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ATTENTION - Read here if you want your voice heard - Rules Opinions Sought

Discussion in 'US East Standard - Ladder' started by spiffymcbang, Jun 24, 2010.

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  1. spiffymcbang

    spiffymcbang D3 Trade Moderator<br> America, USEast (D2)<br> Ne

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    ATTENTION - Read here if you want your voice heard - Rules Opinions Sought

    Ok so it might be time once again, with new folks here, to review the current rules.

    Please post your constructive critism of the rules here. What do you like? What do you dislike? What would you change if you could? That type of thing.

    We make no promises that the current rules will change but this is the time to voice your opinions.

    Keep in mind that there are many opinions here and that all posts should be civil and within the rules of no flaming.

    Last time we tried this I felt there was very little feed back, but now with a bunch of new guys maybe there will be more interest.

    Keep in mind there will be some things that won't change. For example there will still be a DNT list, just what is on it may change.

    Thank you for your time.
    spiffymcbang
     
  2. kascca

    kascca IncGamers Member

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    Re: ATTENTION - Read here if you want your voice heard - Rules Opinions Sought

    I'd like to see the bumping rule adjusted for auctions only. Listing a 24hr auction creates great difficulty with the bumping rule, especially as it gets down to the wire and your auction has more than likely disappeared off the front page. I think 1 free bump in the case of auctions would be fair although I am unsure as to the extra work load it would put on the mods.

    On a side note I think the rules regarding offering things in two places at once is fair, especially if in auction format or if there is an offer that has already been accepted.
     
  3. reddude

    reddude IncGamers Member

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    Re: ATTENTION - Read here if you want your voice heard - Rules Opinions Sought

    I agree with this, which is what I saw a few people had a problem with in a thread that was recently closed. There is nothing more annoying then making an offer, only to find that the item has been traded off somewhere else.

    Overall, I'm happy with the rules of this site. Everything makes sense, and threads arn't being made so fast that you need to bump more then once a day.


     
  4. GoTarO

    GoTarO IncGamers Member

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    Re: ATTENTION - Read here if you want your voice heard - Rules Opinions Sought

    I think the goal of the rules needs to be explicitly stated. That will help everyone understand how a rule fits in with a goal.

    Trying to keep items out that were obtained through illegitimate means (botting, hacking, duping, etc), while does sound appealing, is just not possible to achieve. If that was a true goal, trading with random people in-game should also be banned, because the origin of their items can't be verified. IMO, direct botting happens on these forums fairly often anyway, especially judging by the contents and size of some of the FT lists. That said, I don't personally believe it even matters, but I've become pretty disinterested in D2 recently, so I questioned what my goal really was for playing in the first place.. What is your goal? To gear out a character? Then what? PvP? Is it really worth my time to care if an item I bought was botted? :p (I don't think it really affects the economy, at least not when there is no out-of-game currency.)

    As far as DNT items, I don't understand why it's unacceptable to sell socket quests or hellforge drops. Then the rules immediately state that other services, such as rushing? LEVELING?! are allowed. Really? Allowing leveling services seems pretty out-of-character, and I would love to buy socket quests. What is the justification behind that one?

    These rules, as I brought up in a different thread, don't belong here (IMO):
    • Do not offer items elsewhere at the same time as you're offering them here and/or Marketplace. That also means you don't bring offers from other places here. If you offer items elsewhere at the same time and you have got offers at the time it's discovered, you will be banned for 3 days. If there haven't been offers so far, your thread just gets closed.
    • Please give your items a fair chance to be traded. If you are starting a thread, you have to wait for at least 12 hours before retracting an item from your list. Of course, you can decline any offer during these 12 hours, but your items are considered as still being offered, so you cannot offer them elsewhere during that time.
    I'm not sure the point of the first rule, but being outbid in another location is no different than being the highest bidder and simply having your offer declined. For that reason, it doesn't actually provide any protection for buyers, which brings its existence into question.
    For the next rule, the point, as stated, was to give the community a fair chance to buy an item before the seller retracted the offer. However, since there is no difference between retracting immediately and waiting 12 hours before declining all offers and retracting, the rule accomplishes nothing and only serves as an arbitrary and unfair reason to ban someone.

    I think it is up to the seller if he wants to risk offering an item with a BIN and then selling it elsewhere, only to find that someone bought it here. If he can't quickly come up with a replacement, there's his ban. That rule covered the only buyer protection that currently exists. There is no real protection from purchasing botted, hacked, duped items (since no one really knows), OR from bidding on an item that was already sold elsewhere (since they can just pretend they have it and are declining the offer).

