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Baby Parts (US), Gay Scouts (US), Iran Nukes (you), and a surprise!

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by jmervyn, Jul 14, 2015.

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  1. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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  2. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    1. Is this a contest about who did the meanest thing to childrn, born or unborn? In India, some people cut off arms and legs from small children or pierce out their eyes, so they will make more money from begging.

    2. That page is blank for me. I guess it's about a homosexual boy scout leader who abused children. What's your point? Castrating all gays for it or throwing them into jail? Why not disallowing sex altogether, taking a sperm sample for later artificial insemination and then cut off everything once and for all?

    3. No matter to which extent the Iran is to your or my liking, whether they deserve it or not or whether it's stratagically opportune, you cannot prevent them from enriching Uranium in facilities a mile underground if they really mean it. As soon as a country has a few nukes and halfway working missiles, it's immune to invasions, that's certainly worth a lot in that place. After all, there were a few invasions and threats thereof in the last few decades. The more they feel threatened, the more it will pay off to endure sanctions or other kinds of discomfort for a while and build the nukes. Once they have them, the sanctions will fall sooner or later... they have oil, after all.
     
  3. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    No, just about violating Federal law and selling baby parts. Mengele analogies are basically valid, thereby calling into question the state of American ethics.
    Strange - you can't see Newsweek? Why not?

    The Boy Scouts of America just approved flaming homosexual Scoutmasters, &c. because of the untenable position they foresaw themselves in (reference $135K punitive damages to a bakery). You mention disallowing sex altogether - that ought to have been the solution, rather than the incessant sexualizing of children which the Left is always intent upon.
    Why not? The sanctions were what prevented them from doing so already (as well as leet haxxor skillz). Of course, German interests are not only overtly anti-Israeli in this matter; Germany also wants to skirt the sanctions almost as much as Russia and China do, just as they did the Iraqi sanctions.

    There's a shitload of money to be made when dealing with a nation-state under duress.
    I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Islamist mind. You folk always conjure up monstrous images of the possible results of Christian zealotry, but Islamist "Twelver" belief (which is prevalent in the Iranian mullah-tocracy) is the desire for apocalyptic world supremacy. The Iranian people are none too happy with the regime, but since lifting the sanctions directly supports the regime they'll not find cause for complaint. Or they'll be killed.


    No comment on the last item (#4)? I thought you would have been more supportive! Are you some kind of racist?
     
  4. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    You are too much in propaganda mode to my taste. Christian zealotry, Twelver, fundamentalists, WTH are you talking about? I'm just talking about how power is gained and applied.

    4. The US has drawn a bit closer to utter decadence. Off to bed with them without supper. Seriously, it's best to ignore everything which a puberting mind makes up to provoke or impress others. We will probably find the greatest amount odf consent on this topic.
     
  5. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    What I mean to say is that you hold a totally Western mindset in motivation and rationale vis-a-vis the application of power. It's quite defenseless in the face of unremitting totalitarian belief, particularly that underpinned by religious zealotry.

    The same is true of Obama - he apparently believes he can persuade the Iranian mullahs to come back into the fold of urbane Western civilization - purely on the basis of his own supposed charisma & giving them gifts. The reality is that the mullahs would have never regained power if the Iranian populace had not at least had mild antipathy to the secular regime of the Shah.
    I'm appalled at your blatant Vampiriphobia.
     
  6. Glurin

    Glurin IncGamers Member

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    In this particular case, however, the gaining and application of power will result in nuclear holocaust. When NK got nukes, it was troubling because that country is run by a crazy dictator. But they are at least containable for the time being. Iran is run by crazy apocalyptic dictators who, even during the negotiations, have repeatedly vowed to obliterate everything that is not muslim and sponsored groups who actively work toward achieving that very goal. That sort of thing should have ended negotiations right then and there and caused some bunker busters to be dropped on above mentioned enrichment facilities to boot. Instead we have a president with some kind of fairyland vision of the world who thinks lifting sanctions will cause the Iranians to give up their violent ways and everything will be sunshine and rainbows from here on out.

    You claim it's propaganda. Is it propaganda to say it's a bad idea to hand your neighbor a machine gun if he has promised you each and every day that he is going to slaughter you and your family and has in fact put numerous bullet holes in your house already?
     
  7. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Kris is just one of those folks who figure that he'll be last on the list.


