Best overall 4v4 team?

[HappyAssassin]

Trapper doesn't do well alone? This is news to me. When I duel on the other team from wes (my realm's top trapper), I make a concentrated effort to kill him BEFORE the rest of his team dies. Why? Because if he's left alone he'll just teleport away, dropping 5 stacks of traps and waiting for someone to screw up. Killing him takes forever, and if your team doesnt have two smart caster hunters you might actually lose (what you do is split up so one chases and the other circlets around).

People are discussing 85+ lite res on the other team. What? This is not a common occurence. 85 lite res means tgods, which means no arach or dungos. Most necros, hammerdins, BvCs and windies in tvt duels are very focuses on hitting their FCR bps (gotta be fast to react to your team and theirs), FHR bps (locks are WAY more dangerous in tvt) and DR (because almost everyone is physical based and you might get amped as well). You're either gonna have to give up fcr/dr (which hurts you in general/vs. the rest of the team), or stick Los in your gear. No one uses x4Lo shield in tvt, lets get that outta the way. Either you're blocking or your usng to Spirit to make your life easier. Everyone uses Enigma. Only spot for a Lo (or 2) is in the hat, again where you would probobly put Bers (CoA or Shako) or Shaels (Fcr circlet or Shako) to help you get DR or Bps. Lastly, the best source of conviction for a trapper in tvt is the trapper herself. Good trappers tend to carry an infinity on switch, because they aren't boing themself and they can apply a nice -70 lightres if someone is unfortunate enough to make a bad ww or telestomp in their traps.

I'd like to close (lol) by pointing out that tvt is ALL ABOUT the 2v1. It is not 4 individual matchups going on at once. Certain chars (notably the trapper and the bowa, but the necro too) are going to be targets because of what they do on a team. Setting up the 2v1 advantage (or more) is what gets kills, tvt gets complicated when both teams know how to do that. The trapper isn't really there for dmg (though its nice). My ghostsin, which has base level traps, can be a really effective team dueler, just with her stun. Sure, I WW sometimes, but I spend most of the duel MBing and trapping. The reason people use trappers and not ghostsins for tvt is that trappers hurt they enemy while they do that.

 

[LtSinborn]

<3 hehehe

i seem to get good fhr frames these days, i can walk any character fairly well

 

[Ce Olba]

People are discussing 85+ lite res on the other team. What? This is not a common occurence. 85 lite res means tgods, which means no arach or dungos. Most necros, hammerdins, BvCs and windies in tvt duels are very focuses on hitting their FCR bps (gotta be fast to react to your team and theirs), FHR bps (locks are WAY more dangerous in tvt) and DR (because almost everyone is physical based and you might get amped as well). You're either gonna have to give up fcr/dr (which hurts you in general/vs. the rest of the team), or stick Los in your gear. No one uses x4Lo shield in tvt, lets get that outta the way. Either you're blocking or your usng to Spirit to make your life easier. Everyone uses Enigma. Only spot for a Lo (or 2) is in the hat, again where you would probobly put Bers (CoA or Shako) or Shaels (Fcr circlet or Shako) to help you get DR or Bps. Lastly, the best source of conviction for a trapper in tvt is the trapper herself. Good trappers tend to carry an infinity on switch, because they aren't boing themself and they can apply a nice -70 lightres if someone is unfortunate enough to make a bad ww or telestomp in their traps.

Again, you are forgetting something. It all depends on how your team is. For example, a BvC always has 48% FHR with any helm he uses except Kira's. Also, anyone half-assed will not rely on the 15% PDR of Dungo's. Not to mention that Fade makes sure you are not dependant on Dungo.

As for TGod's, you are apparently not thinking straight. You will need a lot more than a simple trapper to, for example, put a BvC out of balance. The 20% FCR can be regained from your rings. Now, that forces you to have a character with high defense, such as a hammerdin or you are screwed. Now, the other team can easily counter-act your wannabe-plan.

It does not come down to gear, it comes down to careful planning and trust between the members of a team.

