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ATMA & cheating as far as Blizzard is concerned

Discussion in 'Diablo 2 Community Forum' started by Freemason, May 6, 2005.

  1. Freemason

    Freemason Banned

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    ATMA & cheating as far as Blizzard is concerned

    I admit it, I'm a cheater. I've been using ATMA to "make" items.

    What I want to know is this one of the cheats Blizzard is looking for on open battle.net? I suspect it is. The only reason I'm asking is I almost never play online, but on the off chance that I would, I don't want to be using stuff Blizzard says are dupes.

    Since I play in SP 99.99% of the time I'm not changing the balance by cheating. However I do want to be legit were I to play online.
     
  2. slayer of fools

    slayer of fools IncGamers Member

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    I don't believe that open bnet does any type of scanning for "third party" program type items.

    If in fact you do play "legit" on open bnet you will be the exception rather than the rule. Good Luck!!!!!

    (This is the reason that I do not like playing anywhere near open bnet)

    Slayer
     
  3. Gorny

    Gorny Banned

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    What you do on your comp is your own buisness, and I dont believe that blizzard cares.
     
  4. Freemason

    Freemason Banned

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    What I'm getting at is, will Blizzard get torqued off if I show up on open battle.net with a bunch of identical items I've imported using ATMA? Such as a bunch of +whatever charms?
     
  5. kernelpops

    kernelpops IncGamers Member

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    um no probably not, a friends son showed me some of the items he has on open, and they are hacked to no end. +300 to fire ball, Defense of 56,000 and so on. If you are only making regular rune word items, you still don't stand a chance.
     
  6. mhl12

    mhl12 IncGamers Member

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    open is hacked beyond blizzard's control. Not only are ppl's items hacked but their chars are too.

    Last year when i decided to check what open was like, i joined a dueling game and there was this "invisible" druid. I mean it literally and no one could see him. He just kept on summoning wolfs to taunt ppl.

    So a long story short: i would NOT recommend open bnet unless you want to be one of those ppl who dont want to play fairly.
     
  7. Twoflower

    Twoflower Banned

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    well, fair... cheater vs another cheater, that s fair again, isnt it ? :p
     
  8. mhl12

    mhl12 IncGamers Member

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    not necessarily b/c there are different extremes of cheating. (For example, one char is hacked way more than the other.) The game comes with a certain set of boundaries that makes all pvp fair and each char has a good chance of winning depending on the build and skill. Hacks destroy that boundary and opens up many many different possibilities that makes the game unfair to many chars.
     
  9. TheJarulf

    TheJarulf Banned

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    Yes, that is why they didn't like for example bnetd, right?

    By the way, I don't think there is any difference in regard to Blizzards "rules" for realm play or open, if you read their EULA and ToS (which people here usually like to take down to the letter) the rules are the same, no third party programs at all for example.
     
  10. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    There still is a line to draw somewhere. For example, browsing the installation directory with the Explorer or whatever can be considered applying third party software. Blizzard may write anything in their license agreement, but if it violates the law, the relevant passage is null and void, even if you accepted it.

    Using bnetd for public access is certainly a violation of the license agreement, but using it in private isn't if that software itself isn't illegal (e.g. if parts of it are pirated).

    I consider the save files on my computer my property, the result of my "work", no matter what Blizzard says about it in the license agreement. I'm quite sure that it's perfectly legal if I hack or copy them, as long as I don't use them together with open bnet, for example. It's also perfectly OK for these forums to forbid trading these hacked items here.
     
  11. TheJarulf

    TheJarulf Banned

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    I was only commenting on what appears to be Blizzard's official stance and the only way to find that is to look at their EULA and ToS which does not make any difference between open and realm play. If you read it strict, it talks about any third party program and so on. So technically, you could be wrong according to them for using even programs that comes with Windows itself. I did not make any judgement on the validity or legalness of those documents of Blizzard, I would say it varies with country. My personal opinion is with what you say though :)

    As for bnetd, Blizzard did NOT go for users who connected to bnetd servers, they went for the ones who made the program itself. One can both make and run such programs without ever having to agree to any contract with Blizzard really. On top of that, in many countries the type of reverse engineering they made is specifically allowed by law and can't be dissalowed through contract, meaning those parts of the EULA would be void.

    As for using your game to connect to such third party servers, I really can't tell for sure, in part since that aspect of law is not something I am that familiar with. I could think that in many countries such a clause would definately be considered "unfair" (or whatever the terminology is) and thus not allowed. Imagine if you went to Mercedes to by some stuff for use in your car (a Mercedes) only to find that Mercedes now forbids you from using it in any other car, like your wifes BMW! For some reason, when it compes to software, people seem to accept everything and anything the software makers say and do and think it is perfectly OK.
     
