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Avenger Paladin Build - Suggestions Please

Discussion in 'Paladin' started by Jedouard, Sep 14, 2009.

  1. Jedouard

    Jedouard Diabloii.Net Member

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    Avenger Paladin Build - Suggestions Please

    So, I have pretty much established what my build for my Avenger Paly is going to be. I am posting it here for review and constructive criticism:

    stats:
    strength - as little as possible to equip gear (approx. 140)
    dex - only enough to get max block with holy shield
    energy - none
    vitality - all the rest

    skill point allocation (skills/adder skills):

    defensive auras:
    fire resist (20/30)
    cold resist (20/30)
    lightning resist (20/30)
    salvation (1/21)

    offensive auras:
    might (1/11)
    holy fire (1/11)
    thorns (1/11)
    holy freeze (1/11)
    sanctuary (1/11)
    conviction (15/25)

    combat skills:
    sacrifice (1/20)
    smite (1/20)
    holy bolt (1/20)
    zeal (1/20)
    charge (1/20)
    vengeance (20/39) (+500% to cold/fire/lightning)
    blessed hammer (1/20)
    holy shield (1/20)

    108 skills in all, maxing cold/fire/lightning resist aura should be last.

    items:
    Paladin:
    armor - ormos' robes (socket UM) - 15% cold/fire/lightning skill damage (I verified this works with vengeance), 15% resist all

    helm - griffon's eye circlet (socket CHAM) - +1 skills, -20% enemy lightning resist, +15% lightning skill damage, cannot be frozen

    shield - phoenix runeword on a chromatic sacred targe - 15 redemption aura, -28% enemy fire resist, +10 maximum fire resist, + 5 maximum lightning resist, 50% resist all (I have verified that the chromatic "resist-all" modifier sticks around).

    belt - arachnid mesh - +1 skills, 10% slow enemy

    boots - gore riders - 10% open wounds, 15% crushing blow, 30% faster run/walk

    gloves - steelrend - 10% crushing blow

    ring - bul-kathos' wedding band - +1 skill, 5% life leech

    ring - bul-kathos' wedding band - +1 skill, 5% life leech

    amulet - mara's kaleidoscope - +2 skills, 30% resist all, 5 all attributes

    weapon - death runeword on ethereal superior berserker axe - 400% enhanced damage, 7% mana stolen, 50% crushing blow

    charms-
    9 perfect lion branded grand charms of vita - +9 to combat skills, + 450 HP
    10 perfect sshimmering small charms of vita - 50% resist all, +200 HP
    1 perfect annihilus - +1 skills, 20% resist all, 20 all attributes
    1 perfect hellfire torch - +3 skills, 20% resist all, 20 all attributes

    act v merc:
    weapon - doom runeword on ethereal berserker axe - +2 skills, 12 holy freeze, +45% attack Speed, +370% damage, -60% enemy cold resistance, 20% Deadly Strike, 25% Chance of Open Wounds

    weapon - beast runeword axe - 9 fanaticism, +40% Attack Speed, +270% Damage, 20% Crushing Blow, 25% Open Wounds

    armor - chains of honor - +2 Skills, +200% Damage To Demons, +100% Damage To Undead, 8% Life Leech, +70% Defense, Replenish Life +7
    All Resistances +65, Damage Reduced By 8%

    helm - andariel's visage (socket CHAM) - +2 Skills, +20% Attack Speed, 10% Life Leech, +10% To Maximum Poison Resist, Poison Resist +70%

    -----

    as a result I should have:

