Best dagger for a poison dagger necro?

chickenhed

Diabloii.Net Member
Best dagger for a poison dagger necro?

I'm curious on opinions on this. is the Blackbog's Sharp the best dagger for a PD necro?
 
It would be hard not to use the blackbogs for its uber skillz that killz and fast atack speed (base damage irelevent for pdagger), although if you didnt want that one, then the fleshripper might be ok for the CB and fastness, and wizardspike comes recommended on switch if you need more resists.
 

Nightfish

Diabloii.Net Member
Blackbogs for questing, Fleshripper for bosses. At least that's the current plan for my daggermancer. Gonna aim for 100% hit causes monster to flee, too.
 

nobo

Diabloii.Net Member
Nightfish said:
Blackbogs for questing, Fleshripper for bosses. At least that's the current plan for my daggermancer. Gonna aim for 100% hit causes monster to flee, too.
another great weapon for normal monsters (i agree on fleshripper for bosses) is ghostflame socketed with a ias/[email protected] jewel. nice damage (for manaleech decryp, for lifeleech lifetap), itd (if you aim on maxblock pretty useless) and - indestructable.

[edit]: hmm socketing a shael would be better
blackbogs is faster than ghostflame...[/edit]

blackbogs is a great dagger, but 24 durability is not much and the repaircosts are pretty high.
 

Nightfish

Diabloii.Net Member
Ghostflame doesn't really have any +skills going for it so I wouldn't pick it. Since you don't really zeal with poison dagger I think the low duarability is no problem. If it is, there's always ort runes...
 

nobo

Diabloii.Net Member
indeed, no +skills on ghostflame.
and i forgot to post the possibility of repairing with runes.

two more questions: has anyone tried poisondagger combined with venom? can you prebuffer venom?
 

Draco

Diabloii.Net Member
I think Blackbog's Sharp is the best for PD Necro, Its pretty nice skilled so....

Grtz
 

chickenhed

Diabloii.Net Member
Nightfish said:
Blackbogs for questing, Fleshripper for bosses. At least that's the current plan for my daggermancer. Gonna aim for 100% hit causes monster to flee, too.
I assume you would use the fleshripper for bosses because of the CB? if that is the case that means you plan on click-locking him and goin nuts, right? Well I was hoping to use PD to actually apply the poison then back off and let it do its work while my skellies and merc smash him (whichever boss). With that strategy in mind, is fleshripper still better? The only problem i have with blackbogs is the fact that it applies poison damage. as far as i recall, poison dagger skill duration is additive on top of any other poison you are applying. that would be annoying, wouldnt it? since i would have to wait the 10 seconds for blackbog's poison to run out, THEN PD poison would apply. or do i have this totally wrong? :) (entirely possible...)
 

Nightfish

Diabloii.Net Member
Well, yeah, I would definetly smash act bosses repeatedly. I really don't have the patience for anything else. What do I care of poison hasn't worn off on him yet? That's not gonna be what does the lion share of damage anyhows.

The reason why I'd pick that is pretty much everything on the weapon. -50% target defence together with PD's AR will allow me to hit the boss, CB will kill it and OW will do it's part too. And yeah, once he's whittled down enough I would switch to another weapon, poison him and go make coffee or something. For questing I do plan to use PD to kill, not CB. Hence my plan for 100% monster fleeing. :)

Can't help you with the durations questions, though. Gotta ask RTB or thrugg for that stuff. I know you can fiddle with poison lenght somehow but I've never bothered to look it up yet.
 

MFMOFO

Banned
yeah, can someone explain how poison dagger damage + poison damage from weapon + poison damage from charms works? I'm thinking on make a daggermancer too...
 

chickenhed

Diabloii.Net Member
Nightfish said:
And yeah, once he's whittled down enough I would switch to another weapon, poison him and go make coffee or something.
lol!, that cracked me up.

I got the duration info from the daggermancer guide on the SC (http://strategy.diabloii.net/news.php?id=582) (goto section 4.)

