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Avenger or Zealot

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by ducko, Jan 10, 2016.

  1. ducko

    ducko IncGamers Member

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    Hi it's me again, don't think I'll do Bowazon since multishot sucks for untwinked. Well I think I'll do an Avenger or Zealot instead. Any comments on which you think would be more fun or better? Once again, I want to play untwinked P8 for most part of the game.

    Would need help on what skills I should put on, especially for Avenger (Zealot's pretty straightforward). Also, what are good weapons I should be looking out for. Are Scepters any good?
     
  2. Delsy

    Delsy IncGamers Member

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    Untwinked avenger is about as good as untwinked bowazon. :D With zealot you have a good chance to find a decent unique or rare weapon, which can be upgraded to elite. Also merc with fanaticism will be a good killer. Hell on P8 will still be a long shot though. I wonder if you ever played it. :p
     
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  3. kestegs

    kestegs D3 Monk Moderator

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    P8 hell untwinked is tough for any character. It's especially tough for a weapon dependant build though.

    But with that being said I would certainly say zealot is the better of those two choices.
     
  4. Gynli

    Gynli IncGamers Member

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    There is a big jump in difficulty from NM to Hell.
    You'll sometimes find your self steamrolling through NM and hit a brick wall in Hell,
    only to return to NM to gear up some more.
    and I just want to emphasize how difficult Hell p8 is for an untwinked character - even for semi twinked characters.
    Most people aim for /p8 on Normal and NM and /p1~3 for Hell in many of the tournaments.

    Once you gain some experience dealing with hell mobs - mainly through dying lol - you'll naturally learn how to approach each pack of mobs, what mods to avoid, what mods to wish for etc. And with time, you will gradually bump up the player settings to fit your needs.

    As far the build goes, zealot will take you very far into hell; and with some lucky weapon drops you should be able to Pat him without too much difficulty. =P Just hold off on the Hell /p8 challenge for a little while.

    Just my 2cents.
    Good luck sir. =D

    Edit: just another comment seeing that you are looking for builds to play.
    Unless you have a clear idea what build you want to play, i find it's often the best to 'tryout' builds through normal. You can speed through on /p1 and power level at certain areas, and by the end of Normal you'll have a base build for whatever you want to try out. It really doesn't take long to rush through normal, and firsthand experience of the build is infinitely better than what others can tell you about them.

    What is a 'fun' build? I can't tell you. You have to tell me what you think is fun first. =P

    Besides, /p8 through anything is more about skill and patience more than the actual build itself.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2016
  5. maareek

    maareek IncGamers Member

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    If you're looking to play p8 until Hell and then lower p settings, then a Zealot will do just fine. For a full p8 playthrough I personally, if I had only the two options, would want the Vengeance build, but I don't think my feelings there are typical and I assume for most the Zealot would still be preferred.

    I'd just like to point out that what people are trying to communicate to you about p8 Hell untwinked is this: it's an achievement. Not a "oh you logged in to our game, let's spam 10 pop-ups!" type achievement, but a real old-fashioned call your friends and show-off type of achievement. Making a very rough estimate from what I know about my characters and playstyle and previous playthroughs I would expect a full untwinked p8 playthrough of the game to take me about 50 hours. I'd imagine the typical amount for someone doing it without additional restrictions in softcore with a cookie-cutter style character at somewhere between 40-100 hours, depending on a variety of variables, and with expectations leaning towards the high-end and beyond. The purpose of the warnings and statements from others has been to make sure you understand what you want: if you want a serious challenge - replete with exasperation and frustration lying between you and eventual victory - then go ahead and enjoy, but we want to make sure that if you just want to play that way on a lark that you realize it's going to be actually difficult.

    All that said, if you want to do a full p8 untwinked playthrough just play whatever you want to play. Everything will suck, even the much lauded fishymancer will have serious issues, so it's much more important that you choose to play what you want to play because regardless of build the biggest obstacle to completion is player desire.

    In terms of specific advice: for untwinked with either you're probably going to be happy to have a point in Redemption, if only for the corpse removal. Charge will be eminently helpful to close in on a target or escape from a bad situation. Salvation is probably also a good one-point wonder, particularly for the Avenger (flash on Salvation against elemental archers, gloams, tainted, etc. to boost your survival until you can get in range).