    [​IMG]
     
  8. kestegs

    kestegs D3 Monk Moderator

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    1. I don't think people who are okay with abortion should have any problem with this. If you're not going to call it a baby, or even alive until it's born, then why would you care if this happens. People are going to have to wrestle with their mixed up morals on this one, and for that I'm glad.

    2. I didn't even realize that was all in effect. No surprise.

    3. I'm staying out of this.

    4. People are stupid. And then there's people who are supposed to be smart that act stupid. If you're really a vampire then prove it, then we'll talk.
     
  9. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    You're no fun.

    I was actually spinning this thread as a continuation of the previous topical thread, but with the theme of "You may not be interested in {topic}, but {topic} is interested in YOU."

    Many of these issues have drifted right past the public consciousness - and it resounds very much with the theme Niemöller was referring to. I'm not needling Kris about Germany (well, not with undue reason) but the point is when "good men do nothing" you get this result. People like Techno will chortle and happily mock me as I'm executed, but then be dumbfounded when they get the same midnight visit a few months after mine.
     
  10. LozHinge the Unhinged

    LozHinge the Unhinged IncGamers Member

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  11. Technomancer

    Technomancer IncGamers Member

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    [​IMG]

    1. That video was a BS hitjob. They're not selling baby parts, they are donating remains to scientific research labs at the behest of the patient who would prefer something good come from it rather than nothing at all (just like normal organ donation). The payment they receive is compensation for storage and transportation of parts and tissue as is standard practice across the medical industry. Nothing illegal is happening, but the rage machine is in full swing because they wish something illegal was happening. That woman in the video will probably have to resign though to shut up the mouth breathers.

    2. So you link to a generic article talking about gays being allowed to be scout leaders, yet take it upon yourself to extrapolate that gays are child molesters? Don't look, but your homophobia is showing.

    3. I know you're in mourning for the war you've been chomping at the bit for for over a decade now, but hey, if the Iranians don't screw this up, I'm sure Bennie and his Republicans will try their (your) damnedest to. Netanyahu is Cheney with charisma, and no sacrifice of blood and treasure is too much, as long as it's U.S. blood and treasure.

    PS. It's been amusing watching you tip-toe around the fact the a nuclear Iran is so much scarier than a nuclear NK because...
    religion.

    4. That has parody written all over it, but even if it's not a joke, it's still a joke. I've known people (kids, more precisely) that thought they were actually vampires. They just needed to grow up.

    And no, I'm not afraid of vampires, I downright disapprove of them! :D

    Except for Jessica... daddy likes me some Jessica...
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2015
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  12. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    They already have all the parts for the machine gun and just have to assemble them properly, so the goal has to be to make them stop.

    It's easy to get enough uranium. Our planet consists of 3ppm of it, i.e. each ton of rock has 3 grams of uranium on average. That might be a bit ineffective, but if you are under an embargo, it's an option.

    The problem is enriching the U235, but that can be achieved with WW2 technology. Get uranium, get some stuff with flourine, produce flourine gas, produce UF6 gas, put it in a centrifuge repeatedly and sooner or later you will have enough U235 for a bomb. Iran just needs a safe place and a a certain amount of time. That place would be 1km below the surface or in a mountain. Regarding time, for how long have they endured the embargos so far? The population has certainly suffered, but I don't think that the Iranian government could be pressed into making more concessions, at least not for the price which the others were willing to pay.

    I wouldn't declare somebody an enemy before I'm ready and willing to do in full what has to be done with enemies, i.e. to defeat him. How far and substantial are the plans for the invasion and subjugation?
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2015
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  13. Glurin

    Glurin IncGamers Member

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    Wrong. They are by definition selling human remains. There is a monumental difference between "selling"and "donating", not the least of which is the former is big time illegal. Not to mention the fact that the "product" is coming from partial birth abortions, which are also highly illegal. And to top it all off, it's likely going to stem cell research, which is a whole other can of worms.

    And if you think this deal is going to do that.....You know what? I'm not even going to try and sugar coat it. If you think this deal will prevent Iran from getting a nuke in any way, you're a dumbass. No, you're even more stupid than that. You're complete and utter moron.

    The only incentive they have to not make nukes under this deal is that the sanctions would be put back in place, except with them now having nukes and a huge military stockpile.