    1) +10 to all skills, +9 to combat skills
    2) max block
    3) 85% resist cold/fire/lightning and 75% resist poison in Hell with 95% max fire resist, 90% lightning resist, 85% max cold resist, 75% max lightning resist
    4) cannot be frozen
    5) level 39 vengeance with +500% to cold/fire/lightning
    6) level 25 conviction (unbreakable in-game) for -150% enemy cold/fire/lightning resist, -92% enemy defense
    7) Additional -28% enemy fire resist, -20% enemy lightning resist
    8) +15% cold/fire skill damage, +30% lightning skill damage
    9) 75% chance for crushing blow
    10) 10% chance for open wounds
    11) 10% life leech
    12) 7% mana leech
    13) significant attack speed benefits from merc fanaticism
    14) slowing effect of 50% from merc doom and 10% from belt
    15) redemption aura always running, fueling life and mana and removing corpses
    16) a merc with: 25% open wounds, 20% crushing blow, very high attack speed, 18% life leech, very high damage, 75% resist cold/fire/lightning and 85% resist poison

    ------

    In sum:

    In Hell difficulty, with the more difficult monsters having around 18k life, one immunity that is unbreakable, two other two resistances reduced to -100% and 50% physical resist, I am looking at dealing 7900 damage with a 75% chance to do an additional 2250 damage with crushing blow. (If I could get all of the resistance to -100%, there were no physical resistances and I manage a crushing blow, that will be more like 16400 damage taken, but that is not likely. And, in either case it would require two hits to kill the monster.)

    The high resistances, block rate, damage and attack speed, the protection from monster conviction and iron maiden, the slowed enemies, the replenishment and ridding of corpses by the redemption aura, the crushing blow, the open wounds and the powerful merc all make this a strong build. Plus, I have the gear ready.



    So, what are the weaknesses and what are your suggestions?
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2009
  2. mephiztophelez

    mephiztophelez Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Avenger Paladin Build - Suggestions Please

    i really, really, REALLY wouldn't be going with steelrends. the strength requirement is nasty.

    if you want CB on gloves, craft some blood-gloves.

    with a Death Zerk, you're attack speed will be a little slow without mass IAS elsewhere.
     
  3. DudSpud

    DudSpud Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Avenger Paladin Build - Suggestions Please

    You are WAY too rich for my experience with Avengers to be of much help, but I would suggest giving up the 1 pt in Salvation for 1 pt in Redemption. ML is great, but at higher plvls, the occasional Remption flash really helps to refill the blue orb. If you have tried it out and the ML/LL works for you, then go the Salvation route.

    I guess by "chromatic" you are referring to a paly shield with inherent +Res on it. If you are referring to a blue paly shield, you cannot make any runeword in it. Period.

    You probably already know this, but the -CR from the Doom only works on badies that your merc attacks; it will not boost your cold damage.

    Good luck,
    TehSpud



     
  4. Norrit

    Norrit Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Avenger Paladin Build - Suggestions Please

    While act 5 mercs are barbarians, they can't use axes. and they can't dual wield. :(

    I would suggest and act 1 merc with faith great bow instead. reaching that attack speed is super important.
     
  5. Jedouard

    Jedouard Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Avenger Paladin Build - Suggestions Please

    Mephiztophelez: duly noted. I will make the change.

    DudSpud: Yeah, it stinks that the doom negative resists only work with the merc, but I was mainly using the doom for the 50% slow enemy. As for redemption, the Phoenix shield will give me an active level 15 redemption aura at all times, and the chromatic mod is a non-magic, native mod on the shield.

    Norrit: That completely sucks. So, which do you think is most useful: attack speed with a Faith Act 1 merc, or slow 50% with holy freeze on an act 4 merc with an additional aura (probably prayer)?
     
  6. Ragnarod

    Ragnarod DiabloII.Net Pal

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    Re: Avenger Paladin Build - Suggestions Please

    Pala shields can get at most 45 all res as an automod, not 50 I'm afraid. I guess you'll do nicely, since your gear is top of the line, but from looking at your item choices I have the feeling you haven't taken much into account that Avengers are melee chars in the end. You seem to have focused on +skills and -enemy resistances, but what about IAS, DR, FHR? Sorcs can get away with that since their attacks are ranged, but you'll have to get close to the monsters to deliver all that elemental damage, and I'm not very sure it'll work as well as it looks on paper.

