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Avenger help

Discussion in 'Paladin' started by Banjotron, Oct 3, 2010.

  1. Banjotron

    Banjotron Diabloii.Net Member

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    Avenger help

    This is going to be one of those, "What am I doing wrong?" posts.

    To start with, this isn't the first time I've played this character. I made him two ladders ago in almost the exact same form, and he worked pretty well. A lot of my characters are novelty builds which lack the overkill to do well in large games, but they do hit the damage sweet spot where they can still kill fast in solo Hell difficulty games. This one was one of the slower killers, but he had a ton of MF.

    Basically, the build is a gris avenger. Attributes are typical. 108 str (to equip the full set using only the set's +str bonuses, leaving your offset options open), min dex for max block, and rest vit. My skill choices are also straightforward. I usually drop a single point into vengeance and holy shield, then start maxing all the resist auras.

    The gear is primarily the Griswold set. Before you shrug at that, I should probably explain why I loved this build. First of all, the set takes care of your resists nicely. Just pop 3 P Diamonds into the shield, and you have 85% resists in Hell diff (30 anya + 57 diamonds + 100 set). Second, you get a ton of helmet and torso gem slots. I usually ptopaz all of them. So you get 150 MF off the set. Last, avengers only really need +5 skills (to max out Conviction's -res), after which the benefits are minor, and the set grants +5.

    This leaves all of your other gear slots pretty much open to whatever you want. I just layered tons of MF gear. Mine had well over 300 ultimately without any charms aside from Gheed's.

    The weapon is a trickier item. It might seem like crap, but I'd actually say Gris is the second-best choice for an Avenger who uses a shield, damage wise. Vengeance ignores off-weapon ED, so you ideally want something as fast as possible while maintaining very high average _weapon_ damage. Grief on a very fast weapon becomes amazing. Gris is workable, though. It's very fast, and if you slot it up with Ohm's and are using War Travs, it deals about 258 average weapon damage (assuming average ED). So after all is said and done, factoring in hell immunities and resists, you're probably dealing about 4K damage per hit on essentially every mob.

    Anyhow, it worked. I was one or two-shotting most stuff in Hell while solo, and I hit quite often since conviction has the side benefit of a massive defense debuff (-92% at lvl 25).

    That was then. Right now I'm getting raped. This is still the baby version of this char, but I want to either figure out the problem or reroll before I get further.

    He's lvl 73, and once I stepped into Hell difficulty, the game became a nightmare. I haven't geared him yet, so he only has 903 health, 618 defense, and 63% block. I literally can't do anything solo, though. I was just in maggot lair. I got sandwiched by two normal scarabs, and they killed me in about five seconds (uncursed). And this is an average experience. Even once I'm done gearing him and leveling him a bit more, he's only going to have 1350 HP. So if I don't figure it out now, he will never be workable.

    Am I doing something wrong? Did they make the game harder or something? I'm honestly at a loss. I've MF'ed in Hell across many ladders. I even used to make a point of trying to solo level through Hell where possible instead of getting rushed. I don't think I've ever hit a brick wall this bad.
     
  2. NoisemakerArrow

    NoisemakerArrow Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Avenger help

    If he's not wearing any gear, of course he'll die easily.
     
  3. Banjotron

    Banjotron Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Avenger help

    Yeah. You're right, honestly.

    I think the big difference was that I'm used to starting ladders as a bowazon. I've started with and used bowazons as my primary char for five ladders so far, so I'd like to think I've gotten decent at playing them at any gear level. When I play avengers, though, I usually have all their gear prepped ahead of time.

    As a bowazon, I can play through all of Hell more or less naked (aside from a good bow) and not really have a problem. Once you learn how, you can even deal with souls without any LR. Valk is absurdly tough if pumped, and decoy eventually costs next to nothing and can have decent HP itself.

    I eventually just broke down and put my paladin aside for a bit. Now I'm playing as a zon. Even ungeared, she's easily soloing her way through Hell diff.

    I think I just forgot how much of a nightmare life is for ungeared melee in Hell diff. Last time I played melee as my primary char was back at original D2 launch. :p
     
  4. Asmodeous

    Asmodeous Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Avenger help

    Crumbs. Where do I start?

    1). 63% shield block. 66% = 2 out of 3. 75% = 3 out of 4. It might only be 12% difference. But it means less hits getting thru. Vengeance is an interuptable attack. You pally is getting hit easily, his attack gets disrupted, low life, and dies.

    2). Slow attack. Gris set alone will only achieve a 10 frame attack speed. You haven't mentioned it but I assume you have 20% ias somewhere for 9 frames. Personally I prefer 8 frames myself but 9 frames is easily achieved so its a must imho.