    I'll give obama some credit though. This is indeed a historic deal. It's the starting signal for a nuclear arms race in the most violent and unstable region on Earth. Congratulations.

    [​IMG]
     
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  14. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    Where I'm from, it's only no sugar coating if you simply call me a dumbass and moron without a wimpy if-then clause. I would react with no sugar coating as well then, of course. However, we aren't where I'm from (but wait, the diabloii.net servers are located in Germany...), so I will put sugar coating around my reply.

    I'm insisting on a certain minimum of good manners, so in the above quote, I corrected your statement into what you hopefully meant and what would be barely acceptable. Letting somebody (seemingly) choose between being called a moron and agreeing to you is still pretty rude, but probably not over the top. I will assume that it's meant like that. I will still report this to Dredd, so he knows what's going on

    Regarding the topic: No, I don't believe that the agreement will prevent them from building a nuke, but you should have concluded that from my previous statement. You are confusing "preventing" with "making it impossible". You obviously cannot make it impossible for 90% of all countries in the world.

    The only way to make it impossible would be an invasion, occupation and subjugation, as I wrote. If that's your intent, what are you still talking about? Do it!

    The more time you waste with things like talking about it, the more time the opponents have to prepare and react... not just Iran, but also countries like Russia and China. Anyway, the fantasies of some people in the US about the extent of using war and violence to get get international affairs solved is amusingly naive, in particular with respect to the Middle East.

    You can make it less rewarding to build nukes, however. A good start would be stopping thought plays about invasions. That invokes their spite and makes it easy for the rulers to get the common people on their side when it's about enduring suffering.

    You don't really believe that the sanctions which the US were able to impose would have any effect or be of relevance regarding a nuclear weapon program, do you?

    Besides, the Iran isn't unstable at all and the amount of violence is lower than almost everywhere around. It's less of a terror regime and less suppressing than Saudi Arabia, your ally.
     
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  15. LozHinge the Unhinged

    LozHinge the Unhinged IncGamers Member

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    A Manners & Logic double-lesson :)

    It's like being back at school but with less bloodshed :D
     
  16. Dredd

    Dredd D3 Off Topic Moderator

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    Sorry to interrupt but we had a little incident this morning.

    Guys: I enjoy our controversial topics and understand that they can get heated. In recent months I've had to crack down on a few. In order to minimize future crackdowns and prevent the possibility that I'll have to resort to banning controversial topics altogether, it's very important that posters do their very best to try to keep the name-calling and ad-homs in check.

    I prefer to keep this subforum rules-lite. Avoid name-calling and it will stay that way. That is all. Carry on.
     
  17. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    FYI, I didn't demand any kind action from Dredd, it was his own decision. I'm not enjoying any privileges when it's about these issues.

    I hope this hasn't killed the thread. This time it's not jmervyn's fault!!11!
     
  18. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    I was camping. NO, the real sort.
    Actually, Glurin was pointing out that "preventing" or "making it impossible" are drastically different metrics from "giving them a huge pile of cash and ensuring that they can complete a project in under a decade".

    I felt his language was quite appropriate, obviously, given that Techno's response about his dear Mengele- caliber friends selling baby parts was complete and utter bullchirp and completely lacking any factual grounding. I suppose he would have claimed the "gotcha" interviews of Sarah Palin explicitly designed to destroy her were equally invalid? Is that lunar real estate still on septic and well water?

    Strawman much? Are you one of Dear Leader's ghostwriters?

    The point is, the sanctions WERE and ARE working - working far better than those against Iraq did - and it's only because you (Germans), the Chinese, and the Russians know that Dear Leader is on YOUR side that this issue is even being entertained. This treaty, simply put, is an existential threat to Israel - and Dear Leader mocks and sneers at the Jews. If you think that's hyperbole, you're sadly ignorant; Google Rashid Khalidi if you want some darknet-quality reading material.

    Prepare and react? PREPARE AND REACT? These sanctions were the result of over 10 years' worth of arm twisting (mind you, your German arms were some of those being twisted) and the complete falsehoods regarding triggers or red lines are only for purposes of coddling Low Information Voters like Techno: i.e. the people who actually believed that North Korea was being kept in a box, or that the USSR didn't have a full-blown Chemical/Biological Warfare program which was shared with Iraq.


    Why are you waving the "INVASION" flag so desperately? I'd like to keep one of the world's foremost sponsors of terrorism from getting their hands on $18 BILLION dollars worth of funding - for terrorism. You're cool with that, obviously.

