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Best build for rushing Hell?

Discussion in 'Sorceress' started by philipcannady, Jun 7, 2005.

  1. philipcannady

    philipcannady IncGamers Member

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    Best build for rushing Hell?

    What, in your opinion, is the best build suitable for rushing a character through hell difficulty?

    Particularly, the chaos sanctuary in Hell. Right now I'm using a Meteor Orb Sorc:
    20 Orb
    20 Fireball
    20 Firemastery
    20 Meteor
    1 F.A
    1 Teleport (and Telekinesis)
    Rest in Cold Mastery.

    She has max block, around 900 life, and max resist in everything but poison when all is said and done.

    She can survive the Chaos Sanc, but it is a pretty slow and tedious process. Are there any sorcerer builds which can really tear through it? I'd think not, with all the immunes, but I really don't feel like joining the crowd of hammerdins out there (not that there is anything wrong with them).
     
  2. HCTwinJava

    HCTwinJava IncGamers Member

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    i do rush every once in a while since 1.09. most of the time i use a meteorb sorc, but for hell act4/5 I may switch to a necro (for ancients) or a zon (for chaos) since no sorc is really fast in clearing summit/chaos. surely, if you have an enigmatized hammerdin, he should be good in most places in hell act4/5.

    suggestions for your sorc:

    - get her life orb to 1.2K+, or 2.0k+ with BO. This way, you can teleport into chaos and clear it without ever dying.

    - For chaos, you'd be better off with ~75% resist to psn and/or at least 1 item to reduce psn length by 50% or more.

    - (if you already do so, disregard this) for chaos, remove your merc's wpn before tele into it.

    A best thing with a meteorb is that your merc can hardly die in chaos, and before Diablo kills him you'll have already killed Diablo. A rusher sorc has no reason being afraid of tanking Hell Diablo, and can kill Hell Diablo as fast as a hammerdin with 10x more costly gear can.
     
  3. Jek

    Jek IncGamers Member

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    Wouldn't a cold/lightning build fare better? Considering the 'tuff monsters in CS are fire immune and all the LIs die to 1, maybe 2 if they are lucky, FOrbs. Slam a Woestave on your merc for pure fun. :-D
     
  4. HCTwinJava

    HCTwinJava IncGamers Member

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    No, unless you were talking about the old day nova sorc (given very decent gear and if played very well, she could kill all non-LI's fast - similar to today's uber hammerdins).

    they don't die so easily, because there are at least 2 players in a rush game. Non-nova L skills (CB/L/CL/Tstorm) don't scale very well in big games but nova is no longer a killer skill - that's why you don't see dedicated rushers use L-based sorcs.
     
  5. Jek

    Jek IncGamers Member

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    Lightning/Chain Lightning can still lay waste to even the largest non-LI mob. -30 resists from facets and gear, combined with a few skillers and other +skills gear improves kill speed alot.


    Hrm. They die to a head-on FOrb to me. :thumbsup:
     
  6. HCTwinJava

    HCTwinJava IncGamers Member

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    Basically, agreed. otherwise few would play a L/CL sorc.

    But as I mentioned, L/CL don't scale very well. If you play on ladder, L/CL don't kill fast in any big Hell game. That's because every ladder monster acts like a non-ladder super unique, and the actual # of players on b-net (not = "player 8" in Single-Player mode) can raise the difficulty of a game significantly.

    BTW, the "largest" non-LI mob I've ever seen in this game is a few hundred Hell cows herded into a huge mob - CL is not the right skill to deal with such a mob. In fact, in 1.10 sorc is not the right class to deal with a mob like that.



    this can be easily verified - just have your FO sorc tele into Chaos on Hell diff and watch how fast she kills stuff. On ladder, 500 dmg per shard w/ -100% cold resist don't kill anything fast in Hell act4/5 - more cold dmg than that is needed to kill fast even in a small Hell game, that's why we love pure Bliz sorcs, who at high levels can easily do 6000+ area cold dmg w/ well over -100% cold resist.
     