    Besides that, have you considered using some +max damage charms instead of the pala combats? Perhaps it's not worth it, since your Holy Shield level might be a tad low then, but increasing your base physical damage will in turn increase the elemental damage you're dealing with Vengeance. I don't know if it would be enough to compensate for the lower skill level, but that might very well be the case, and more physical damage also means more leech (that's always good to have).

    I don't mean to tell you that your setup won't work, though! It's even possible that it works better than the more traditional setup, I'm just pointing out possible flaws I see with it, so you can consider whether they're important to you or not.

    Oh, and I almost forgot... you won't really be inmune to IM, since you'll still be dealing quite a bit of physical damage coupled with all the elemental damage, be careful!
     
  7. Jedouard

    Jedouard Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Avenger Paladin Build - Suggestions Please

    My mistake on the 50 resist all chromatic. You are right: it is 45.

    I looked at the numbers in switching out the skill charms for damage charms and it really did not seem worth it given the reduction in Holy Shield.

    With regards to IAS, DR and FHR:

    I was hoping that the 50% slow on the doom would make up for IAS. I am not that experienced with melee chars, but on the few I have made, I found that a boost of a couple frames on attack speed never matched slowing enemies 50% (60% if you count arachnid mesh) in terms of keeping me alive with single-target skills.

    I was also hoping that the 15 redemption would take care of the need for DR. I had to make a trade-off on the gear, and since vengeance is so costly, I thought a faster kill rate followed by regaining life and replenishing mana was a better option than a slower kill rate and less damage taken without the regain and replenishment (or at least not as much because I would have fewer kills).

    Lastly, for FHR, I was hoping to take a couple of routes around it. I understand that you only go into hit recovery when you take a hit over 1/12th of your HP. With very high life, high resists, 50% slow and 75% block rate at a 2-frame speed (Holy Shield), I was hoping to avoid going into the hit recovery animation most of the time.

    I could be wrong on all of this. And, I will need to look into getting my resists up further.

    I would like to hear from anyone who has made a choice between a merc with doom versus a merc with faith or beast.
     
  8. Ragnarod

    Ragnarod DiabloII.Net Pal

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    Re: Avenger Paladin Build - Suggestions Please

    You know, you might be right, I'd like to see you try it out and let us know how did it turn out :) About mercs, the Ice runeword has Holy Freeze too... not sure about the choice between Holy Freeze and Fana (from Faith, no merc can use Beast since it's axes/scepters/hammers only), to be honest. You could have both if you hired a Holy Freeze act2 merc and gave him Infinity, using Fana yourself, but then you'd be stuck with a lvl 12 Conviction :(
     
  9. Jedouard

    Jedouard Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Avenger Paladin Build - Suggestions Please

    You know, I think you may be onto something.

    So, here is my idea:

    1) I get a Holy Freeze merc and give him Infinity. Most Hell monsters are immune to one element, and my level 25 conviction will not change that. As for the Hell Monsters other two elements, their resistances are usually at zero. The level 12 conviction aura (-80% resists) combined with my on-gear negative-resists will still leave me at -80% cold, -100% lightning, and -108% for fire, meaning that for most non-immune resistances all but cold will be maxed at -100%.

    2) I will not change my skill distribution at all, keeping a higher conviction aura for when I hit boss packs with conviction aura. Instead, I will use my salvation aura (level 21 after adder skills for +109% cold/fire/lightning resist) whenever I do not have to beat a conviction aura higher than 12 or high resist bosses. However, I will have a weapon switch to Beast/Phoenix for regular play, which gives me the level 9 fanaticism aura, increased weapon speed and several other bonuses. Although Beast will reduce my damage, it will not be so much that it will take more than two hits to kill Hell Act V monsters, which is what I was looking at anyway. Plus, Infinity makes my merc slightly more damaging. And, whenever I hit a high-conviction or high-resist monster, I just switch to Death/Phoenix (or a different shield in corpse-less Uber Tristram) and my 25 Conviction and I am good to go.