    Oddly enough, it indeed seems to have been effective - for about the same passage of time as the war I participated in. Oh, I'm sorry, you didn't know that the nuclear race was originally between Iran and Iraq? Gee whillickers, Kris-Man!
    Yeah, I found the deafening silence from Dear Leader regarding the "Arab Spring" nearly toppling the Mullahs in Iran more than a little odd, considering how much of a cheerleader he was for it with our allies in Egypt. I suppose you know better than I do, right?
    Flattery will get you nowhere. Though in certain circumstances, it seems likely to result in large piles of Jewish bodies or a glowing crater where Tel Aviv used to be. But it's all good, right? I just heard some great stuff about a community not far from where I live that would have sounded like that scene out of Cabaret...


    Of course, I'm probably identifying with the Jews a little more frequently in recent days. Just for clarity (and Dredd) this isn't pointing at Kris - this is pointing at how much hatred is being cloaked as civility and decency at present day.

    Oh, and if you didn't get that last jab, here's a third video:

     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2015
  19. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    Building a nuke is not a matter of money, see North Korea. As said, you don't need much help from foreign countries to build a nuke. Sanctions can delay it, but they cannot make the sanctioned country lose its desire to get one.

    That means, the sanctions serve a different purpose. Not one of prevention, but one of a penalty. Applying jusrtice doesn't work well in international affairs, however, that belief is naive. All that works is "do what's opportune and what you can get away with it". I agree that the sanctions are a fair treatment towards Iran, but they aren't opportune for us.

    I understand that these demands help at getting votes in the own country, but I think that other manipulations of the people are more useful.

    So he called me a dumbass and moron for something said by Techno?

    Besides, selling body parts of dead fetuses is not Mengele caliber. Selling body parts of living children would be. We don't have to discuss this, however, I'm probably more sensitive about proper nazi comparisons than we have to be in this thread.

    I'm not building a strawman here. My point is not talking about invasions, but that it needs one to safely prevent a country from building a nuke, at least those which techically at least as advanced as *gasp* North Korea.

    The sanctions certainly have some effects, but not one of preventing Iran from building a nuke. That was my point.

    I lot of countries feel threatened by others, in particular in that place of the world.

    The sanctions don't help much at preventing them from building nukes. They also served different goals and the goals of different countries ussually... differ. Some people said that the US did it to cause problems to countries who receive a lot of oil from Iran, like (IIRC) France. I don't think that it is like that, but it's still a motive.

    There is no desparation in my logic. I really believe that this is the only way to prevent it. That's something different from demanding it. I don't want them to get it, but I'm not willing to achieve it with the means which i believe to be necessary to achieve that.

    Regarding the matter of funding terrorism: What do the Arabs do with all the dollars which they get from you for their oil? You don't really believe that all the terrorists and ISIS madmen from there fund their goals with that money. So who is accusing whom of what?

    Did I ever doubt that they wanted nukes when the two were enemies? Of course they wanted them. Every country wants them if they are at war of that magnitude. One of them would even have thrown them, either to end the race or as a last resort.

    There was no Arab Spring in Iran. First, they are no Arabs, but Persians [/smartass]. Second, there is no majority in Iran which feels suppressed. might have a fatalistic You and I might fell like that if we were in there situation, however.

    We agree about the clumsiness and naivety in the expectations reganding our reactions to the "Arab spring". the cartoon with the "cracy" pyramid comes to my mind, in which the "auto" top was carried away and the guys carrying the "demo" tip were astonished that there's also one with "theo" on it.

    It's a bit fatalistic and cynical to say it, but Iran is an island of stability there.

    Nukes can be thrown at many cities. Tel Aviv is one of them. Likewise, many countries have security desires. The problem is that they differ.

    I'm trying to apply as much pragmatism to international affairs as possible. That's no hatred, but I understand that it's opportune to accuse others of being emotional and to provoke them into becoming emotional. Your rhetorics are full of ugly namecallings and attempts to make fun of others. I'm immune to that.
     
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  20. LozHinge the Unhinged

    LozHinge the Unhinged IncGamers Member

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    'Before there can be "lap", there must first be "sit".' - An unknown Internet wag, explaining causality to a small kitten.

    I know why I thought of that just now, but can anyone else guess?
     
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