To be honest, it took a while for me to get it, but this is a quick summary:

"The DF of each item is

Tal Rune. 25*5=125 DF
Wormskull 25*8=200 DF
Charm 25*2= 50 DF

For the DF of the combined items we do this:

[125(tal)+200(wormskull)+50(charm)=375] /3(the number of items)=125

Now the beauty of Poison dagger is that the duration of the spell is added onto this figure. So for example your poison dagger has a duration of 5.2 seconds you would add (5.2*25) 130 frames for the total FD. So we now know that our victims will be under the effect of our poison for 255 frames (255/25=10.2 seconds)."

So since it is ADDITIVE, that means id have to wait the 10 seconds for blackbogs duration to run out, then PD would kick in. which would kinda suck. if im right that is.
 

chickenhed

Diabloii.Net Member
Nightfish said:
Blackbogs for questing, Fleshripper for bosses. At least that's the current plan for my daggermancer. Gonna aim for 100% hit causes monster to flee, too.
Also, would you save me some reseach time and let me know of the items you plan on equipping to achieve the 100% chance to flee, because that sounds really really handy for the questing and is a great idea.
 

MFMOFO

Banned
The Face of Horror
Mask
Defense: 52
Durability: 10 of 20
Required Strength: 23
Required Level: 20
Item Version: 1.10 Expansion
Item Level: 66
Fingerprint: 0x8f251498
+20 to Strength
+25 Defense
All Resistances +10
Hit Causes Monster to Flee 50%
50% Damage to Undead

Rattlecage
Gothic Plate
Defense: 328
Durability: 48 of 55
Required Strength: 70
Required Level: 29
Item Version: 1.10 Expansion
Item Level: 87
Fingerprint: 0x83aca41d
+45 to Attack Rating
+200 Defense
Hit Causes Monster to Flee 40%
25% Chance of Crushing Blow

;] I'm planing to use this 2. Don't know of any other but these give 90%,that's enough for me
 

Llathias

Banned
in general with poison damage, the damage per time is added and the duration is averaged. that is, if you have 2 sources dealing 40 dmg in 2 sec and 90 dmg in 3, you'll have (20+30) 50 dmg per second for 2.5 sec, which sums up to 125 dmg.

poison dagger also adds the damage per time, but instead of averaging, adds its duration to the average duration of the other sources. however, your poison dagger damage is dealth for the whole duration, as well as the other sources. in other words, pdagger makes the poison duration longer without lowering the dmg per time. no negative effect there.

(if you look at that link or the original Tao of Poison from the Necro forum, you'll see that removing some short duration sources of poison actually does increase your dmg).
 

chickenhed

Diabloii.Net Member
MFMOFO said:
The Face of Horror
Mask
Defense: 52
Durability: 10 of 20
Required Strength: 23
Required Level: 20
Item Version: 1.10 Expansion
Item Level: 66
Fingerprint: 0x8f251498
+20 to Strength
+25 Defense
All Resistances +10
Hit Causes Monster to Flee 50%
50% Damage to Undead

Rattlecage
Gothic Plate
Defense: 328
Durability: 48 of 55
Required Strength: 70
Required Level: 29
Item Version: 1.10 Expansion
Item Level: 87
Fingerprint: 0x83aca41d
+45 to Attack Rating
+200 Defense
Hit Causes Monster to Flee 40%
25% Chance of Crushing Blow

;] I'm planing to use this 2. Don't know of any other but these give 90%,that's enough for me
Thanks for the info!

hmmm... I will be using trangs scales so i wont be able to use rattlecage.... hmmmm I wonder if there are boots or belts that have this property... must research :)
 

Porius

Diabloii.Net Member
Llathias is right, the damage per frame (or second) is added, then the poison duration from non-skill poison sources are averaged, and then the skill poison damage is added on.

So, let's say you have 300 poison damage over 5 seconds from all of your sources, and then another 500 damage over 5 seconds from poison dagger. You would then have 160 damage per second for 10 seconds, which is 1600 points of damage, all told.

So, let's say you have a fully synergized, but only 20th level poison dagger. You would get a total of 4,320 damage over 9.6 seconds (minimum). Let's now say you add a dagger socketed with only a TAL rune (75 damage over 5 seconds). Now, for this strike, you do 6,789 damage (minimum). Granted, you now have to wait 14.6 seconds, but when you are looking at hitting every creature on the screen, you may not even notice.

