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Best PVM Bonemancer?

Discussion in 'Necromancer' started by kreality, Apr 25, 2008.

  1. kreality

    kreality IncGamers Member

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    Best PVM Bonemancer?

    What type of Bonemancer is good for PVM?

    Bone summoner or Bonemancer?

    The skills for my Bone Summoner consist of Maxed Raise Skeleton/Skeleton Mastery/ Lv1 Revive and few curse and the rest goes to Bone Spear/Spirit and Synergy.

    and for my Bonemancer which all skills point goes to Bone Spell such as Spear/Spirit/Prison/Wall/Teeth , couple of curse spell and Lv1 Revive..

    So, which kind of bonemancer build actually superior for PVM only?

    Any suggestion or thought?
     
  2. Wizdomm

    Wizdomm IncGamers Member

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    Re: Best PVM Bonemancer?

    A bone/summon hybrid will have VERY weak bone skills. If you want to use bone skills, then you really have to focus solely on the bone tree. I have a lvl 95 PvM boner that is alot of fun. He can solo hell Baal no problem. Not the fastest killer but I enjoy running with him. You can read about him here:
     
  3. kreality

    kreality IncGamers Member

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    Re: Best PVM Bonemancer?

    Lv95 Bonemancer? You sure have alot of time..So, what is your levelling spot? :grin:

    The reason why I want to make Hybrid Bonemancer because I like Skeleton and at the same time , I love Bone Spear as well...and for your build, your item build seem quite luxury too which sadly, I couldn't afford it at all.


     
  4. Wizdomm

    Wizdomm IncGamers Member

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    Re: Best PVM Bonemancer?

    Hehe, alot of time indeed. Actually, he's pretty close to 96. :rolleyes: The thing is this...to fully synergize the bone skills you HAVE to level to at least 92 (20 in all bone skills, 1 pt in bone armor and CE, 1pt in amp). Assuming you actually want a golem then you need to go to 94 for clay golem and golem mastery. Summoners or poisoners fully synergize their skills early and have tons of points to waste. Boners do not. Kind of a drag if you aren't interested in running Baal hundreds (or thousands) of times.

    For equipment, boners really need some decent gear. You don't have to use anything crazy expensive. Just the usual upper-level uniques (shako, maras, homo, etc.). And an enigma really is almost required even in PvM. If you get swarmed by monsters and don't have tele, then you're toast almost every time.



     
  5. nerdly

    nerdly IncGamers Member

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    Re: Best PVM Bonemancer?

    I agree that if your bone skills will be weaker, however your skele troops more than make up for that weakness. By lvl 90 you can expect about 1.5-2k Spirit. The difference is that this is not your main attack, the skele's are. With 9-14 skele's depending on your gear, and an insight/might merc, there is very little that can stand in your way PvM. The only thing that will slow you down is more than 4 players in a game.


     
  6. Wizdomm

    Wizdomm IncGamers Member

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    Re: Best PVM Bonemancer?

    The problem is the bone skills are so weak compared to the skels, why would ever use your bone skills? All you end up doing is wasting 40-60 skill points in bone skills you rarely, if ever, use. Why not invest those points in Mages, CE, or Bone Armor synergies.



     
  7. kreality

    kreality IncGamers Member

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    Re: Best PVM Bonemancer?

    Basically, BoneSummoner Build destined to be fail?
     
  8. NumtyDoo

    NumtyDoo IncGamers Member

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    Re: Best PVM Bonemancer?

    Bone/summoner is ok, for a "just for fun" build. Wizdomm has it right, if you put those "bone" points in mages and CE...

    1) High lvl mages will do more damage per second than your spear/spirit.
    2) Maxed CE will kill the whole screen in two clicks.

    Poison summon is better if you want to go the caster route, as you can max all poison skills (so no damage compromise) and have points left over for skellies.

    While a bone/summoner is viable, and I am sure he is fun to play, a pure summoner or pure boner will be better PvM options. Even a poison/summon is better (but item dependant) because you can still fully synergize your main attack.

    But if you have spare items and time, I guess you could go for it.
     