I'd like to close (lol) by pointing out that tvt is ALL ABOUT the 2v1. It is not 4 individual matchups going on at once. Certain chars (notably the trapper and the bowa, but the necro too) are going to be targets because of what they do on a team. Setting up the 2v1 advantage (or more) is what gets kills, tvt gets complicated when both teams know how to do that. The trapper isn't really there for dmg (though its nice). My ghostsin, which has base level traps, can be a really effective team dueler, just with her stun. Sure, I WW sometimes, but I spend most of the duel MBing and trapping. The reason people use trappers and not ghostsins for tvt is that trappers hurt they enemy while they do that.

You surely are a fool, aren't you? Trying to set up a 2v1 is only possible if both teams are based on offense, which is just stupidity. Having a flexible team that can change from defense to offense depending on the opposition is what a real TvT team is all about. And no, there won't be too many 2v1 situations in a defensive vs. offensive team TvT. Why so? Because the defensive team works as a whole, forcing the offensive team to re-think their strategy. Or why do you think a team of bvc/boner/hammerdin/bowa is so popular? Because they got the perfect defense with quite a godly offense. However, if they even try to function as individuals, they are as good as a goners. A bowazon cannot do squat alone and that's where the hammerdin comes in: it protects the bowazon while powering up it's offense. The bonemancer will also support both offense and defense: it has a tracking, ranged and magical attack not to mention Amplify Damage making sure that anyone who gets on their screen is pretty much fried. The BvC provides everything with a significant life boost and stops attackers in their tracks.

And that's why such a team wins a lot: they function as a team. Yet, the factor that gives them victory is also their demise: breaking their teamwork by separating them or killing one or two of the team's members makes them as good as goners. This is why a team needs to have characters that can stand 1v1-4 on their own with no help from the rest. Characters that have very few weaknesses. The best solution would be a team where one of the team members is capable of killinbg the weakness of another team member, making it so that, as a team, they are unmatched. At this point, it comes down to planning, coordination and flexible team work.

Making a TvT team that's based sheerly on 2v1 situations is foolish. Yet, making a team where everyone depends on each other is also foolish. Making a team where the members support each other and yet are capable of standing on their own against multiple enemies is what wins TvTs.

 

[HappyAssassin]

No one Fades in tvt where I duel because prebuff is considered BM.

My "wannabe plan" is based on hours upon hours of team dueling, both as a clan member and an independent, against some of the best people on USWest (Ladder and Non-Ladder players). Trapper/BvC/Necro/Windy is what I've seen to work the best, against Hdin/Bowa/BvC/Windy, Hdin/Necro/BvC/Windy, w/e.

@ Ce Olba: I'm a mod now bro, I can't get into a back and forth quote war with you any more. It'd be irresponsable. Please remember to keep your comments focused on the argument and not the personalities, IQs, emotional failings or poor mathematical abilities on other posters. Friendly reminder.

 

[Ce Olba]

No one Fades in tvt where I duel because prebuff is considered BM.

I actually find that to be funny. So, you are saying all of the sorcs you have there in TvTs are at best 73% ES, Lightning Sorcs or have 20 base ES? Somehow I don't buy that.

My "wannabe plan" is based on hours upon hours of team dueling, both as a clan member and an independent, against some of the best people on USWest (Ladder and Non-Ladder players). Trapper/BvC/Necro/Windy is what I've seen to work the best, against Hdin/Bowa/BvC/Windy, Hdin/Necro/BvC/Windy, w/e.

Again, it's not about what you've seen, but what is reality. Hdin/Necro/BvC/Bowa is supposedly the ultimate team both defense and offensewise, but from what I gather, a team of BvC/Hdin/Windy/Necro could beat them. Now, I see nothing impressive in the team setup you have. Yes, you have a neat -50% PDR, two physical attackers, one magical attacker and a single elemental attacker. But you are missing the keyfactor that has been mentioned here: Conviction. Lower Resist alone is not enough of a threat for any above-average duelist and you should know that very well. Not to mention that you would need to have a lvl 99 bonemancer to do that if you want to have clay golem and golem mastery also. And I don't see too many lvl 99 bonies around, meaning they sacrifice damage or their summons. Even then, they would need to be at least lvl 91.