  7. Jek

    Jek IncGamers Member

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    I don't understand what you mean...

    It might not be faster than LF or CE, but CL and L will surely make the smell of bacon fill the air fast. How often does you encounter 100 angry halberd swinging cows in the Chaos Sanctuary?

    I don't deal persky 500 per shard, around 800 damage and -150% resists. LIs die in one head-on orb. :)
     
  8. HCTwinJava

    HCTwinJava IncGamers Member

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    that could be anything but "persky" ;-)

    No, 500/-100% is pretty "standard" damage output from FO (Frozen Orb) by a decent ladder sorc using FO as her secondary skill. If you build a sorc around FO using FO as her primary skill, that would be a completely different story.

    Check out the 1st post in this thread. Although I don't know the details about that sorc's gear/stats, judging by the fact that she has only 900+ hit points I guess she probably can do only close to 400 direct damage from FO!


    BTW-

    if you only put about 35 skill points into your sorc's cold skill tree (that's the reason why you choose FO, not Blizz, as your secondary skill), even with +20 to your cold skills (=> level 40 FO), your sorc is still unable do 600/-150% damage from FO!

    Lvl 20 FO + lvl 5 CM, with +20 to cold/sorc skills, give you:

    lvl 40 FO + lvl 25 CM
    593 cold dmg / -140% cold resist


    Ofc, that assumes you don't use special gear to further boost her cold dmg. But even with those items, I still don't know how your sorc can reasonably reach 800 FO dmg with only -150% from CM. Note that your sorc must have put tons of skill pts in her L tree just to get her L/CL work as you have described.





    Re the killing speed of FO:

    If you don't believe me, just teleport a FO/L/CL ladder sorc into Chaos in a big Hell baalrun game, and see if she can kill LI's with just 1 FO (I hope she won't die using FO or CL there - you know, a best rusher should never die in SC, and must never die in HC).



    edit: cows don't leave milk factories. but if you do Hell rush alone, your sorc will tele into Chaos and usually (not 100% times) have to single-handedly kill 100+ monsters more pesky than most cows. This is especially true if your rusher sorc is on HCL.
     
  9. Jek

    Jek IncGamers Member

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    I'm the typo-king, shhh. :p

    Ah, I totally forgot, thought we were discussing decked out sorcs. My bad. :-/

    +cold damage skills, IE. Nightwing, Ormus and Death Fathoms all greatly boost cold damage, but it's a moot point if we're talking about "budget" sorcs.

    But you wont do the rush in a big baalrun game, well, I wont. ;)

    You don't have to take on the entire Chaos level at once. :p

    ---------

    My concern with cold/fire rushing is the troublesome monsters are usually the firebreathing mooners (the balrog pack) which always is immune to fire, and given how most meteorbs are usually lacking in the cold department, that fight could be quite hard.
    The only LIs you'll usually meet are the ghosts, and Frozen Orb cuts through them like a warm knife through butter, even without the aforementioned top-of-the-pops gear.
    Lord De Seis can sometimes spawn LI, but after cleaning the pack he's easy prey for your merc.

    But without a healthy dose of +skills and +cold damage the Cold/Lightning sorc is lacking a little behind the usual cold/fire, a pity since it's loads of more fun. :)
     
  10. Bigrob

    Bigrob Banned

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    orb/fb sorc is the best rusher right now...
     
  11. Jek

    Jek IncGamers Member

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    I'd say Enigma Hammerdin, but yeah.
     
  12. HCTwinJava

    HCTwinJava IncGamers Member

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    in 1.09, a "pro" rusher (always = a sorc!) would rush 7 chars from norm act1 to hell cow level. if preparation was done properly, it could take only about 45 minutes - and all this could be 100% legit.

    in 1.10, rushing becomes less meaningful and more tedious. but by all means, if you can rush 7 babies at once, you'll still do it - the difficulty doing that on Hell diff is equivalent to that clearing all seals in Chaos in a full Hell Baalrun game.



