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Avenger Trouble

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by Thirty-Thirty, Apr 6, 2005.

  1. Thirty-Thirty

    Thirty-Thirty IncGamers Member

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    Avenger Trouble

    Ahoy,

    A friend of mine has a well-built and largely twinked Avenger at the Flayer Jungle waypoint, Hell difficulty. Next quest is Khalim's Brain (or whatever appropriate organ). I think he's level 78. Here's what I can remember of his stats and skills:

    Str: ~155
    Dex: Enough for max block with Holy Shield (~120ish?)
    Vit: Plenty. Probably ~150ish, maybe more.
    Ene: ~30: he was getting annoyed at the beginning of the game.

    Life: ~700, but thats my conservative estimate. Its probably closer to 900.
    Mana: 150ish.

    Skills: 20 Vengeance, 20 Conviction, 10 Holy Shield, 10 in each resistance, prerequisites. (This is all approximate.)

    Kit: Baranar's Star, Tiamat's Rebuke, Griswold's Heart, Infernostride, Gravepalm, I forget the rest.

    The character is struggling. The reason is: Lucian (that's the Pally's name) starts attacking monster X. Monster X's friends all start coming over, and attacking. Now, Lucian could kill the monsters, if he could land a hit, but he keeps getting interrupted by the block animation. So Lucian slowly gets worn down, as monsters occasionally slip past his defense and blocking. So how do we get around this problem? I have the following ideas. Please comment and/or add more.

    1. Get more IAS. I know its tricky, but its still possible. The gloves can be beat, as can the belt, and probably the helm. Maybe socket then Shael Baranar's, if it'd help.

    2. Put a point in Conversion. That'll take off some of the brunt, but still involves getting into the fray a bit. (To land the hits.)

    3. Less likely, switch to an HF merc, rather than the defiance moron that he has now. Slow those buggers down.

    4. Twink on an item that has a charges of a summonable.

    5. Now that I think about it, maybe even get a cold mage from Act III.

    6. Start using Zeal more, although the damage will be very low. (One could add CB to boost this, but then you're starting to become a Zealot anyway. We want to keep him using Vengeance mainly.)

    7. Switch to Guradian Angel to get a faster block rate. Maybe even change the shield.

    All of this represents my brainstorming. With more thought, some of these ideas can go away, and more can pop-up in their place. Either way, please post any other ideas*, and or commentary on these. It'd be a shame for Lucian not to make it to the Patriarch: he is a well-built character.

    Thanks,
    30-30

    *As people like me often have to point out, equipping Exile or Chains of Honour doesn't qualify. My highest rune is a Vex, his is a Lem. Also, the item base is pretty good, but I haven't picked up a Tyrael's might just yet, if you know what I mean.
     
  2. Mankey

    Mankey IncGamers Member

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    Unless your usign the whole set (which it sounds like your not) Don't use griz peices. GA is king for any melee pally.

    Although tiamats is an ok shield for disposing of PI's, PIs aren't a probelm with an avenger. Use the good ole HoZ.

    And sadly the best thing to do that reqires no gear, but time and patience is to get a HF merc. Chilled, slowed enemies make for easy pickings. Every single target char I've ever made used a HF merc save one. The Iron Barb. But he was using a 2 hander anyways so no blocking annimation.
     
  3. DougTheHead2

    DougTheHead2 IncGamers Member

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    Well, remember the FHR table for Pallys, it can really help. I went up by 3 frames when I found this table by slapping on 34. It can really help, like ALOT. It's a bonus on many nice boots/belts.

    Fast Hit Recovery
    0% fhr - 9 frames
    7% fhr - 8 frames
    15% fhr - 7 frames
    27% fhr - 6 frames
    48% fhr - 5 frames
    86% fhr - 4 frames
    200% fhr - 3 frames
     
  4. frosty

    frosty IncGamers Member

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    Holy freeze to slow them down. Or Dracul's for Life Tap.
     
  5. Asmodeous

    Asmodeous IncGamers Member

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    I think the problem is the tiamats shield and its low defence.

    With only 10 points in holy shield and the low base defence of the shield, your friends defence I would say is around the 3-4 kay mark which isnt good for a pally.

    Going to a HoZ will boost the base defence and boost the level of holy shield as well. Then you should be getting a defence of around 7-8 kay or so.

    The game checks for defence first, then shield blocking. If your defence defeats an attack, then your pally does not do any hit or block animation. it is only when the shield's blocking defeats and attack will the pally do the block animation of 2 frames.