    For the Avenger you'll want to dump a lot of points into: Vengeance, Conviction, Resist Fire/Lightning/Cold and Salvation ... which is too many points, especially when you add in required skills and any additional utility skills. This is a pretty dirty quick think of how I'd lay out the points, assuming a finishing level of 84:

    Code:
    Prayer:1
    Resist Fire:15
    Defiance:1
    Resist Cold:10
    Cleansing:1
    Resist Lightning:20
    Vigor:1
    Redemption:1
    Salvation:1
    
    Might:1
    Holy Fire:1
    Thorns:1
    Holy Freeze:1
    Sanctuary:1
    Conviction:15
    
    Sacrifice:1
    Smite:1
    Zeal:1
    Charge:1
    Vengeance:20
    I'll admit to not doing any actual math here, but the thought process is to stop Conviction at -100% to ensure any non-immune monster becomes negatively resistant then focus points on boosting elemental damage. It's possible that pumping Salvation is actually superior just because of how much more expected damage you would get from lightning damage compared to the others (I favored fire because cold immunes are almost never broken by Conviction and I think cold is actually the most common immunity in the game, though I may be getting too many "it's fire! no, it's not!" arguments mixed up in my head) but I aimed more for a balanced damage portfolio combined with the additional defensive benefits (each point in a Resist <Element> Aura gives .5% increased resistance to that element, so 20 points in Resist Lightning means your maximum possible resistance to lightning damage is 85% instead of the base 75%, which is a huge difference). Actual math could probably cipher out something a little more optimal, but I think that's very close to what I'd consider the most solid untwinked Avenger skillset.

    In terms of playstyle: find a big two-handed weapon, hide behind the merc and feed him potions like it's an office Christmas party and he's that person you'd got a crush on against melee damage or charge in and dispense swift (read: painfully slow) justice against ranged attackers.

    For the zealot: a frost zealot is the go-to untwinked melee Paladin build for a reason. You'll almost certainly need/want a Blessed Aim merc to help with your chance to hit. Making the Rhyme runeword in a paladin-only shield will help a ton. Skills are pretty straightforward: 20 in Sacrifice, Zeal, Holy Freeze and Resist Cold, 1 in Holy Shield, hoping for some +skills gear to buff it with. I'd still use the utility skills, so might have to steal a few points from Sacrifice, but should be fine. In terms of what weapon to look for: something fast. There are definitely good options among the uniques, but the nature of untwinked makes suggesting runewords more consistent, with Crescent Moon (presumably in a Phase Blade or Cryptic Sword) or Oath (if using the runeword mod) being strong options.

    As for scepters: Honor in a Divine Scepter makes for a pretty strong weapon, certainly capable of beating the game though far from ideal (what I'm saying is: it can do the job, but it's not far above the minimum requirements), but no item can drop with 5 sockets until Hell difficulty so you'd have to get a Divine Scepter with an item level of 26 or higher and then either use a Larzuk quest on it or try using the cube recipe to socket it (and risk not getting 5) to have one before Hell. None of the other accessible scepter options are really as good, so while you may use a Strength scepter in Normal or a King's Grace one in early Nightmare or something, I'd be surprised if a scepter were your end-game weapon.
     
  6. ducko

    ducko IncGamers Member

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    Thanks for your replies. As for the P8 part, I basically meant P8 through norm and NM, and I'll adjust accordingly in hell. No worries about it ;)

    Hmm so for untwinked play, Holy Freeze is better than Fana?
     
  7. maareek

    maareek IncGamers Member

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    Untwinked, Holy Freeze is pretty much strictly better, yes. For twinked play, with good gear, there's almost no reason other than just wanting to to play a Holy Freeze zealot, but without a specific set of gear the defensive properties of Holy Freeze are insanely strong.

    Holy Freeze slows down almost every monster in the game (which affects their attack speed as well as their movement) and adds a set amount of damage to your attacks (compared to fanatacism's percentage of your weapon) which means it makes up for having bad defenses and a bad weapon. To my knowledge the only monsters that are immune to the slow from Holy Freeze are Oblivion Knights and Frenzytaurs (I think only certain types of Frenzytaurs are immune, but I could be wrong on that), though the cold damage (both the pulse damage and the amount added to the weapon) are normal cold damage and are affected by the target's cold resistance. On that note I think I forgot above to suggest using Sanctuary on your Zealot ... you should have a point in Sanctuary on your Zealot, for dealing with any cold immune undead you run across.