  12. SwampBox

    SwampBox IncGamers Member

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    on open bnet I was lvl 50 (totally legit) this was my first char. and I messed it up alot, i didnt really know much about hacks and stuff, some guy hacked my char to lvl 9... it sucked... then some guy felt bad and hacked me up to lvl 99 and gave me body armor of like 10,000 with like 70+ to all skills... open bnet is so messed up lol
     
  13. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    It doesn't depend on where the third party software comes from, it depends on what you do with it. If you use an operating system tool e.g. to make a copy of the game and send it to somebody else by the OS's email program, it's illegal, but if you make backups of certain files, it isn't.

    If you run software, you have to make sure that you don't violate any law or that somebody else takes responsibility for that, so that's not an excuse to run bnetd in public. Not knowing is no reason not to get punished by the law. Connecting to third party bnet servers might not violate the law, but running one is something different.

    A car is something physical which you are the owner of, but you aren't the owner of the intellectual property it contains. That means you can use BMW parts to repair it, but you aren't allowed to make copies of genuine Mercedes parts.
     
  14. TheJarulf

    TheJarulf Banned

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    I don't think I ever said it depends on were the program comes from, on the contrary. Perhaps I was unclear, I agree with the above though.


    Well, running bnetd is most likely not illegal in almost any country I would say. (I include copyright infringement in "ilegal). Can you tell what specific law that would be (perhaps your country has a specific law saying some type of programs are not legal, I can't tell.

    I would actually say that possibly it could be more illegal in some countries to actually connect to the bnetd server sice if a country is die hard on EULAs, it would in the case of Blizzard forbid such connection, while not have any impact on people writing a server themselves (depending on how they did so). As I said, in many countries it would be completely legal to do exactly what they did though.



    Actually, one can make copies of Mercedes parts (you can't call the genuin of course) unless there would be some patent forbiding you. Most people tend to not buy genuine parts since they are more expensive.

    As for you "intellectual property" part, please tell what you refer to here. Is it patents? Seems so for the car parts. Or do you refer to the software still were copyright would be it? Two quite different things.

    If we stick to copyright, i think you have it confused or missunderstood. What do you mean by "owner of intellectual property"?? Do you mean the holder (or owner) of the copyright itself? Of course one is normally not. Or do you mean the owner of individual (physical!!) copies of the work? In that case you arw wrong since I, and others are the owners of quite many such works (of intellectual property). Just a quick glance at my bookshelfs indicate I own hundrads if not more books (yet don't own the copyright to almost any). Similary, I own quite a bunch of copies of various computer software, still not holding the copyright to most of them.

    You seem to confuse ownership (or holding) the copyright to a work and owning individual, material and physical, copies of a work. It is two very different things and one does not imply the other. The work itself is the immaterial thing that the copyright holder has certain exclusive rights to, this is called the copyright you can probably say "own the copyright" although I would say "hold/have/whatever the copyright is better since it only gives you a few exclusive rights, not the total "ownership" one usually mean by "owning". In addition it is for a non physical thing.

    That work can then be fixated into a physical form and copy, this is a material object and basically all ownership and other laws/properties in relation to other physical objects apply. The ownership of individual copies is typically at first the copyright holder since mostly he is the one that can create such new copies. He can then sell those physical copies (the copyright is of course not sold with it) and then ceases to be the owner of the copy and someone else turns owenr (just as with cars or whatever).

    See for exmaple the US copyight law for this, the definition part deals for example quite a bit with this and talks about such material copies or objects:

    http://www.copyright.gov/title17/

    Click on "chapter one" and then on section 101 for the definitions. Under copies it clearly states that:

    "?Copies? are material objects, other than phonorecords, in which a work is fixed...."

    It basically says the same later for phonerecords.

    So yes, I and others are indeed the owner of intellectual property, although we usually do not hold the copyright to it. Still, copyright deals only with the few (almost) exclusive rights such as making new copies, public performance and distribution. Note that it is still allowed to make some types of copies (excatly which depends on country). For example it is specifically allowed to make such copies needed to run a program you have bought (for US law, see paragraph 117 of the same chapter one as above).