    With this set up, I may be able to devote one of my sockets to a facet jewel to make up for some of the loss in cold skill damage.
     
  10. niner

    niner Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Avenger Paladin Build - Suggestions Please

    You're gonna get stuck in places and die. You will come across some monsters that have mana drain. You will then become a normal attacker with no mana. Therefore no added elem dmg. You should consider some defensive minded gears for these times rather that focusing on so much offensive power gears.

    When you arent being mana drained you will do just fine as like a slow moving tank that one-hit kills everything. Everything one at a time though.
     
  11. Jedouard

    Jedouard Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Avenger Paladin Build - Suggestions Please

    You don't think 7% mana leech, 15 redemption, max block and 75-95 resist, 50% slow (54% if I go with the Holy Freeze merc) will be enough to protect me from mana drainers?

    What gear do you suggest?
     
  12. Asmodeous

    Asmodeous Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Avenger Paladin Build - Suggestions Please

    Firstly, your skill points. All good! :thumbup:

    Next, equipment. Where do I start? :scratchchin:

    - Armor. Yes, the bonus from Ormus works with vengeance. But so does skill levels. 15% is equivilant to 2.5 skill levels of vengeance (6% per level) and given that your obviously item wealthy, CoH has +2 to all skills so is the same as a 12% Ormus, but look at all the extra benefits of CoH over Ormus. Alternatively, +2 Arkaines. Better defence as well which will be a benefit with Holy shields boost to defence.

    - Helm. Griffin Eye? The negative to enemy lightning resists is worth squat with Conviction. When you encounter a target with resistance v lightning over 100%, then the negative to resists is reduced to 1/5 over 100% for breaking the resistance so griffin eye's 20% is only worth 4% extra light damage, only if you actually break the targets light resistance to below 100%.The 15% extra light damage is the same as 5% to all three elements which means that again, griffins eye is beaten by skills. Any helm with +2 skills will beat Griffin eye on an avenger. Another one to consider is a 2 socket CoA. then you get resists, PDR, one socket for the cham and the other for a crimson jewel of carnage or something with min/max damage or IAS depending on your needs. That'll pwn griffins. But then again, so would dream.

    - Pheonix? I guess the level 15 redemption aura would be useful, I guess. :whistling: The nagative to enemy fire resists is worth squat (see comments on griffins) but the redemption aura might be useful. I much prefer the extra vengeance damage from HoZ from the skill level boost myself.

    - Gloves. Pretty much agree with whats already been said so far on gloves. I have used Bloodfist myself on avengers because of the 10% IAS and the +5 min damage. Nice leveling gloves for avengers. Another one is good old LoH for the IAS and fire resists. if you need 20% ias from your gloves, it's hard to beat except fwith a good blood crafted as 350% off weapon ed isn't worth much from a poor physical damage base as an avengers so any blood craft with decent stats and CB would be better. Another one is lava gout for the enchant casts if your weapon swap is used for gaining barbarian war cries.

    Rest of the gear looks ok to me. I prefer damage charms over skillers. A +10 max damage will beat a +1 combat any day on an avenger.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2009
  13. Jedouard

    Jedouard Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Avenger Paladin Build - Suggestions Please

    I pretty sure the "X% to Y skill damage" modifier does not work that way with vengeance. I was under the impression that, for example, with my build the Ormus Robe's +15% to cold/fire/lightning skill damage does not add to, but multiplies the 500% cold/fire/lightning weapon damage, leaving me with 575% cold/fire/lightning damage.

    I could be wrong on this, but I believe that is how it functions with everything but the Sorc' fire and lightning mastery bonuses, to which it just adds. This is why I chose Ormus Robe's and Griffon Eye, the latter of which would be pointless if I were just using it for negative resists and running conviction myself.

    As for the Redemption aura it seems pretty necessary and not that much of a draw back if the "+X% to Y skill damage" works the way I think it does.