    To a Meteorb rusher, the Infector of Souls' pack is usually not the hardest part of clearing Hell Chaos seals - they are tough and fast, but are extremely stupid.

    Here are two real challenges:

    1) how to keep your merc survive Hell Chaos - so long as he's still alive, a decent rusher is virtually impossible to die there. without his help, you'll either slow down a lot or take a great risk for a quick death.

    2) how to kill a dual-immune boss who happens to be a Holy Freezer - even worse, he may have mods like extra strong. And you cannot skip him if his name is Lord De Seis.





    It's normal that a rusher seems losing power in Hell act4/5. it's best if your sorc teams with some1 else to do rush through Hell act4/5, except in a small game.


    In comparing with FO/CL sorc, let me repeat 1 thing: against Diablo himself, even a "bugdet" meteorb rusher is a fastest killer. Among all other sorc builds, perhaps only a pure blizz-based, tanking sorc can match her on this.



    Generally speaking, an enigmatized hammerdin can be a better rusher only in Hell act4/5. In any rush game on Norm/NM diff, sorc is still the single best class.
     
  13. Dennis_KoreanGuy

    Dennis_KoreanGuy IncGamers Member

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    Whoa... "ENIGMATIZED" Hammerdin... Whoa... :eek:

    I concur.

    - Dennis
     
  14. Jek

    Jek IncGamers Member

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    If I were to rush 7 chars at once I wouldn't settle for anything but an enigma hammerdin. ;)

    I agree, but you are losing valuable time tricking the demons instead of just laying an orb or two whilst spamming a lightning/cl combination.


    If you focus alot on +cold damage gear you can kill him almost as fast as a CS java with any FO/XX sorc. ;)

    ---

    There's no doubt that a fire/cold (meteorber especially) is an exceptional strong subclass, with and without massive +skills. But, in my opinion, a cold/lightning sorc will pass her power once the top gear is attained, at this point the fire/cold sorc strongest point is she got spells for every monster (FI/CI = Static Field, whereas a cold/lightning will be forced to have a strong merc for CI/LI).
     
  15. HCTwinJava

    HCTwinJava IncGamers Member

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    Enigmatized Hammerdin!!!
    ========================

    you probably spend all or most of your Diablo time on SP/SC/SCL, so you can say that. I spend most of my d2 time playing HC (or HCL - never played non-ladder HC in 1.10), so I can't say that - unconditionally!

    The huge difference between HCL and SCL/SC/SP is: very very few HCL players are ever able to get something like Enigma. Without enigma, the holy aura around that cookie cutter will be virtually all gone.


    Fair/Unfair Comparisons
    ==================

    When you compare L/CL with Meteor/FB (in terms of FO, all FO/xxx sorcs are pretty much the same, they mainly differ with respect to that "xxx"), you seem to have always assumed max possible +skills for your L/CL (the same goes when you say your FO/L/CL sorc does 800 FO dmg, which is not very easy to get even with a cold sorc and lvl 40+ FO - I already illustrated that).

    I usually only assume 10-15 +skills, which is obtainable by most SCL and many HCL players. A L-based sorc with only 10-15 +skills... can be very powerful? But Meteor/FB with +10-15 skills is already pretty decent.

    If you assume +20 light skills with other light dmg-boosting items for your FO/L/CL sorc, you will need to give the Meteorb sorc also +20 skills with equivalent fire dmg-boosting items, just to make the comparison fair.



    FO/CL sorc, compared to Meteorb sorc
    ====================================


    Meteorb/FB with +20 skills and typically 61 skill point investment will do 20K+ delayed area fire dmg on all monsters in the 4 yard radius plus extra burning damage, or 9K splash fire dmg on all monsters within 1 yard radius.

    L/CL with +20 skills and typically 61 skill point investment will do 7.5K total instant light damage on 1 or more targets on 1 straight line, or 43K average total light damage spreading out on up to 13 targets.