    Basically, playing an untwinked Fanaticism zealot is either asking to have a bad time, asking for serious luck, or planning to do a bunch of running once you hit the wall until you can find some decent gear. A Holy Freeze zealot is way more forgiving, and can be finished with much worse gear.
     
  8. Gynli

    Gynli IncGamers Member

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    Just to put in my 2cents,

    I'd suggest holy fire for quick progression through normal and NM andy.
    You can then hire a holy freeze merc; and respect into fana zealot.
    like @maareek says, the difference between having holy freeze will immensely help with your survivability;
    i just think fana zealot with holy freeze merc will be a better combination than a holy freeze zealot with a might merc.
    I could be wrong though, as I don't play alot of paladins. xD
     
  9. maareek

    maareek IncGamers Member

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    Holy Freeze with Blessed Aim merc would be what I'd suggest for untwinked. The odds you'll need the AR boost are very high. I'd still rather have the damage boost from Holy Freeze most of the time, even if I didn't need the AR, because untwinked is pretty unlikely to have a weapon which will benefit from fanaticism's damage boost. Using Fanaticism and putting points in Blessed Aim as the character will boost your AR, but you're still probably doing less total damage than the Holy Freeze character is unless you get a good weapon and it's all of one type, instead of being spread between two elements like the Holy Freeze variation is.

    I'd stick with suggesting Holy Freeze as the build with the Blessed Aim merc, but switching to Fanaticism with a Holy Freeze merc is definitely doable if you get a good weapon. I think what I'm suggesting is the most likely to be the smoothest sailing the biggest portion of the time, but there are certainly many different paths to making a successful untwinked patriarch as a paladin, depending on what you find and how you want to play and what you find enjoyable, and specific finds can make it so switching to a fanatic zealot is just flat out more effective than a holy freeze one; untwinked play is by definition pretty maleable.

    @Gynli: I wouldn't do what you're suggesting in general, but that doesn't mean I think it's wrong. It's certainly a fine option. And the respec is a good call. I don't like respec and tend to forget it even exists, but holy fire will tear through things early on, that's for sure.
     
  10. Gynli

    Gynli IncGamers Member

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    @maareek Ah blessed aim! Thanks for pointing that out.
    I have such little experience with melee builds that I tend to forget about AR problems.
     
  11. Pyrotechnician

    Pyrotechnician IncGamers Site Pal

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    I know a ton of people have already given their opinions, but figured I'd throw a few more in there, I love paladins, 5 of my 20+ish guardians are paladins and a couple more near completion.

    Zealot vs. Vengeance, almost everyone will probably say Zealot. The big difference? Zeal is a multi target attack, the single target nature of vengeance wears on most people over time and takes a much different style of play, more to the point of having to draw out individual monsters at time more often to not get swarmed in some cases. In most zealot cases you can have a few monsters around you without too too much difficulty unless its a nasty pack.

    I'll kind of go through each of your options:

    Classic Vengeance paladin with conviction - Pros - Nothing is immune to you, you will always have at minimum 2 damage types that will hurt, and a high level conviction breaks immunities and makes defense a thing of the past, can make for some pretty big damage numbers. Running conviction also makes you immune to monsters that spawn with conviction as long as its over level 12 (thats the max other monsters can spawn with, not your merc though unfortunately). A commonly overlooked benefit that is big for untwinked characters. Cons - Weapon damage dependent, single target attack that can reach 8 fpa at best. No to minimal life leach, which can be rough for a melee build. Pair with holy freeze merc, your slow attack will benefit from having the monsters slowed, and your mercs cold damage will get a boost (secondary choice might merc if you want all out damage).

    Vengeance paladin with fanacticism - Not going to really touch this one since its an untwinked character, definately a less used build and unique in its own right, but is commonly used with big slow weapons that need the IAS boost, more than the ability to break immunities.

