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Berserk and Warcry?

Discussion in 'Barbarian' started by UofUlawguy, Feb 11, 2004.

  1. UofUlawguy

    UofUlawguy IncGamers Member

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    Berserk and Warcry?

    I've never used either Berserk (as a main skill) or Warcry, so I hope those of you with more experience will be able to answer this for me. Since Berserk lowers your defense to zero, I was thinking it would be a good idea to use Warcry to stun everything first. Are there any problems with this? Is there something about the way Warcry works (or doesn't) that would prevent this from being a good idea?
     
  2. osidon

    osidon IncGamers Member

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    curently i have a lvl 71 berserker and he has maxed berserk, and battle orders. i prefer battle orders over war cry because battle orders raises you rlife and mana tones so when you have no def you will have alot of life to back it up. keep in mind that berserk only last 1.2 secs. :thumbsup:
     
  3. puckalicious

    puckalicious IncGamers Member

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    I would max BO and warcry, you can do both. I wonder if your defense still goes to zero if you use shout before using berserk? I'm sure it does.
    Berserk is so slow why would you want that as your primary attack?
     
  4. osidon

    osidon IncGamers Member

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    you have to remember something berserk negates your defense and when you swing ne ways you have no def. it just last 1.2 secs longer maxed out.
     
  5. JohnofTesh

    JohnofTesh IncGamers Member

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    I have a 2-handed axe zerker at lvl **. He uses a rare feral axe that is 293% cruel with fools mod also (.5 to max dmg/lvl and +16 to ar/ lvl). It requires 196 strength and no dexterity to wield it and starts off at a natural -15 ias. My ar from mastery and berserk and the fools mod on the axe is over 15k.


    My build is
    berserk = 20
    war cry = 15 <- with highlords, arreats and 2 warcry charms I am at slvl 20
    shout = 20
    axe mastery = 20
    howl = 15 with more on the way
    battle orders = 1 <- *gasp* - Since I did not have to put any points into dexterity to get ar or blocking, I put 250 into vitality. With Battle command and some not extraordinary vita charms my life is at about 2700
    leap attack = 0 <- I use leap, and saved a skill point
    Whirlwind = 0 <- I use 1 pt in concentrate and saved a skill point
    increased stamina = 0
    increased speed = 0
    battle cry = 1 <-battle cry is your friend
    find item, find potion =1 so I can hork the dead guys
    battle command = 1 <- a great 1 point wonder

    WarCry and Howl will be your best friends. I am still in the process of learning how to use them in combination best. I will report when I have a better handle on that.
    If I could count the times that someone has told me "Wow dude, that is the most pathetic battle orders I have ever seen".
     
  6. bigdogadm

    bigdogadm IncGamers Member

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    I made this exact type of Berserker in 1.09, maxing Berserk, BO, Warcry, and a mastery. Stunning everyone is very nice, but even with plenty of +skills and maxed Warcry, the duration on the stun was still ridiculously short. Even wielding my huge dmg 2 handed axe, I found myself casting warcry over and over again to finish off even a small pack of monsters. This lead to the second problem...

    Lack of mana. Warcy's mana cost is HUGE for a Barb, and with absolutely no mana leech possible (Berserk is purely magical and allows no leech), your mana ball drains EXTREMELY fast. I never could keep up the pace for long without sucking down blue potions like nobody's business, and ended up scrounging around for mana potions at every opportunity.

    Though this build is a fun one (I really hated all the cookie-cutter WW barbs in 1.09, and it was fun to try a new build), it was really tough to keep going. With all of the nerfs of melee chars in 1.10, and greatly increased hps and damage of everyone in hell, I do not see how this can be a very successful build in 1.10.
     
  7. gadoken

    gadoken IncGamers Member

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    I've got an idea that i've been testing out. Instead of depending on warcry and howl so much, having even a single point in grim ward will be useful.

    Howl's 'running away' effect is cancelled when enemies hit a obstacle. Let's face it, there're obstcales everywhere in this game. So howled enemies can still come back and get u while under the howl effect.

    Not so with grim ward. A single grim ward causes enemies within it's effective radius to run no matter what. It's not dependent on Mlvl vs Slvl and Clvl. In tight spaces, this can keep enemies pressed against the wall, or caught between urns. Running enemies don't deal damage to u, so u're rather safe there. It's great vs bosses, whose minions will run away leaving you time to go 1v1 against the boss.

    Multiple grim wards placed strategically can cause enemies to bounce around the wards, making for easy kills especially on zombies. And grim ward only costs 4 mana.

    The pre-requisite skill point in find item and find potion are useful in their own way too, especially with dual heart carvers.

    Admittedly, I was thinking more along the lines of a frenzy barb, but a berserk barb could well use with the idea of grim ward creating a breathing space.