    3). 618 defense? you haven't equipped griswolds set yet? and your wondering why your character is dying in hell diff? :whistling:

    4). Life leech. You need it. I run 23% life leech on mine. Probably overkill but imho you need at least 15% to be viable in hell. Chance to cast life tap is next to worthless with a slow attack as vengeance but, Draculs does have life leech as well so it is a good glove, just not for the life tap.

    5). Perfect topaz's and diamonds? Erm, ok if you prefer. But you should realise that while vengeance "ignores" off weapon ED damage, it does not ignore added damage such as jewels of carnage, vermillion, bliss, joyfullness etc. These work just like war travellers. You can get jewels that have two attributes that increase both max, min or both damages. I've seen (and own) jewels up to +29 max, +17 min and 9-15 damage. You can also get jewels with damage and other useful attributes, +9 to min damage or fervor for example. Oh, and you can get charms that add damage too. Works the same.
    the 8 sockets in the rest of the set is wasted imho with topazes. Use the back pack for the resistances and magic find if you have to. Socketing the set with 4 x 10 min and 4 x 15 max jewels will give you an extra 40-60 damage so your 258 average damage caddy just became a 308 average damage caddy. If you manage to rustle up 4 x 17 min and 4 x 29 max damage jewels, look out world! :thumbup:

    6). 4 kay damage on every hit? Try maxxing out vengeance. The single point vengeance, rest in synergies strategy only works in normal difficulty with low damage weapons. With quad ohmed caddy you can run level 30 odd vengeance with 6-7% mana leech. Not a huge ask. An gris avenger should be seeing 4-6 kay damage in the LCS before might merc and more with a high end set up like quad ohms in the weapon as well as battle.net charms like torch and anni.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2010
  5. BewareOfLag

    BewareOfLag Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Avenger help

    not to hijack a thread, but i always wanted to try an avenger, even though i am positive they arent too hell viable. swarm of monsters + can only attack 1 at a time = big problems. my question was i remember reading a stat somewhere where 1 pt vengeance and maxing all the resist synergies did as much or more damage than maxing vengeance and putting as much as you can into the resist synergies. Also, ramping up vengeance is mana intensive, and personally since i never have good gear (never found better than a Gul), trying to get good mana leech, good life leech, etc. becomes tough. Assuming maxing vengeance is a significant damage improvement, how do you feed the mana monster?


     
  6. hubb

    hubb Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Avenger help

    Honestly, with a bit of leech, insight and a good weapon vengeance's mana cost is no problem. 1 pt vengeance and boosting synergies is a good idea while leveling up, but end-game it's not nearly as bad as people make it out to be.

    That's being said, you only gain 152% elemental damage and 190% AR if you max vengeance instead of a synergy, while your mana cost almost doubles (roughly from 5 to 10). I prefer maxing vengeance but you aren't giving a lot up by choosing not to.

    They are hell viable, but not fun without a nice weapon. Oath in a [-10] base like a War Spike is sort-of cheap. The one-target attack is tiring, but there's always 1 pt zeal for the flayers.
     
  7. NoisemakerArrow

    NoisemakerArrow Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Avenger help

    I prefer mana leech + Reaper's Toll on merc.
     
  8. Asmodeous

    Asmodeous Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Avenger help

    Key to a successful avenger is to do a lot of damage with that one attack at a time. If you can kill most monsters with 1-2 hits, then it isn't much of a problem.

    Love to know where that "stat" is so it can be erased. Each point in Vengeance gives 6% damage. Each point in a synergy gives 3.33%. (10% divided by a third) I can't see how 3.33% is greater than 6%.

    Most of this "fallacy" about vengeance being mana hungry comes from players who maxxed out vengeance early with a normal or exceptional quality weapon and found the mana cost of high level vengeance too high. Mana steal is based on weapon damage plus strength plus and aura, off weapon damage etc.
    The key is to build up vengeance last so that the high mana cost can be run by a big damage elite weapon and not a normal or exceptional weapon. Imho, you one point your required skills to level 30, then spend 20-30 points in the synergies and other sundry skills. Then build conviction to level 25 (including items) and then, max out vengeance. When you max out vengeance, then all final points go on the synergies. Doing it this way, by the time you build Vengeance up to 10 mana per hit (level 25 or so), your swinging a 200+ average damage weapon with 150 odd strength and probably a might merc packing level 16+ might aura which gives plenty of physical weapon damage for mana leech to work with.

    Bottom line is you need less mana leech in hell difficulty, around 8% or so. My avenger runs 14% mana leech from cresent moon and fills the mana ball from empty in three hits. Not much of a mana monster.



     

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