    My only request for an addition would be to make it the responsibility of the seller to very actively respond in his topic and explicitly state when he is no longer actively responding. As it is now, I wind up making mules before I even get responses, just because I would rather not wait 24 hours for a response and then 24 more for completion of the trade.

    Sorry for the book, but maybe that will make up for the lack of total responses :). By the way, I found this thread TOTALLY by chance, so I imagine most people aren't going to see it either.

    Edit: The difference between what I said about the BIN and a bid is that if someone buys an item with a BIN, that is the equivalent of the seller agreeing to the deal, even before he/she responds.

    Also, my opinion is that bots and botting should be allowed (or at least condoned). I think sellers should be required to declare whether they bot or not, so it's up to the buyer to avoid them if it's against their philosophy. Dupes and hacks are another story, since they really do ruin the economy (by reducing the usefulness/attractiveness of legit items). Like I already said, bots really only ruin the economy of d2jsp (which is a good thing, right?).
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2010
  5. dhopisthename

    dhopisthename IncGamers Member

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    Re: ATTENTION - Read here if you want your voice heard - Rules Opinions Sought

    being new here I must say that I like all of the rules. the no flaming, non lame pc talk, and good clean talking is really a welcome change. as for the person above about trading somewhere else I think this rule makes alot of sense because how can I try to outbid someone elses bid if I can't even see what it was. also, I don't what he means by slow repsonses on trades maybe I have just gotten lucky but most of the time my trades are done within a day and to expect faster is unrealistic most people don't live on this sight 24/7 waiting for a response. on a side note I like the auction idea.
     
  6. GoTarO

    GoTarO IncGamers Member

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    Re: ATTENTION - Read here if you want your voice heard - Rules Opinions Sought

    @dhopisthename
    All I was saying was that the rules didn't accomplish their goals. I can offer my items anywhere else, such as -edit'd out-, immediately find a buyer for my item there, wait 12 hours and decline any offers here. The rule is there, but all it takes is for someone to say "I'd rather keep my item," and you still don't get it. Basically, the only time anyone gets banned is if they are too stupid to pretend like they followed the rules. I believe it is better to have rules that you enforce and discourage certain behaviors than it is to have rules you can't enforce.

    edit by gorash: plz do not use the other site names here.
     
  7. kascca

    kascca IncGamers Member

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    Re: ATTENTION - Read here if you want your voice heard - Rules Opinions Sought

    Absolutely not IMO. While the rule might not be practically enforceable, it endeavours to maintain a standard of conduct on these forums which others do not. Botters ruin the economy for everyone and their actions should not be condoned on these forums. As for d2jsp, the site was founded by the very botters you claim are now ruining their economy. In fact I would hazard a guess that over 50% of regular jsp users are probably botters, and a good percentage of them are probably dupers as well.


     
  8. GoTarO

    GoTarO IncGamers Member

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    Re: ATTENTION - Read here if you want your voice heard - Rules Opinions Sought

    How does botting ruin this economy? Botting floods d2jsp's economy with items, which causes prices to plummet. Even if there is a flood of items on here, the items are still worth exactly what they always have been. Again, I would argue that more than a few of the sellers on here probably bot, so unless the economy is in shambles currently, botting didn't ruin it. All that's happening now is no one is acknowledging what is really going on (or they are delusional and truly believe it is not). It's possible I'm the one who is mistaken, but that's the impression I have after spending a little time on here.
     
  9. spiffymcbang

    spiffymcbang D3 Trade Moderator<br> America, USEast (D2)<br> Ne

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    Re: ATTENTION - Read here if you want your voice heard - Rules Opinions Sought

    ok you have made your point.
    it is unlikely the stance on botting will change even though we know there are some who do it. I just have not caught them at it. When I do they get banned. I caught one last week.
    just state your opinion. let others state there opinions and leave it at that. This is not the place to try to convince others you are right. Only looking for opinions.
     
  10. GoTarO

    GoTarO IncGamers Member

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    Re: ATTENTION - Read here if you want your voice heard - Rules Opinions Sought

    Okay, fine.. :p It's almost impulsive that I respond lol. I can't help myself :(. I'm trying really hard to avoid saying that knowing of the botters' existence .. noo.. stop.. isn't the reason.. ahhhhhhhh!
     