    The classic Fanac zealot - Pros - Can have a fast, high damage physical attack if you come across the right weapon in your travels. Life leach is effective and will probably be the thing that keeps you alive at times. Merc benefits from damage and speed boost. Cons - Weapon dependent, biggest drawback. Physcial immune monsters will give you pain, but they are limited outside of undead types so like maareek mentioned above, picking up sanctuary is not a bad idea. Otherwise not a bad choice. Pair with a might merc for more damage (secondary choice holy freeze to go more on the safe side)

    Holy Freeze Zealot - The most untwinked friendly. If you plan on having bad drop luck, this is probably your best bet. - Pros - Decent damage output, not weapon dependent, and slows most monsters around you (ironically doesn't slow some of the more dangerous ones though...). Cons - There really aren't many other than it being a single damage type, and Act 5 has a lot of cold immunes, you'll probably have to pick a backup skill although you could probably do a hybrid with holy shock without losing too much damage, or just let your merc kill them which could be painful. Pair with blessed aim merc, more damage from might probably sounds nice, but AR lacks on this one (secondary choice might I guess but I wouldn't based on the beforehand).

    Holy Shock - Still untwinked friendly but not as much. Pros - More damage output than Holy Freeze, you can reach decent numbers even untwinked, not weapon dependent, one of the best weapons for it is cresent moon runeword which the highest rune in it is an um which is pretty darn cheap and obtainable for untwinked play. Cons - Once again a single damage type, and you lose the slowing that comes with holy freeze. Will probably have to have a backup and Holy freeze would probably be your best choice here, or once again just let your merc do the work. Same as above, pair with blessed aim merc, as it suffers the same lack of AR as holy freeze does (secondary choice might).

    Holy Fire - Not going to touch this one, the damage is too low to be effective past normal mode, but will in fact make normal a breeze if you feel like burning a respec afterwards. Can only be made effective with some serious high end runewords.

    Gear things, I'm just going to second most of what maareek said. Paladins have little trouble with resistances due to their shields, do your best to find a two socket shield for rhyme early on, later on, at a minimum find a decent paladin base with mid to highish resistance on it. Rhyme is great and cheap, Santuary has better resistances, but is costlyish in terms of untwinked, spirit is good for skills and res though if you go with a more skill based build like the holy auras.

    Weapon wise, for the weapon damage based ones, you are going to have to hope for a nice drop, but your best bet is once again what maareek said, an oath runeword, it really isn't too too far out of reach with mal being the highest rune in it. For the skill based ones, the holy auras, you are looking more for fast base then high damage base, and look for +skills on other gear.
     
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  12. Quentin

    Quentin IncGamers Member

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    Hi, could you recommend a skill points distribution for untwinked HC Holy Freeze Zealot (Holy Shock as backup) and Holy Shock Zealot (Holy Freeze as backup)?

    These two builds sounds interesting to try
     
  13. necrolemming

    necrolemming IncGamers Member

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    There's not a whole lot of variation to be had there; the build needs 20 in each of Holy Shock, Holy Freeze, Resist Lightning, and Resist Cold and at least 1 in Zeal (might need a couple more hard points to get enough swings with Zeal, depending on how gearing goes).

    You'd probably want 1 in each of the defensive one point wonders and Holy Shield, too, which doesn't leave a whole lot of wiggle room left - you might have a handful of points by the end of a playthrough to dump into Salvation for extra synergy damage or Holy Shield.
     
  14. Nesjan

    Nesjan IncGamers Member

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    Paladins are my favorite and i have made my fair share of both. I would say Zealot is the better build. With a half decent weapon. Holy Shield, Zeal and Fanatacism maxed you can easily handle Nightmare P8 through Baal. As sayd by a few others the difficulty level changes dramatically going in to Hell. The way i play is the same as you SP completely untwinked. With all my builds i go to Nightmare Baal P8 till i hit lvl 80. Then i go into Hell normally, (trust me even on P1 it is hard to say the least). Once you complete Hell your equipment has a good chance of being greatly upgraded as Hell is where all the good runes and weapons are at! Then if you can complete Hell normally and find your "end game equipment" the challenge now is too up your players level, P4 really hard, P6 Extreme, P8 borderline impossible.

    The best weapons for a Zealot would be any of the 3 elite scepters, Demons Limb (which i have actually found once at Nightmare baal),
    with the 1.14 patch high level runes are easier to find now and there are multiple viable runewords.
    Azurewrath, lightsabre, Frostwind, Baranars, Horizon, Stone Crusher, Schaefers. But my personal favorite of all time would easily be Stormlash, it is very very rare, but it is worth farming until you find it. I have found 4 times once in the Pit Hell, twice at Mephisto and once at Diablo.

    Skills for Zealot. Max Zeal, Holy Shield, Fanaticism, then synergies Defiance and Sacrifice, thats just the way i do it.
     

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