  9. galzohar

    galzohar IncGamers Member

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    Re: Best PVM Bonemancer?

    Bone/summoner is more of a summoner less of a boner... Since 20 skele/mastery brings decent skellies while 20 spear/spirit brings very weak spear/spirit. Even 80 doesn't bring very strong bone spells without massive gear (when compared to the damage other classes can dish out or even to the AOE capability of 3-piece trang-oul poison nova necro), with 100 it gets reasonable.
    On the other hand, a poison necro can't really summon much either as you'll need pretty close to lvl99 (if not higher...) to max skeletons/mastery if you also max nova/synergies and get at least 1 point in LR, so you'll never really have strong summons and use poison nova mostly (which isn't very high damage/second but very well makes up for it with very large AOE).
     
  10. nerdly

    nerdly IncGamers Member

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    Re: Best PVM Bonemancer?

    to necro this post...pun intended;
    I strongly disagree with Wizdomm's point about the bone skills being too weak to be useful compared to the skeles. There are two points to this build:
    1) The skele+skele mastery: These will be your normal monster clearing guys. They are a force to be reckoned with, and a shield to hide behind, but they alone, even with Amp, will not be able to kill ubreakable physical immunes, will be incredibly slow on strongly phyical immune monsters (such as the ones found in The Halls of Vaught and WSK lvls 1-3, and the Moon Lords that appear in Act 5 ice caves), and will be very very slow on act bosses.

    2) Your 1.5k-2k bone spirit or spear: This skill will aid you in army creation, whether your merc is standing or no, in any area in Hell. This will utterly destroy any Physical/non-magic immune monster. This will save you from imminent defeat when your skele's thrash themselves on Iron Maiden in The Chaos Sanc. It will be a continuous and reliable source of damage on bosses, even in the event that your army is lost/destroyed/unavailable. You'd be surprised at how effective a constant 1.5k damage can be even compared to 10 skeles. It is also fun to PvP less well geared players with-though don't expect to win against any real PvP build, especially if they use hacks.

    The counter points:
    1) You will not do the DPS of a full summoner army. As a response to this let us take the very very first character approach (as this was the main reason I chose the Bone/Summoner hybrid): When you are playing untwinked using only found gear, you will find out very early that your summons don't stand up to act bosses very well without a lot of management, and your merc will also die quite often, leaving you holding a limp wand with not a corpse in sight. Mephisto's poison, and his minion's hydras are really bad for this. Here is the point where clay golem+bone spirit will allow you to continue on without having to back track. It is remarkably effective.

    2) CE is great, unless there are fire+physical immunes, which are not that uncommon. Bone Spear or Spirit will make short work of them, while an army will hold them off. Coincidentally you will also see these types of immunities in the higher level areas of Hell, whereas the loathed Magic+Physical immunes tend to be kept in Act 2, making a rare appearance in WSK and Throne of Destruction.
    Also, CE is a PnB skill, so with only 1 pt in it and adding to your PnB and +Necro or just +skills gear will also make your bone spear and spirit stronger. You won't have the range of Fishy's Summoner, but it will be effective nonetheless, in essence giving you the best of both worlds - AoE and Direct Target damage. Also, don't forget that CE is not effective when there are no corpses, or someone is using a "Rest in Peace" mod.

    3) Bone Armor - Adding to Bone wall or bone prison is more effective than adding to bone armor itself, and those former two skills just happen to be synergies for bone spirit and spear.

    4) The Pure Bonemancer: As I recall can be effective PvM with a strong golem to tank, but lacks any physical damage aside from merc. I haven't played this variant yet though (will make a PvP version to test it out). I would be skeptical about performance against large amounts of closely packed mobs.

    5) Mages: Revives are considered stronger, and mages tend to die very easily, or can spawn with annoying cold magic, making your CE less effective. Once again I've not tried a full mage summoner, so I'll have to give that build a shot too.

    And yes, it is a fun build, especially when starting from nothing. I'm not going to say it's the best, but it is effective, whether or not it looks so on paper.
     
  11. kreality

    kreality IncGamers Member

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    Re: Best PVM Bonemancer?