    The big difference between Met/FB and L/CL in a BIG, ladder Hell game when lots of monsters are flooding towards your sorc is that: the total damage of CL is fixed, no matter what! And L is best only against 1 (at most a few lined up) stationary or slow-moving target. But Met/FB will damage everything in its effect area, the more monsters there are in the area the more damage it does. Also, high-level Meteor's burning damage will remain on the ground for quite a while and the damage from multiple Meteors always stack up.


    Let's ignore mercs and non-skill-based damage boosting items, as well as STATIC field, for simplicity:

    A single big boss like Hell Diablo has nearly 120K hit points in a 1-player game, and 50% resist to either F or L. A meteor sorc with +20 fire skills can effectively do 10K+ fire dmg per meteor on Diablo, or 4.5K+ per FB - that's why Hell Diablo dies so fast (= within 12 meteors or about 25 FB = about 5 or 6 sec for a tanking rusher sorc if she alternates between every 1 Meteor and 2/3 FBs, assuming 8FCR or 3.125 casts per sec for simplicity). A L/CL sorc with +20 light skills will need to spam L to max her damage output, which is 7.5K * 50% = 3.8K effective average damage per cast. Assuming 8FCR or 3.125 casts per sec, she will need ~11 sec to kill Diablo. The killing time is roughly doubled. If it takes a Meteorb sorc 1 min to kill Diablo in a full game, it will take a FO/CL sorc 2 min to kill Diablo, assuming they use EQUIVALENT gear with *comparable* damage boosting.



    When you single out Infector of Souls and his always fire-immune buddies in a Hell game, a Meteorb sorc can only use her secondary, weaker skill (FO) against them (Static will hardly work against the whole group, because almost all sorcs will very likely die for doing that). A FO/CL sorc can use her primary, stronger skill and all her skills against them. This comparison favors Fo/CL sorc, even before the compare is made.



    FO/CL sorc, compared to LF javazon
    ==================================


    Regardless of how you compare a LF javazon with a Light-based sorc, so long as THEY USE COMPARABLE GEAR WITH COMPARABLE DAMAGE-BOOSTING ITEMS AND ARE OF SIMILARLY HIGH LEVELS, a LF javazon will always be significantly faster in terms of killing non-LI mobs (by a mob, I mean 10+ monsters in a tight area). The bigger the mob, the faster the javazon will be.

    Just to be a bit complete, let me show off a bit the power of Javazon:


    To make the compare fair, let's assume we have a javazon who has invested 64 skill points in her Javelin skills and also has +20 to javelin skills.

    Let's also ignore mercs and non-skill-based damage boosting items, for simplicity.


    Against mobs (the bigger the better!):

    this javazon will do up to 91K max light-damage, or up to 45K average light-damage. The javelin she throws can typically pierce 80% of the time (equivalent to level 15 Pierce) and can pierce through multiple targets (or up to 5, as some claimed). On average, let's assume it always pierces 3 times, for simplicity. So, the total max average damage per throw becomes 45K * 3 = 135K. A typical javazon can attack 2.5-3 times per sec. For simplicity, let's assume 2.5. So, against mobs (again the bigger the better!), our javazon can do up to the max average light damage of 135K * 2.5 = 338K!!! How many CL sorcs can deliver that type of lightening damage??? If there is one, she has yet to be given birth to by the Diablo2 developer!



    Against big bosses like Hell Diablo:

    Against Hell Diablo, our javazon will do 48K max charged bolt damage * (1 - Diablo's light resist) = 48K * 50% = 24K effective max light damage = 12K average light damage per attack. Assume 2.5 attack rate. Our javazon will do 12K * 2.5 = 30K effective average light damage per second. It will take 120K / 30K = 4 seconds for this javazon to kill Hell Diablo in a 1-player game, using pure light damage! How many L/CL sorcs can deliver that type of light damage against Hell Diablo??? If there is one, she has yet to be given birth to by the Diablo2 developer!
     

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