    Just run into a pack with warcry and battle cry, get a corpse , toss up a grim ward, and you've got it made.
     
  8. UofUlawguy

    UofUlawguy IncGamers Member

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    Okay, lack of mana, that's the kind of reply I was looking for. I wondered whether mana would get to be a problem. How about if you switch off to concentrate or something else to leech back every once in a while?

    See, I just can't help thinking that if everybody is stunned, there's no need for defense, blocking, or even much life. I would really like to find a way to make this work.
     
  9. prion

    prion IncGamers Member

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    is Berserk slower than Concentrate?
     
  10. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir IncGamers Member

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    read my post about my experience with my IK zerker, i can only say yes go for it. this is now the barb build i love most, for its killing potential and survivability against iron maiden.

    I think he kills faster than any other barb build can do. i have had many frenzy barbs before, and this one certainly killed better. i have never used a ww barb since 2 years ago, but seeing other use them, i think the zerker also kills faster than those.
    A zerker does at least twice the damage per hit. (and thats not even concidering the WW barb probably needs a shield)
    A WW barb probably hits like 5 time or so per WW, but you dont do a WW in the time the zerk barb makes 2.5 hits.

    really, this is THE barb.
     
  11. Evanta

    Evanta IncGamers Member

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    Zerker is the ultimate in 1on1 PvM fights. The only time Berzerk runs into problems is against Champion packs.

    Anyway, though pure Zerker is fairly good, my WW/Zerker is slightly less powerful but more versatile... having fun playing him so far.
     
  12. wind

    wind IncGamers Member

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    When using Howl the player counts on having some monsters bounce off things back to him. :evil: Otherwise it would be waaaay :cyclops: too much running around. You see that effect of howl gives the zerker nice odds against his prey. It's not dangerous to zerk against 3 regular monsters at a time, but YMMV.

    Even with champion packs the only one to be extremely careful with are the frenzy type of monsters, they are few and far between and can be divided and conquered in other ways. Lister and crew seem to work when its 2 against the berserker.

    Just one footnote to what I'm mentioning. This is best done with a 9 fps attack, max block and an A2 merc with slows target. The merc doesn't necessarily need to do any killing, mine uses a Woestave in Hell.
     
  13. JohnofTesh

    JohnofTesh IncGamers Member

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    With items my warcry is at slvl 20 - that gives me 5 second of stun. I can kill plenty within that amount of time. Berserk is a nice skill in that it does not depend on the ias on the weapon. Belt or glove or jewel ias on your gear speeds up your Berserk. Highlords ammy with 20% ias, +1 skills and deadly strike is recommended, as is nosferatus coil/gold wrap with the 10% ias. Laying of hands has 20% ias as well as the 350% demon dmg on them but there are several other ways you can go on the gloves that will give you 20% ias. What all this means is that you can control how many attacks you get per casting of War Cry.

    You get your mana from charms and potions. I wear a ravenfrost that gives me 40 mana. I especially like snakes charms of vita so that I get life and mana at the same time. I get about 110 to mana from charms. At rest my mana ball is 306. With my slvl 8 Battle Orders, my mana goes to 475. Slvl 20 War Cry cost 30 mana but you don't cast it continuously. Maxxed Berserk only cost 4 mana, Battle Cry costs 5 mana and Howl cost 4. I keep a row of mana pots on my belt. If I run into a mana burn monster or start to run low, I pop a cap. Why not, everything around me is either stunned or fleeing, I got time.

    Not having a use for leech gives you a lot more freedom in choosing gear that you will not get in most barbarian builds.

    This build will take you a little more time to mature, but once you get into the higher lvls and get comfortable with your skills.... I am now soloing pit runs and Baal with the help of an act 2 cold merc. I wear all magic find gear with arreats and laying of hands and am getting great drops strolling along.

    When I do party Baal runs I catch some grief over my Battle Orders, but then when I dropped maxxed Shout on the group and stand in the middle of where Baal drops the pack casting War Cry and Battle Cry the smart ones shut up and settle down to easy killing.
     
  14. bigdogadm

    bigdogadm IncGamers Member

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    I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't max both BO and Warcry for a build like this. BO is REQUIRED, since it more than doubles both your life and mana(desperately needed) at high levels. Warcry's stun only goes up at high levels, so I can't imagine why that shouldn't be maxed either. I have a lvl 33 BO (with 2 "echoing" weapons on switch, also essential), and it is still possible to run out of life/mana from time to time.

    You should never put any points in Iron Skin or Shout for this build, as your defense will always be zero, regardless. Unless you have points to spare for synergies (probably not many with this build), but if you do have points for synergies maybe Shout would be ok here. It gives bonuses to both Berserk and BO, which is good, but certainly max BO/Warcry/Berserk first. (by the way, does anyone else find it goofy that Bliz decided to make Shout have a huge synergy to Berserk, where your def is always ZERO?)