    But I could be wrong on all of this.
     
  14. onderduiker

    onderduiker Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Avenger Paladin Build - Suggestions Please

    +% Fire, Lightning and Cold Skill Damage don't add to Vengeance's +% fire, lightning and cold damage, they're applied afterwards: if Vengeance is applying +500% fire, lightning and cold damage, then a +2 All Skills armour will increase this to +512% each, whereas Ormus' Robes Dusk Shroud's +10-15% Fire, Lightning and Cold Skill Damage would effectively increase this to +560-590% each (with no other +% Skill Damage equipped).

    -% Enemy Resistance would be redundant with level 25+ Conviction against Resist 50% or less, but while it's completely ineffective against immunities, it's 100% effective once those immunities are broken: only Resist -% from Conviction and Lower Resist can break elemental immunities, and works at 1/5 effectiveness when doing so.

    In Hell level 25+ Conviction is capable of breaking practically every normal Immune to Lightning monster, and practically every normal Immune to Fire monster in Acts 1-4, so -% Enemy Fire and Lightning Resistance could significantly increase damage against these monsters: use Lower Resist charges as well and every normal Immune to Lightning monster can be broken, as can every normal Immune to Fire monster in Acts 1-4.


    Fire Mastery is +% Fire Skill Damage, Lightning Mastery is +% Lightning Skill Damage and Cold Mastery is -% Enemy Cold Resistance, which is why those item modifiers add to the skills: they're the same thing.


     
  15. Asmodeous

    Asmodeous Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Avenger Paladin Build - Suggestions Please

    Interesting. I wasn't aware that the LCS was displaying the damage from Ormus's robes wrong. I prefer armors with +2 to skills over Ormus's robes because the LCS displays the damage as being higher with the + 2 skills armor versus ormus's on my sorceress's. (though I don't own a perfect 15% all ormus).
    I'm pretty sure that was the case with my Justiciar (fanatism + vengeance) as well, with Arkaines armor showing more vengeance damage in the LCS than Ormus's robe did.

    Could it be that Ormus's robes bonus is working of the straight vengeance damage before synergies? 15% of 300% odd instead of 500%? Or is it a straight up LCS problem displaying the correct damage?



     
  16. Eilo Rytyj

    Eilo Rytyj Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Avenger Paladin Build - Suggestions Please

    DEFINITELY get rid of one of those Bul-Kathos rings. Use a Raven Frost instead, it's a far superior choice as it'll result in a higher life total than BK. You can ditch that Cham in the helm for something better then. Also consider a dual-leech rare ring for the second ring slot as well.

    I'm also another one in favour of the Chains of Honour as the armour. It's got a lot of friendlier mods on it for an Avenger than just a slight damage increase.

    Andariel's Visage also makes a decent Avenger helm with its +2 skills, 20% IAS and near-immunity to poison. Also consider a Delirium runeword for its +2 skills and defensive AI-altering Curses or even a Dream helm - the Holy Shock aura it grants shares synergies with Vengeance.

    You'll also be attacking FAR too slow with the Death Berserker Axe at 14 fpa. Bring it down to 12 fpa with some 20% IAS gloves or to 11 fpa with a 15% IAS Jewel in the helm as well. It's still slow, but bearable. Switching to a BotD Berserker Axe gives you a 10 fpa attack outright (higher damage over time than the Death axe) and an extra 35% IAS gets you to 9 fpa. All that Crushing Blow is for naught if you're putting it down slower than a Decrepify'd Zombie. The huge raw elemental damage you'll be dealing with Vengeance usually outclasses Crushing Blow on regular monsters anyway.

    Consider an Act 1 merc with a Faith bow if only to get your attack speed to a respectable level.
     