    So, what is your suggestion skills build for Bone Summoner?


     
  12. nerdly

    nerdly IncGamers Member

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    Re: Best PVM Bonemancer?

    I based my build off of this guide, but did not include Marrow's or any high end gear in my calculations, so my str and dex are way above what they need to be, but do allow for a lot of flexibility in gear.

    As it stands my skills look like this:
    Summoning:
    20 skelemastery
    20 raise skeleton
    1 summon resists
    1 golem mastery
    1 clay golem

    Curses:
    1 amp
    1 decrep
    1 lower resists (for leveling with others)
    1 dim vision
    1 life tap

    Poison and Bone
    1 CE
    20 bone spirit
    20 bone spear
    ~8 or 9 into bone prison
    1 bone wall
    1 Bone shield

    +any and all pre-reqs for the affore mentioned skills.

    If I had it to do over again I would probably get fire or Iron golems to free up merc's weapon (Doing Dkey runs so sol'd Guillame's+Sol'd Glad bane+insight), and try to make up the damage with charms. I might not grab lower resists, since it isn't all that useful, even with sorcs about I find CE does the job in a much more satisfying way. I'm fairly happy with my bone damage pvm, but more PnB charms could help that as well.
     
  13. kreality

    kreality IncGamers Member

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    Re: Best PVM Bonemancer?

    So, what is your Bone SPear Damage?

    and Do you actually maxed Raise Skeleton/ Skeleton Mastery before going for Bone Spear/SPirit?


     
  14. tycIbn

    tycIbn IncGamers Member

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    Re: Best PVM Bonemancer?

    I have a lvl 89 bone/summoner build.

    although, my bone spear is "weak" compared to a pure bone necro. but make no mistake. my 1.4k spear can impale most monsters and uniques quickly, and make short work of physical immunes that amp won't break. although I find myself not relying on it as much, it's still useful and brings more excitement to a summoner build where you just tele and curse.

    my skill allocation:
    Summoning:
    20 Raise Skeleton
    20 Skeleton Mastery
    1 Clay Golem
    1 Golem Mastery
    1 Summon Resist

    Curses:
    1 Amp Damage
    1 Weaken
    1 Terror
    1 Decrepify

    Bone and Curses:
    1 Teeth
    1 CE
    20 Bone Spear
    1 Bone Armor
    20 Bone Wall
    rest Bone Prison

    i choose these because honestly, mages, revives, iron golem, and blood golem are worthless wastes of points. i still don't believe that more than 1 pt in CE really makes that much of a difference. this is built for the highest bone spear and bone armor possible. the great thing about Bone Wall and Bone Prison is that they are both synergies for Bone Spear and Bone Armor. with this, for my build i wasted 4 points i really wish i had back, i do 1.35k to 1.43k Bone Spear and have a Bone Armor with 550 absorb. i admit that my numbers aren't the greatest numbers in the world, but with my merc doing 7k+, and my army, i can solo baal on 8 players with 10 skellies with no real problems. i'm pretty sure with the a pnb gc or two, you should be able to reach 1.8k+ Bone Spear.
     
  15. carnivore

    carnivore IncGamers Member

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    Re: Best PVM Bonemancer?

    i havent found any need for summons of any kind with my pure boner so far, it was always prison -> curse -> spear. monsters will be heavily distracted by the prisons and will attack them, so they work as a tank.



     
  16. NumtyDoo

    NumtyDoo IncGamers Member

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    Re: Best PVM Bonemancer?

    Your bone spear does about the same damage as 3-4 of my mages, I have 18 of them, so your spear does about 1/5th the damage per shot that maxed mages do. Mages may not do as much damage as regular skellies, but they are highly under rated.

    Revive only takes one point, after +skills you end up with 10-20 revives, depending on items. That single point gets you a good amount of meat sheilds that don't die to IM (skellie warriors insta-kill themselves on IM). If you ever plan on doing ubers, you will want 1 point in revive for urdars. Not to mention, revives with CB or ones that were part of a unique pack, rape bosses. This greatly decreases boss killing time if your doing MF runs. Sure you can kill baal now, but if you could do it in half the time by spending 1 single point, sounds like a good investment to me.