@ Ce Olba: I'm a mod now bro, I can't get into a back and forth quote war with you any more. It'd be irresponsable.

So, I was correct when I expected that there was some hidden "code of conduct" for moderators? I see, that's how it seems to go in most places: moderators have to set an example. You know, I find that to be rather ridiculous. No, I'm not mocking the system, I'm just pointing out a slight flaw. Isn't it clearly crippling the discussion if you disallow a moderator from posting in a quote-war? That's, simply speaking, a misdemeanor of one's rights as a human, forcing them to change their own self. Or well, you can look it as a limitation of one's freedom of speech as well. I know, FoS does not exist on forums because they belong to the owner of the forum, but I don't see why should you use that as an excuse to try and force a certain way of behavior on people in a specific group. I bet Mike will edit this out too, but I hope he thinks of doing that for a little while before he does so, as I'm not criticizing the system, the mods, Elly or anyone else. I'm just pondering the values and the supposed code of conduct on this forum. Which I believe should be as allowed as making any other topic.

Please remember to keep your comments focused on the argument and not the personalities, IQs, emotional failings or poor mathematical abilities on other posters. Friendly reminder.

Don't I always do that? I've never spoken of anyone's IQ, mcm, blobs and possibly morotsjos did that. Emotional failings? Not my thing, sorry. Poor mathematical skills? Sorry, that's morotsjos' thing as you very well know from the way he acted towards me at the end of his way on these forums. I know I constantly use sentences such as "You're a fool" or the like, but I do not consider them to be offensive, I just find it to be the exactly correct way of pointing out flaws in a statement. If you dislike that, that is of course your own opinion and you are allowed to have it, but that surely as hell does not justify any level of hatred or acts of hatred targetted at me. Or am I wrong?

 

[Uncle_Mike]

This is off topic but you do remember that things similar to the above post gave you a temp-ban some time ago right?

If you have a problem with mods and their decisions/comments either use pm or msg Elly and explain why we abuse our powers.

I am not getting involved in a quote battle either, tread lightly...

Do not bother to think about me and what I will or will not edit...think for yourself and what you do...

edit: this is in fact your last warning

 

[Kiba]

I disagree Kiba. I'd have one of those be a Wolfbarb so you can add a nice BO to the pack.

a flee mongrel barbarian bleh!



Werewolf , Werewolf , Werewolf & Werewolf with Call to arms!

 

[Ouallada]

Simply put Olba, we agree to disagree. You made some very good points, and I can see where you are coming from. Happy has his own version of tvt rules, so give him that right. He has made good points as well. This discussion won't conclude anything beside telling us what people prefer based on the rules, environment, style and gear that they have. There is no right or wrong answer.

 

[LtSinborn]

WOWOW. All I see is idiot, who never has tpk'd, and idiot who has never tpk'd.

First off, Ce Olba, I bet you have no idea what the hell dueling is beyond this forum, or your crap pubs that you join. I bet, that when you do duel, you pick up your crap friends, or pub people, and play with each other. You really do have no frickin idea what your talking about.

What the hell do you base all your presumptions on? Forums? What other people have said?

Windy/BvC/Trapper/Necro - is the plain best team. Having been on the top clans on USwest ladder and non ladder, I have experienced the highest calibur of team pk. In all your sentences, you say, "I gather," which obviously shows you have no idea what the hell your talking about. I suggest you go to your room, and get on with crunching numbers you ignorant prick.

Ok, you seem to argue that a bowazon, is a fairly key point in dueling. Wrong Wrong WRONG WRONG. Not only would good necros Invisible Bone Spirit spam that zon, the top trappers would take out that zon in a matter of minutes without being touched. The teams are offensive teams. Defensive teams get demolished. Ex: Epk vs TcO, this is clan pk, the highest of team pk. These were two fairly known clans several months ago. TcO was said to have Adifey, the best bowa on uswest, a reputation that apparently preceeded him. Epk, was the best team on uswest. Epk-GundogII, and Epk-Sauga (Druid and Necro), could 2v4 TcO's team. With superior skills, and an extreme offense, it appears that the best offensive team, vs the best defensive team, Offensive was clearly the winner. It really saddens me, to see such people make input on things they clearly do not understand

It is common for humans to mock and scorn what they have no understanding of.