    Good as holy shield is, the main benefit imho is not the 75% chance to block. It is the boost to defence, that reduces the amount of block animations.

    Also, baranar's star is very mediocre for a avenger weapon. Its slow. it bases at 11 frames with the on board ias and needs a total of 120% ias to reach 9 frames which is where the weapon needs to be to be a viable end game weapon.
    a better weapon for the avenger would be rune master. You need a total of 80% ias for this weapon to reach 10 fps attacks, so highlords, ias gloves and two shaels. But, your far better off putting 3 ias jewels in the griswolds armor, getting ias gloves and an amulet and then saving the rune master sockets for enhanced damage. 5 even average ed jewels can add 120% ed which will add an extra 39 - 79 points of damage. If you can get the average damage of rune master up to 200 points, or 300% enhanced damage, then you have a solid end game avenger weapon.

    an extract from my avenger guide;

     
  6. Chimaira

    Chimaira IncGamers Member

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    There's not really much I can add...except that you need to change some of your equipment. Gravepalm gloves are very very bad...Bloodfists would be way better or maybe some rare gloves with 20% IAS and other good mods.
    I'd also ditch the Infernostrides unless you're really low on fire resist, another cheap alternative would be Tearhaunch..very nice boots and +2 Vigor for getting out of sticky situations. I don't think an item with charges of summonables is the answer...the creatures you will summon are way to weak to make a difference. Just listen to the advice presented here and try to break up monsters into smaller groups...that ought to help a bit. The paladin should definitely have some sort of summonable creature, to help him out.
     
  7. Day

    Day IncGamers Member

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    I'd second/third the Holy freeze merc and a higher damage weapon some rares can be very good - I have an Atgahn with 403% enhanced damage for example.

    I'd also suggest getting some Crushing Blow (Blood Gloves can be crafted if you don't have Goblin Toe or Gorerider). If you are playing players 1 in makes a huge differnce.
     
  8. DeathMaster

    DeathMaster IncGamers Member

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    I have no experience with this build, but in general speaking, lvl78 is too low to enter A3. All my build would be still in A1 at this level.
     
  9. Gouda

    Gouda IncGamers Member

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    I would say that your level is good enough, but a few things could be nice to know before giving 'the best' advice.

    What is his to hit %? Maybe the problem is also that he misses too much, which is dangerous esp. with a rather slow attack (which also gets interrupted). His dex doesn't seem that high, and i saw no other obvious AR adding equipment in your list. Leveling could help solving this problem as well, offcourse.

    In general, an avenger is best served with a high physical damage weapon, so the baranar's could be improved upon. He will create his own elemental damage, so the elemental damage on the baranars is not that usefull.

    Gouda
     
  10. Thirty-Thirty

    Thirty-Thirty IncGamers Member

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    Okay, his AR probably isn't that great, I agree. However, Conviction should be lower enemies' defense by something like 90%, so I don't see that helping much, unless there's something about Conviction I don't know.

    Getting a weapon with more damage... huh? If Vengeance trebles elemental damage, how much better can you do than Baranar's Star, even if it is slightly slower? Besides, surely its not that slow? (50% IAS on base 10 = -40, no?) Well, you're more likely to be right than me. Should he use one of the elite one-handers with huge elemental damages? I'm thinking Nord's Tenderizer, Demon Limb, Djinn Slayer. These the right idea? Or maybe a Horizon's Tornado, which is around? (But it has no elemental damage. I really think I've misunderstood how Vengeance works. It scales up the elemental damage listed on your weapon, no?)

    As for armour, he'll get Guardian Angel for sure, but he'll get it from me, and I wasn't sure how much it'd help. Sounds like a quite a bit, especially with the hit recovery.

    The shield is tough to better for us, simply because neither of us has any better shields. I haven't picked up any Heralds of Zakarum at all. I do have some half-decent rares though, but they're no better than Tiamat's, as far as I know.
    This I know is true. Laying of Hands is a good start, I reckon, but I have a couple of good elites, I think. Easy place to get IAS. (I'll probably twink the belt too. I can remember IAS somewhere...)
    I was hoping no-one would tell me something like that, but I can see the truth in it. Anyone happen to know the highest level these boys can spawn, and the quickest way of levelling them?
     