    I am not a fan of iron golems myself, in an entire MF run I might use 2-3 mana pots. I don't need the extra mana, so I didn't spend points on golem mastery. I can see the benefits of having him though if you didn't want to max the usual Mages, DV, or BA. Blood golem? Does anyone use blood golem anymore?

    I used to be of that same mindset, until I tried it. CE is probably the most lethal skill in the game, with the only exception being that it has limited use on bosses. My CE range is bigger than the screen, I pop a CE, walk over to the next screen, everyone is dead, pop one of those bodies, walk over and the next screen is dead. With CE it doesn't matter how many monsters are in range, if there are 1,000, 1 CE will kill them all. In some areas like pits, chaos, or cows, My guys do not even need to fight, I can CE chain most of the way through the level, and never see who I am fighting, just dead boddies.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2008
  17. carnivore

    carnivore IncGamers Member

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    Re: Best PVM Bonemancer?

    i wouldnt go so far and say that you are completely wrong, but you are smplifying way too much on that matter.

    three points that could and should be considered:

    1. i guess you can attack much faster with your spears than mages do.

    2. one spear can hit several monsters and therefor its damage multiplies.


    3. you can focus your damage with spears, while mages will attack rather randomly. so you will get your corpses for corpse explosion much sooner.

    sure CE is a great skill, but not so great as everybody including you want to make it look. you need at least two corpses in a one player game to kill everything in range, since one CE will do less than 100% damage and monsters have resistances. in an eight player game you will need several corpses more as CE-damage isnt scaled up with the increased hit points of the monsters.
    however, you are right regarding the greater ease of a maxed ce.



     
    Last edited: May 23, 2008
  18. NumtyDoo

    NumtyDoo IncGamers Member

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    Re: Best PVM Bonemancer?

    You are right, I was over simplifying, I was argueing the "worthless waste of points" comment.
    1. While he only does 1/5th the damage per shot with spear, you are right, if you figure in his ability to cast spear faster than mages, he probably does about 4/5ths the damage that my mages do (total not each). But I do have infinity for a nice 85% bonus, so I bet his spear still only does 1/2 to 2/3rds the damage.
    2. That is true, but I have CE, I only need one body. So his hybrids "damage compromised" spear will kill an entire mob faster than my mages will, but when you use CE it is all about getting that 1st body the fastest.
    3. Mages can be focus fired using tele. When stacked they will all fire at the closest single target. In single player games, one volley is enough to kill and get that corpse for CE.
    With amp+conviction, CE only takes one body to kill the screen. With amp alone most will still die with one CE, you might have to pop two bodies every once in awhile. When people talk about CE getting weaker in full games it is funny, sure it takes more CE's because the damage doesn't scale, so I have to use 3 times as many CE's to get the job done. It is like that with every skill though, when I use my sorc, in a full game it takes 3 times as many fireballs, or three times as many frozen orbs to get the job done. So frozen orb is no longer a good skill because it takes more orbs to kill something in a full game?

    Sorry about going off topic, since this thread is about PvM bonemancers, not summoners. Comments like "worthless waste of points" get me fired up, unless we are talking about maxing blood golem, then it would be an acceptable comment, lol.
     
  19. carnivore

    carnivore IncGamers Member

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    Re: Best PVM Bonemancer?

    there are probably too many variables to determine the actual dealed damage and effectiveness of both skills (base resistance of the monster, composition of mage elements, layout of level and postioning of the mage and so on). both skills are absolutely viable. i actually have both: a bonemancer with spear as main skill and a summoner with mages.

    the difference between CE and other elemental damage skills is, that CE needs ammunition in form of bodies. and you will need new bodies to start with every few steps you take. with maxed ce this will get much easier as those bodies dont have to be as close and youll probably dont need new initial bodies every half screen for each new monster group.

    so i totally agree with maxing CE as a worthwhile investion.



     
  20. bigredd

    bigredd IncGamers Member

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    Re: Best PVM Bonemancer?

    ha u said boner


     

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