  11. Woodman

    Woodman IncGamers Member

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    Re: ATTENTION - Read here if you want your voice heard - Rules Opinions Sought

    These people have already shown they're willing to break rules and go the extra mile to have an unfair advantage in the game. They're probably willing to do the same thing here too, so banning them just means they come back here and do the same thing with another account, or go to another forum. It doesn't cost much more than the bots and extra CD keys they already use, to change ISP's, or get a VPN. Catching them occasionally doesn't really stop them anymore than when Blizzard bans them, but it does make casual cheaters who would only do it if they are guaranteed not to get punished think twice.

    I think the DNT list and the rules for it are fine. I would like it to be easier to read though. Going through lists of trade slang names, random acronyms, and numbers trying to make sure some item you found isn't on the list is onerous. I find myself having to check through it 5-6 times just to make sure I didn't miss some +4 or something. Having the full name of the item on the list, like "X Charm of X", or "Griffon's Eye" instead of "griffons", would make it easier to search, especially for casual or inexperienced traders.

    This is not a good idea. The traders should be courteous enough to tell people when they are no longer checking their list, but I haven't seen many dead threads crowding the first few pages. Seems like a small/non issue to me. Imposing time limits and standards for people to be on here checking their posts is very MMO-ish.
     
  12. tradinfool

    tradinfool USEast Trade Moderator

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    Re: ATTENTION - Read here if you want your voice heard - Rules Opinions Sought

    Rule change I would like to see:
    Allow the trading of socket quests - done in the manner the same as a mule trade, you place the item to be socketed on the mule, the person sockets it, sends a PM indicating the item is now socketed, the payment is made, trade completed. This is no more likely to be scammed than any other trade.

    BUMPING RULE: There is no need for a rule change but people don't seem to understand that it is acceptable to post in your own thread in less than 24 hours, if you are responding to an offer. You just can't do back to back posts, or respond to someone else's spam in less than the 24 hours.

    OT:
    If you think botting is not hacking then this site is not for you. There are plenty of sites that do allow it, trade there.

    This site is for people that have real lives therefore 24 hours for trades is an acceptable speed for them to be completed, if you want something faster, there are other sites for that too.
     
  13. GoTarO

    GoTarO IncGamers Member

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    Re: ATTENTION - Read here if you want your voice heard - Rules Opinions Sought

    Saying "this site is not for you," is not a true statement. It's an opinion, and this thread would do a lot better without people being so judgmental. This topic was created in light of newcomers, so it's possible the current majority does not feel the same as the old one did.

    Personally, I just would be curious to see how many of those FT lists turn out to be from botters, and then I would be curious to see how the people who historically held a stance against bots would THEN feel when they realize they had been relying on bots the whole time.

    Also, if it turned out any changes were made based on my vote, I would be willing to proofread and organize the rules. I don't know how many people actually read them, but they could use some TLC. (That's just my offer to contribute to the community! :))
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2010
  14. Naibchris

    Naibchris IncGamers Member

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    Re: ATTENTION - Read here if you want your voice heard - Rules Opinions Sought

    I would like to see the bump rule changed for auctions, as well as socket quests.

    I would also like the ability to delete posts, though that may be beyond the scope of this thread.

    As a clarification: Are we allowed to trade something on the list in game after 12 hours?
     
  15. spiffymcbang

    spiffymcbang D3 Trade Moderator<br> America, USEast (D2)<br> Ne

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    Re: ATTENTION - Read here if you want your voice heard - Rules Opinions Sought

    if you list something FT you may trade it elsewhere after 12 hours provided you retract it first. You may not trade it first then retract it.

    Actually this is a true statement if you feel you must bot to use this site. The stance on botting will not change just like using other hacks and cheats will not change. That is not a USeast rule that might be changed. That is a forum wide rule and one of our principles. NO hacks, cheats, ect.....

    So no more talk of botting being allowed. Not going to happen. I catch you I ban you. I understand your frustration with it, and I would guess there are 7-10 botters that trade regularly and I am pretty sure who they are. I just need proof.



     
  16. squidcatchr

    squidcatchr IncGamers Member

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    Re: ATTENTION - Read here if you want your voice heard - Rules Opinions Sought

    Heya! I've been trying to think of constructive things to add, but honestly I think things are run pretty well. It takes some getting used to but I appreciate the strict, unbiased rules. I do agree with the ideas put forth by others (trading for socket quest-- though what kind of price that would run I'd be curious to; and the ability to bump auctions say every 12 hours). If I think of something else I'll mention it, but in the meantime, kudos! I truly enjoy the community for the most part, and I like that we aspire to high standards.
     