  11. corax

    corax IncGamers Member

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    @30-30: vengeance doesn't affect the elemental damage on baranar's at all. The vengeance damage is determined by the physical damage on your weapon. so theres better choices. although i love baranars star and it has awesome cool style
     
  12. Thirty-Thirty

    Thirty-Thirty IncGamers Member

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    You're kidding. My entire theory on Avengers just got rewritten. So then I just need the biggest, fastest, hurtiest one-handed weapon I can find? That should solve any damage problems.

    Then how does Vengeance work? What damage is it scaling? The physical only? The physical and elemental?
     
  13. Gohanman

    Gohanman IncGamers Member

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    Vengeance ADDS a percentage elemental damage based on your base weapon damage.

    Asmo is pretty spot on, although the average damage on a BStar is way down around 145ish. Looking at the table he posted, you'd have to be swinging at about 7fpa to be effective (which is impossible).
     
  14. Chimaira

    Chimaira IncGamers Member

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  15. Thirty-Thirty

    Thirty-Thirty IncGamers Member

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    Well, thats probably the start of the problems: he's probably not killing anything fast enough. Thanks for all your help, should get ol' Lucian the Lepton (that is his full name) back on track. I'll dig out a Rune Master and as many Shaels as I can.

    Incidentally, does my avatar appear properly on your screens? Mine is a bit dodge.
     
  16. whomhead

    whomhead IncGamers Member

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    NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!! *sobs*

    I can't believe you put that in your guide! This is NOT how vengeance works. Not even close. Each skill point in Vengeance adds 6% damage to each of three elements. That's 18% ED for each skill point! That's more per point than almost any other skill and is also more beneficial, damage-wise, than adding points to the synergies for vengeance.

    OK, not more ranting. Or at least I'll try.

    33, I agree with the advice allready given to you. The best weapon for an avenger is one that gives you massive amounts of physical damage as fast as possible. Barring an uber rare, (400%ED, 40% IAS) your best bet straight out of the box is probably Nord's Tenderizer. Its fast, does tons of damage, and freezes monsters. Monsters that aren't hitting you aren't sending you into hit recovery. Others may disagree with Nord's as the best weapon, and maybe a well-designed Runemaster would beat it (as asmo suggested) but it would take 5 sockets to get you there.

    Next up defense. Just FYI, Holy Shield now multiplies your total defense, not just the defense on your shield. So getting a high-defense shield is less important than getting high total defense. HoZ is head-and-shoulders the best avenger shield, but its also kind of hard to find. Other good things to look for are high % blocking, resists, +skills, and high defense.

    Next, you shouldn't have to worry about AR. You already know to not let the character screen fool you there. Unless a monster has blocking, you shold almost never miss with a high level of conviction.

    I'd also suggest switching to GA as his armor. You just can't beat having 95% resist all. With all of my avengers (i've got 3) I just love sitting there in the middle of a crowd and ignoring all of them cause I've got 95% res all, 75% blocking, and usually about 30% PDR and MDR. Even the ancients can barely dent you through all of that.

    Good luck!
     
  17. Fafner

    Fafner IncGamers Member

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    Whomhead hit the nail on the head for a cheap avenger. Nord's is what I used to pat my namesake, Fafner. His equip was actually quite ridiculous by my standards now (knowing more and owning more) but he used a 4 socket Heraldic shield and a 318% Nords. I used to zeal away until the mob was frozen then switch to vengeance to finish em off.

    I put one point in conversion and it was the pt. I ever spent. With conversion, I could take on those Frenzytaurs and live to tell about it. Conversion you make the mob kill its own and while it's doing that you nuke the boss with the unfriendly mods/aura. The rest go down the same way.

    His other equip would make people chuckle, but he eventually found his own GA. Once you add a Nords and a high defence shield, I'll bet you mow em down.
     
  18. Kaptain_Insano

    Kaptain_Insano IncGamers Member

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    i have a grandfather sword still collecting dust. Aside from not having a shield would this be a good use for my GF? or can u name a better build
    i have a ww ik barb so it can't be another ww. i've heard frenziers use it.

    Cheers K
     
  19. Fafner

    Fafner IncGamers Member

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    When I tried to use a big hurty stick on switch, it worked for non mob situations. I can only guess as to how much damage a grandfather in a lvl 80 char would do with vengeance. I don't see it as an all the time weapon though.
     
  20. Tom_S

    Tom_S IncGamers Member

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    Just thought of another thing.

    How does external ED (say AlmaNegra) work with vengeance?

    If it get's applied before Vengeance then it would probably pay of to get some.

    *Starts gathering his ED gear just in case*

    Gogo Biggin's Bonnet :D
     

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