    In reply to your questions, UofUlawguy, I don't think it would be possible to switch to Concentrate every time you need leech. Concentrate's damage, without any synergies and at obviously a low skill lvl (since your other points are taken up building up your main skill, Berserk), will do pathetic damage. Even with maxed Berserk and synergies, you will have trouble killing things before the stun of Warcry wears off, but trying to quickly switch skills to refill your mana ball would be extremely inefficient. As you can tell, I am not a big fan of this build. I absolutely love my Ironbarb/Concentrate barb, and i think that actually staying alive is a wonderful thing.
     
  15. JohnofTesh

    JohnofTesh IncGamers Member

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    Not only are you not a fan of this build, you don't seem to have thought it out fully either...

    Shout is a synergy of berserk - after maxxing my Axe Mastery, Berserk and getting to a sweet spot on War Cry I maxxed Shout. I saved Howl for last because it is the one with the least benefit per added level besides the dmg it adds to Berserk. You are not always berserking, so for the time you are moving from spot to spot you get the benefit of Shout and the 1 point you put into Iron Skin to get a point into Natural Resistance. When soloing, I use a Act 2 holy freeze merc. He says, "Thanks you sir may I have another" to maxxed shout.

    War Crys stun starts at 1.2 seconds at slvl 1 and goes up .2 seconds for every point in it. You put as many points into it as seems appropriate. If I have enough points in it so that I can kill 3 or 4 things before I have to recast I feel pretty good about myself. It can also mean that after a couple of casting there are so few things left alive or that they are so spread out as to cause no threat that I can berserk without the need of War Cry. This is no longer a "max everything" world if you haven't noticed, sacrifices/trade-offs have to be made somewhere. This way let me max Berserk, Shout and I will come close to maxxing Howl, so doing my way let me get very close to getting the maximum damage possible out of Berserk while still maintaining high life and ar.

    Battle Orders is assumed to be required, but I didn't get to lvl ** by luck, so I guess that this assumption is not correct either. I prefer to play alone, so most of my levels were gained the hard way. My 1.09 barbs all were "maxxed BO" barbs, and for other builds I would certainly go that route. There are several ways to get big life - large Battle Orders is certainly one, but pumping Vitality is another - it is not a party friendly way, but what do I care about how much life I can impart to the party. I know that there is a certain pride in the "My Battle Orders is bigger than your Battle Orders", but had you read all that I wrote, you would have seen that my build let me put huge pts into vitality (I have 20 or so not used, so I could be at 300 pts into vitality if I want), and get big life without the other 19 points in Battle Orders - that let me pump my synergies so that I get bigger dmg.

    I played this my way - I have 2700 life, 5 seconds of stun, 18 seconds of flee, my berserk is at 830% enhanced dmg, my ar is over 15000 and I have 2 skill points not put anywhere yet. My damage not including the 150% enhanced damage to demons I get from using an axe is 1500-7375 with a 22% chance of critical strike and a 33% chance of deadly strike. I have yeat to put any ed/ias jewels on my weapon or in any of my gear, so as time goes by, I will get more damage and more hits in. Using a feral axe means that I only need 120 ias to hit max frame rate for berserk, so I am darn fast without going to extraordinary measures. Most things go down in 1 or 2 hits. Most things are also either running away or stunned, so I have the leisure to pick off the most troublesome/valuable things first. I have dual ali baba's as my alternate weapons and can wear travelers/skulders/goldwrap/chance guards/nagel ring/nagel ring for a walk through most of the game (tal rasha's I avoid because of the magic immunes). I will have to admit that I did put 2 pts into dexterity so that I could use the ali baba's, but otherwise, everything went to strength or vitality.

    This is a berserker build . Berserkers should be all about damage. Sometimes Berserkers die, that is their destiny. Mostly they win.
     
  16. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir IncGamers Member

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    yes we can tell you arent a fan. but besides staying alive, killing things is pretty nice as well :)
     
  17. tpiercymtv

    tpiercymtv IncGamers Member

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    I am assuming your character is a sc character...In HC BO is a must.
     
  18. bigdogadm

    bigdogadm IncGamers Member

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    Everyone is certainly free to make any build they like, and I am certainly not going to deny anyone that right. However, do not deny me the right to think that this is an inferior build. If you are using a Feral Axe (2 handed, no shield/blocking), using Berserk as your exclusive attack (0 defense, enemy 95% chance to hit), with a low lvl BO, and playing in Hell, with all MF equip on and little to no damage reduction, then you are getting PUMMELLED by large groups. Death in these cases is an inevitability. The only way to avoid this is to howl incessantly and then pick people off one at a time as they come back. I don't deny that this may be a fun way for some to play-but I am not one of those people. I HATE dying in general, and I really hate losing experience, resurrecting my merc, and having to exit and rejoin to get my body back when I do.