  17. Kinky

    Kinky Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Avenger Paladin Build - Suggestions Please

    I haven't read all of the replies, but here's my 0.02:

    Griffon's Eye--can be replaced. Granted, the -Light Res might be useful, but keep in mind you already have a level 25 Conviction active; also because there are many better alternatives (suggested above), including Andy's, Dream, and my personal favorite for any meleedin: CoA.
    I'm also in favor of CoH and getting rid of one BK. Ravenfrosts will provide you with some good AR and the extra Dex you'll need for max block. If your skill distribution could spare it, I'd personally take off the second BK for a solid dual leech ring with dex/resist mods (hey, you're rich as hell, you should be able to afford one :))

    I probably wouldn't do Phoenix if I were in your shoes. If it were up to me it'd be the Staple HOZ for the skill boosts and sturdy resists/defense, or go the extra mile to find yourself a good Exile. With Exile setup you'll be able to hit 90 Fire and Cold resist caps easily as well as provide a really respectable defense for maximum durability. Exile would also help you out with any LL problems with Life Tap.

    Doom seems like a solid weapon for the purposes of your build, but it's not available in a sword-medium and you'll therefore lack lots of speed. The best way to get past this is not to throw in Shaels/IAS jewels, but to just get a Faith Merc (which really benefits her as much as it benefits you).


    -Kinky
     
  18. Eilo Rytyj

    Eilo Rytyj Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Avenger Paladin Build - Suggestions Please

    Phoenix is a decent idea for its auto-Redemption aura. As you should know an Avenger can be a real mana hog, sucking up all of the bodies every time one drops will keep you swinging away happily. Its +400% off-weapon enhanced damage is also great for powering your life and mana steal capabilities with a weapon like eDeathZ or eBotDZ as it adds another ~700-2000 physical damage to each hit.

    Doom, being non-ethereal, really pales in comparison to BotD or Death in the damage department. Nothing against it, it's just got low damage. Next best after BotD and Death on the runeword list would be an ethereal Oath weapon.

    Since when were Swords any faster than equvalent speed Axes? Unless you're thinking of a Phase Blade, in which case that's doubly worse for an Avenger - the low base damage of a Phase Blade means that you'll end up having a low Vengeance damage without some serious +max damage Charms and Jewels.



     
  19. onderduiker

    onderduiker Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Avenger Paladin Build - Suggestions Please

    I've checked this and there doesn't seem to be any issue with the character screen: it displayed Vengeance damage correctly with varying levels of Vengeance, synergies and +% Skill Damage... it's possible that this wasn't the case in an earlier patch, though.

    A +2 All Skills armour could result in more Vengeance damage for a Kingslayer Sorceress than Ormus' Robes Dusk Shroud: +2 Fire Mastery applies +14% Fire Skill Damage and +2 Lightning Mastery applies +24% Lightning Skill Damage, so the +2 Skills armour should result in more damage if Ormus' Robes applied less than +38% Skill Damage combined (unless you were equipping lots of items adding cold damage)... it could also result in more damage with Enchant and an Ormus' Robes with less than +14% FSD and no +3 Enchant, particularly if you were equipping a lot of items adding fire and lightning damage.


     
  20. Metathrom

    Metathrom Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Avenger Paladin Build - Suggestions Please

    I'd actually keep your skill and gear setup except for the gloves (I'd suggest gloves with IAS), amulet (something with IAS as well) and weapon (use BotD or Doom in Berserker Axes, although Doom is more of a defensive weapon).

    Phoenix shield in a good paladin res shield is a fantastic idea, but if you don't like it/can't afford it use a more common shield (such as Stormshield or HoZ) and get a Prayer/Insight mercenary for the mana boost and good life regen.

    As for the armor, if you find out that +2 Skills work better than Ormus (I can't verify that atm), I suggest using Arkaine's Valor or CoH if you can afford it, for good damage reduction/resistances respectively.

    Also, if you find out that you're dealing enough damage just with the weapon and the vengeance synergies, you could try getting DR/DR% equipment on the armor, helm and belt slots and see how it works. Crown of Ages, Arkaine's Valor, Gladiator's Bane, Shafstop, Strings and Verdungo's are good items for that purpose.
     

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