  17. Furyotic

    Furyotic IncGamers Member

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    Re: ATTENTION - Read here if you want your voice heard - Rules Opinions Sought

    1. I don't approve of some of the items on the "do not trade list", I could see how it would be useful during last season since everything was highly duped and went poof. This season though there has been no proof of duping/bugged or poofing items that I have seen. I feel the dnt list encourages players to buy perfect items from diablo item sites since they cannot be obtained from this forum.

    2. The "do not post elsewhere rule" although I see how this can avoid some confusion, although on the other hand I feel the community would grow if this was removed. The word about diablo inc would be able to spread and we would get more traders. Also its more fairer to the seller to be able to sell their items at the highest price they can. If the seller edits his/her post accordingly and gives a fair chance for the buyer to outbid I don't see the harm.

    3. Bumping rule should be lowered to say 12hours, I think it would keep the forum more livelier instead of seeing the same threads at the top for a long period of time.

    Forgot to add I think people should be able to offer their socket quests for trade, it will help the people starting out make a quick buck and give people with lots of items a socket so they don't have to spend time rushing mules for the quest. It would be nice to have a trusting person to socket your item instead of taking the risk of letting some random person on bnet do it.

    Also the rules thread should be more visible in bold and at the top of the page. Should be like ("THE RULES" <- READ THIS IF YOU DONT WANT TO BE BANNED) or something like that, since I see a lot of newcomers being banned because they didn't read the rules. On an indirectly rated topic I think the help thread should have more presence also, it seems a lot of urgent help is being missed since the thread isn't very visible also.

    Generally speaking I could live with the current rules although improvement is never a bad thing.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2010
  18. Woodman

    Woodman IncGamers Member

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    Re: ATTENTION - Read here if you want your voice heard - Rules Opinions Sought

    I thought the same thing when I saw some of the ridiculous lists people have, but when I actually got back to playing, I realized it's not that hard to get long lists of good stuff. 200-300MF, and a few hours a day will yield some great long term results.

    The only thing I have serious doubts about are runes. Everyone seems to get their runes by trading, so who finds them in the first place? That fact that anything higher than Ist isn't hoarded like cans of beans after the apocalypse, indicates to me that a good number must originate from hardcore botters, or dupers.

    Trading for sockets/imbues would be nice. If nothing else, it gives those people with the worst of the worst luck something to do to gain some currency.
     
  19. gorash

    gorash IncGamers Member

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    Re: ATTENTION - Read here if you want your voice heard - Rules Opinions Sought

    1) in past seasons there have been many unperm'd bases which led to the DNT list. We will likely keep jewels and such up but sockettables we will discuss about.

    2) This was placed to save time, say someone offered for a item and the OT traded it, it will have wasted the person who offer'd time as he would have to search elsewhere. This will confuse too much so i believe this will stay.

    3) We will see about the 12 hour rule, same goes with socket quests.



     
  20. gvilleacuraman

    gvilleacuraman IncGamers Member

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    Re: ATTENTION - Read here if you want your voice heard - Rules Opinions Sought

    sorry to be late to the party, been out of town. Some thoughts though:

    the rule on bumping should be changed, just for the fact that I have the habit of not checking threads past the first page, and when there's lots of action going on somedays, I can update my thread and nobody sees.

    te socket quest thing should be changed as well. I was offering these until spiff gave me a warning and I realized it was against the rules. Aside from what others have stated, this is a surefire way to get some wealth depending on how much wrench time you're willing to put in, much the same with rushing/leveling.

    the offering away from the forums at the sametime as elsewhere rule should not be changed. I don't want to go against invisible bidders, and the way c/o gets thrown up these days, items run awhile. most people will probably get what they are looking for here, despite the outcry thus far. It's just a matter of how many people can see the item, but barring a few niche items I don't see anybody being unhappy with some of the trades they make here.

    lastly, the DNT list should be reviewed until there is cause for concern. this is my first ladder reset, and I'm sure the "dupes/poffables are no more" line has been used before, but until there is cause for alarm, an epic small charm/socketable/roll on unique should be allowed. Sometimes I find something awesome and I'm just not going to use it, but I might have to sit on it, or worse, use it for a meh reason because I can't trade it? I would rather put it towards something I need and give it to somebody who can use it. Not saying I got a bunch of these items waiting in the wings, just that if it happened it would suck. Items that can't possibly exist should still remained banned though.

    on a final note, I do all my own MFing, mostly on p1. I don't really care if someone does otherwise, either way, as long as items don't start poofing. I've never spent a penny on anything in this game beyond the initial purchase, and if somebody did, I feel sorry for them.
     
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