Once again, I suggest anyone on this forum before they make another retarded comment, to learn how to namelock and duel with people who can actually play.

Ce Olba: I suggest you never talk bad about Ollie again. Because he is clearly your superior.

 

[Ce Olba]

First off, Ce Olba, I bet you have no idea what the hell dueling is beyond this forum, or your crap pubs that you join. I bet, that when you do duel, you pick up your crap friends, or pub people, and play with each other. You really do have no frickin idea what your talking about.

Oh sorry, but my "friends" on D2 consist of the top players on the Europe realm. I guess you've never heard of any of them, being the arrogant westie that you are.

You know, I've been playing 1v1's, 1vX's, TvTs and pubs. I have quite a good idea of what dueling is inside the private circles and in the pro circles. Not that I would want to brag, but I know at least two or three people on this forum that should be able to verify that.

What the hell do you base all your presumptions on? Forums? What other people have said?

Windy/BvC/Trapper/Necro - is the plain best team. Having been on the top clans on USwest ladder and non ladder, I have experienced the highest calibur of team pk. In all your sentences, you say, "I gather," which obviously shows you have no idea what the hell your talking about.

Just because I've not been a part of each and every TvT team does not mean that I have no idea of what I'm talking about. Again, from what I can gather so far, you are simply angry because I disagree with you. How very pathetic of you to take offense of such.

And again, I'm saying clans mean nothing. The individuals do. 90% of the time the individuals in a clan are much more known than the clan. A few examples that I know of: Vic of RIP on EUSCNL is by far more known than the RIP-clan as a whole. Not to even speak of luis, or FriggenSaget if you will. I, a player on Europe, have heard of Luis but outside of him, I've barely heard of Friggen-clan.

I suggest you go to your room, and get on with crunching numbers you ignorant prick.

Sorry, I am already in my room. Crunching numbers? Nah, I just came home from a schooltrip that taught me about logarithms and basic functions. Sorry, I believe that's enough for this summer.

Your insults are actually rather ... common. Please, if you want to see a reaction, use a much, much more original insult. You are simply amusing, and I'm enjoying that.

Ok, you seem to argue that a bowazon, is a fairly key point in dueling. Wrong Wrong WRONG WRONG. Not only would good necros Invisible Bone Spirit spam that zon, the top trappers would take out that zon in a matter of minutes without being touched.

No, I did not say that Bowazon is a good dueler. You should spend at least a good five minutes reading my posts and thinking about them before making stupid deductions like that. I simply said that most people think like that, but I'd like to see how a certain other team would do against a team of Hdin/BvC/Boner/Bowa.

The teams are offensive teams. Defensive teams get demolished.

Oh, I see that you've never seen two defensive teams face each other. You know what that is? It's two groups spamming projectiles at each other, hoping for the other side to die.

Sometimes, the best defense is the offense. But sometimes it's vice versa.

Ex: Epk vs TcO, this is clan pk, the highest of team pk. These were two fairly known clans several months ago.

Means squat to me?

TcO was said to have Adifey, the best bowa on uswest, a reputation that apparently preceeded him.

And I thought someone said Die-SALSAL was the best bowazon on the whole realm?

Epk-GundogII, and Epk-Sauga (Druid and Necro), could 2v4 TcO's team. With superior skills, and an extreme offense, it appears that the best offensive team, vs the best defensive team, Offensive was clearly the winner. It really saddens me, to see such people make input on things they clearly do not understand

Hah? You are the fool here, sonny. You are basing your arguments of my stupidity, my ignorance and my lack of knowledge simply on what I say. Did it ever occur to you that I might be keeping some secrets? If it did not, then that already shows what kind of a fool you are; one that fails to think on a deeper level.