    I like to be in the thick of battle, surrounded by 15 enemies and laughing as they try to pierce my 30k+ defense, 75% blocking, maxed damage reduction and maxed resists. This is the way I like to play. Especially in 1.10, with enemies hitting as hard as they do, and with the HUGE synergy BO gives to Concentrate, I believe that the Concentrate/Iron Barb is the most fun way to play a Barb these days.

    Do not chastize me for "not having thought this build out," especially when your build is so obviously unique and tailored to your own personal interests. I do not begrudge you the right to make a character in this way, but understand that I and many others would never build one in that style. I have played almost every conceivable type of Barb, including several Berserkers. It is my humble opinion that they are not fun for me to play.

    All of my comments in this thread were directed to the original poster, who was simply curious about what Berserkers were like to play. I do not believe it would have been fair to tell him how wonderful and easy to play they were, then have him go play one for countless hours only to die incessantly as soon as he got to Hell. There are many downsides to this build, and I was simply trying to point them out to him so he didn't have to learn the hard way (like me). Standard fare for all cookie-cutter Berserkers would be to max BO and put very few into Shout, maybe as the last thing once all other skills are maxed. This is good advice for all Berserkers out there.
     
  19. JohnofTesh

    JohnofTesh IncGamers Member

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    You may not be denying people the right to a certain build, but you are putting out statements that I think are incorrect. They weren't even accurate in 1.09 and they are even less so now. When I see you making statements backed up by belief that differ from what I have experienced by playing the build then it is my right to point that out. And to try to pass all your comments off as being directed at the original poster is less than accurate.

    Yes, I have a build that is unique, but it wasn't to suit my tastes, it was becasue I felt the mix of skills I use was appropriate to the build for sc pvm 1.10. Unless you have tried it my way then everything you say is supposition and opinion. I have a build that is viable in 1.10 and that doesn't require a huge investment in equipment - any % arreats, any % war travelers are pretty much the only items I would strongly recommend - everything else is fluid. I understand that this build is not the cookie-cutter BotD/Stormshield Berserker or the cookie-cutter IK Concentration Iron barb, but it is a balanced build that works for someone interested in playing Berserker 2-handed and that won't require you to mortgage the farm. My feral axe dropped and I think that feral axes make the best 2-handed axes for Berserking, but with imbues, gambling, crafting and drops, someone else could duplicate or surpass mine easily enough. Hellslayer or Messerschmidts would work - not quite as well in my opinion - but would work. Yes, it is more challenging to do it with lower Battle Orders, but with high vitality and decent vita charms my life is at a comparable lvl to that of an high Battle Order barb.

    What I said is that it is possible to do it in mostly mf gear - harder, yet possible. That is my measure of a build - can I do it and get consistant nice drops - with this one you can. With the high quality of drops I have been getting from this build I am more than willing to make the trade-off of dying sometimes from playing it so close to the edge. If you trade out mf gear for resistance and ias gear it is easier and you will die even less. It gets even easier if you use damage reduction gear. It also get easier as you learn tactics to deal with what you face, when to wade into the fray, when to circle, when to retreat and drink a pot, how to use the merc as a buffer between ranged attackers, etc.

    The build you describe is 1.09 cookie-cutter, this is 1.10 and changes had to be made. War-Cry handles melee, Howl handles ranged. I don't spam Howl unless I am following behind the merc with ali-babas out horking the bodies while he does the killing. Sometimes I stand in the middle of the crowd, sometimes I stun a group and move on to a more dangerous group - I decide on the fly depending on the makeup of the group I am facing. My preference is to use Howl as sparingly as possible and I reserve it for use on ranged attackers or to get seperation when I face champion/unique packs.

    You talk in absolutes and keep on saying that "you can't imagine" this or that. That speaks of a lack of imagination, not intimate knowledge.
     
  20. UofUlawguy

    UofUlawguy IncGamers Member

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    bigdogadm:" If you are using . . . Berserk as your exclusive attack (0 defense, enemy 95% chance to hit), with a low lvl BO, and playing in Hell . . . then you are getting PUMMELLED by large groups. Death in these cases is an inevitability. The only way to avoid this is to howl incessantly and then pick people off one at a time as they come back."

    But that's why I asked about Warcry. How are you getting PUMMELLED if everybody else is stunned all the time?

    bigdogadm:"All of my comments in this thread were directed to the original poster, who was simply curious about what Berserkers were like to play."

    No, I wasn't. I asked about how Berserk works WITH WARCRY. Normally, I wouldn't try a Berserker, because of the 0 defense thing. But I might IF it works well with Warcry. If it does, then 0 defense means absolutely nothing.
     

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