting the same rune to drop again :rolleyes:
 

KremBanan

Diabloii.Net Member
Ogre Axes gets only 3 sox and therefor are out of the calculations for Infinity.
As for range, I belive range is capped for mercs. Meaning that range on the weapon doesnt matter when its equipped by your merc. Or am I totally wrong here??
 
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