    No were in the copyright law does it say for example that someone is not allowed to run a server such as bnetd. Actually, most countries see such competition and interoperability between different computer programs as so important so that they make it legal to do such reverse engineering as the creators of bnetd did. The bnetd case is in part about if a EULA can superceed that provisiono of the law forbidding it. Many other countries, including most Europeans I would say since it comes from a EU directive, has specifically forbid such clauses in contracts that forbid such reverse engineering since it is considered important for people to be able to do so.
     
  15. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    I guess we are of the same opinion regarding 90% of this issue. I'm not a lawyer, so I'm just applying common sense, so I might be wrong in some cases. I might also have problems to express myself 100% clearly because English isn't my native language. In particular, things might be handled differently in different countries.

    With "genuine" I meant anything Mercedes claims to be developed and produced by themself. In general it means anything that has the Mercedes trademark on it, be it a patented item or just (I made this up) the fly swatter coming for free with any Mercedes. There is a difference between patents and copyrights, of course. The name bnetd might already be an abuse of the Battlenet trademark.

    Regarding copyrights, I'm not sure about details of bnet and bnetd. Bnetd itself might be considered illegal because it might have involved reverse-engineering and/or using pirated parts of bnet code, i.e. abusing Blizzard's intellectual property. No matter what can be proven or how the legal situation is, as long as the bnetd servers help Blizzard to make money (i.e. more people will buy the game), they might allow it under reserve or tolerate it, but if it makes people buy less WoW games, for example, they will see them as compatition and fight them with whatever means are possible and necessary.
     
  16. TheJarulf

    TheJarulf Banned

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    Welcome to the club, me neither. Especially the correct law terms can be
    problematic since I have mostly dealt with it in Swedish, never English. And yes, often one DO agree more than one think, one problem is the use of good language. That is why I often try to be carefull using as correct terminology as possible and try to make others be too, otherwsie one do end up missunderstanding and not realising what the other is saying.


    True, You can't stamp Mercedes on your parts if you are not Mercedes. For the bnetd case, I don't think that actually IS the case. I think (although I have to go back to the documents on the case) that the trademark part was actually droped. Trademarks are different from copyrights in that you are often allowed to use the name (trademarks is always names and similar things) as long as long as it is clear for the customer that you are not trying to pretend to be someone else (very simplified). It is meant to aid consumers and others to know who you deal with really. Hence, one can for example use "Blizzard" talking about their games or on a website even if it is a trademark as long as you for example doesn't try to make it look like your are Blizzard yourself and so on.

    I must admit that I am very shaky on US trademark laws though. I think they are generally much more strict that for example in Sweden. In Sweden for example, you can’t infringe on a trademark as long as you stay out of comercial use. Since the bnetd case was not comercial, they did not sell the program and so on, there can’t be a trademark infringement no matter what. Another reason why I men tioned the country would matter. If we talk about running such a software, it would appearantly matter were one do it. Anyway, I am not sure it would actually be a trademark infringement even in the US though as long as it is clear that the server is not Blizzard themselves for example.


    Reverse engineering is in itself perfectly legal and actually supposed to be the way you SHOULD do it. That is not copyright infringement and as I said, specifically allowed for in most countries copyright laws. Blizzard initially claimed the bnetd software contained actual copied code from their client (not servers since that is something no one has access to so that would be hard), in the part that translated some of the communication. That part seems to have been droped as well though and I don't think they ever managed to show that it was the case. That would of course have been copyright infringement had it been true. By the way, I provide the link to the case bellow, it is a LOT of reading though, I have myself actually read almost all of the documents (not completely all the amicus documents though).

    Obviously they can fight such programs in any (legal) way they want. I don't think battling in court is the way to go though, especially since they seem to have a much weaker case than they initially presented. I would say they were lucky the bnetd people happened to live in US since they seem to be able to contract away reverse engineering there (although we still don't know since the case is not over, no date yet set for it last time I asked a few weeks ago). I would say that the project would be completely legal in many other countries though.

    My personal opiniopn is that Blizzard would have been much better of had they actually admited that competition is OK and left such projects alone. I think they would have prosped more out of it that way and not get so much bad publicity as it actually give. I think they actually DID tolerate it in the beginning, what appearantly triggered them (although it might just have been the spark and it would have come anyway) was that the bnetd projects spawned other projects, one of which allowed the WC3 beta to be playable on those servers.

    In any case, I think it is an interesting case and it definately have many eyes on it, especially outside the gaming industry but in software in general and among law circles dealing with such things as copyright and contracts.

    http://www.eff.org/IP/Emulation/Blizzard_v_bnetd/

    Heh, I just noticed there is a reply brief from the Apellants, that is the bnetd side, have not seen or read it yet, will be interesting. Happy reading!
     

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