Now, just for kicks, put in a perfect emerald (100 damage over 7 seconds), and you get 7,707 damage (over 16.6 seconds) for one hit.

Blackbog's does 488 damage over 10 seconds. With level 20 PD (just because its already been shown above), you now are looking at 9777 damage over 19.6 seconds. Not bad for one hit...

Interesting, eh?

Porius
 

chickenhed

Diabloii.Net Member
Llathias said:
in general with poison damage, the damage per time is added and the duration is averaged. that is, if you have 2 sources dealing 40 dmg in 2 sec and 90 dmg in 3, you'll have (20+30) 50 dmg per second for 2.5 sec, which sums up to 125 dmg.

poison dagger also adds the damage per time, but instead of averaging, adds its duration to the average duration of the other sources. however, your poison dagger damage is dealth for the whole duration, as well as the other sources. in other words, pdagger makes the poison duration longer without lowering the dmg per time. no negative effect there.

(if you look at that link or the original Tao of Poison from the Necro forum, you'll see that removing some short duration sources of poison actually does increase your dmg).
didnt even see your post! thanks for the great info!
 

chickenhed

Diabloii.Net Member
Porius said:
Llathias is right, the damage per frame (or second) is added, then the poison duration from non-skill poison sources are averaged, and then the skill poison damage is added on.

So, let's say you have 300 poison damage over 5 seconds from all of your sources, and then another 500 damage over 5 seconds from poison dagger. You would then have 160 damage per second for 10 seconds, which is 1600 points of damage, all told.

So, let's say you have a fully synergized, but only 20th level poison dagger. You would get a total of 4,320 damage over 9.6 seconds (minimum). Let's now say you add a dagger socketed with only a TAL rune (75 damage over 5 seconds). Now, for this strike, you do 6,789 damage (minimum). Granted, you now have to wait 14.6 seconds, but when you are looking at hitting every creature on the screen, you may not even notice.

Now, just for kicks, put in a perfect emerald (100 damage over 7 seconds), and you get 7,707 damage (over 16.6 seconds) for one hit.

Blackbog's does 488 damage over 10 seconds. With level 20 PD (just because its already been shown above), you now are looking at 9777 damage over 19.6 seconds. Not bad for one hit...

Interesting, eh?

Porius
im copying and pasting this.... :)

wonderful info to go with Llathias explanation as well. thanks to you both.

edit: just to see if my math is correct, porius. if you had blackbogs, 20 PD (synergized), a perfect emerald, and a tal rune, my totals equal roughly 16684.8 damage over 31.6 seconds with an average of roughly 528 damage per second. If you have the time, is that right? :)
 

Llathias

Banned
i'm glad that the information helped :)

about the calculation, i could not get your result. let's do it step by step so someone can correct me if i'm doing something wrong...

first, Porius seems to have made a mistake by calculating the skill damage. +800% damage comes from synergies, which makes it 900% of the listed damage. at lvl 20, that's 4860-5229 (5044.5 avg) dmg for 9.6 seconds (blackbogs gives +5 to pdagger, but i don't have access to the dmg at lvl 25).
avg dmg/sec: 525.47, duration: 9.6s

Blackbog's
dmg/sec: 48.8, duration: 10s

Perfect Emerald
dmg/sec: 14.29, duration: 7s

Tal rune
dmg/sec: 15, duration: 5s


Total dmg/sec (we add all up): 603.56
Average duration of Blackbog's+Tal+Emerald: 7.33s
Total duration with pdagger duration added: 16.93s

Total dmg: 10220.3

of note is that, if we were to take out Tal from the setup, we'd have:
Total dmg/sec: 588.56
Average duration of Blackbog's+Emerald: 8.5s
Total duration with pdagger duration added: 18.1s

Total dmg: 10653.9

with only Blackbog's (Tal and Emerald removed):
Total dmg/sec: 574.27
Total duration: 19.6s

Total dmg: 11255.7 (1035.4 higher from the initial setup)


these numbers might be off by a tiny bit since i don't know where and how the game rounds numbers. i also used the average dmg from pdagger, Porios had used min dmg.

Edit: you cannot have both a Tal rune and a Perfect Emerald in Blackbog's Sharp. although a Cinquedeas can get 3 sockets, elite items will only get 1 socket from Larzuk.
 
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