It is common for humans to mock and scorn what they have no understanding of.

It's also common for people to try to mock others when they themselves have no idea of the opposition. And by the way, your mocking me is simply amusing because you fail to have any creativity whatsoever. Of course, using the reasoning I provided earlier, you could be keeping it a secret because you do not think I'm worth it. Well, that sure would be interesting, considering that you wrote such a long post and yet didn't bother to fire me with everything that you've got.

Once again, I suggest anyone on this forum before they make another retarded comment, to learn how to namelock and duel with people who can actually play.

It seems you have quite a small and flawed vocabulary. Do you even have any idea of the meaning of the word "retarded" or are you simply using it because blobs and all the "good duelists" use such words? If you had knowledge of the meaning of that word, you wouldn't use it so foolishly, trying to anger me when you clearly realize that I am far from retarded.

Sorry, I know very well how to namelock and I usually duel with either my friends or the top of the realm. However, I have been inactive for a year now.

Ce Olba: I suggest you never talk bad about Ollie again. Because he is clearly your superior.

I wasn't talking "bad" about him, I was simply trying to counter his reasoning and fanatiscm for assassins. He seems just like KaythonXE to me, and KaythonXE was a person who had an extreme hatred for BvCs; he claimed that anything from FC bear to kicksin could 10-0 any BvC. In this case, Happy seems like him: he's suggesting a trapper for a position that it does not necessarily fit.

If you had any knowledge of TvTs, you would know that the team needs to have enough players so that you can change the composition of the team according to your enemies. Or are you seriously claiming you always duel with exactly the same people and the same team? I doubt.

And I couldn't care less whether Happy is superior to me or not, that's of no concern whatsoever to me. He plays sins, I play barbs. And lately, the only other known BvC players have been quite inactive. De4dEye hasn't posted in a long time, mainaman has been inactive. The only one's active recently are myself and SicHalo. If you are saying that I, who have quite some knowledge of BvCs, should not post simply because you disagree with me on a single issue, you are truely a fool of the worst case.

Note: Mike, do something about this guy. He seems like a wannabe-henchman of Happy's and he has an attitude like Kaython or blobs. Not good.

 

[LtSinborn]

O im so sorry for you, you play europe....

Thats like one level below east...

I remember I3unny went over to Europe with a trapper and gamed half that continent

 

[Ce Olba]

O im so sorry for you, you play europe....

Thats like one level below east...

Now now, aren't you being a bit too arrogant? If you haven't even played on Europe, don't talk about Europe.

I remember I3unny went over to Europe with a trapper and gamed half that continent

And why is it that I've never heard of this person even though I've heard/I know most of the top players of Europe?

 

[ThatWasShockin]

Now now, aren't you being a bit too arrogant? If you haven't even played on Europe, don't talk about Europe.



And why is it that I've never heard of this person even though I've heard/I know most of the top players of Europe?

I'd like them to come here and give their opinions on you. Since you know them that should be an easy request. :grin:

 

[Ce Olba]

I'd like them to come here and give their opinions on you. Since you know them that should be an easy request. :grin:

Most of them couldn't care less about me nor do they even recall me. Currently I only know for sure that ben and morotsjos know me personally. Then we have Vic, who's not that nice of a person. Then that who-was-it-again who played the best windy on the realm, I never actually faced him, just saw him playing in a game once or twice.

And you probably already know what morotsjos thinks of me. He doesn't like me, but it's not because I would suck or anything, it's just his thing.

Then we have stoutewolf, who, as far as I know, quit D2. He's quite known here, I believe. And he's only dueled me like a few duels, so...

There might be some skilled players on WW/Trap sins and the like, but I don't recall any. And most of the rest that I knew have quit D2 or haven't kept in contact with me.

Oh, a few members on this forum that have seen me duel or whom I've dueled: SicHalo, Luder and OneBlast, I believe.

 

[HappyAssassin]

That's quite enough of that. I'd prefer to avoid temp banning anyone.