Latest Diablo 3 News
DiabloWiki Updates
Support the site! Become a Diablo: IncGamers PAL - Remove ads and more!

as requested by dcar. new thread. dupes vs. cheating discussion? o

Discussion in 'Classic' started by goomba, Nov 13, 2006.

  1. goomba

    goomba IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2006
    Messages:
    1,298
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    as requested by dcar. new thread. dupes vs. cheating discussion?

    I personally only have 2 or 3 dupes on nonladder, and really haven't played non ladder in months. that being said, the dupes were gifts to me, from folks that paypalled for items. something, as dcar mentioned is viewed as cheating by the admins of this board. (the guy that gave me the items, is in his 50s, and purchased several full accounts to get his 12 yr old, and 9 yr old sons a jump start in the game, that they all 3 play, and they were gifts for thanking me for playing with them, levelling them, rushing them, and generally not acting like the stereotypical punk kid that tends to play these days)

    I'm somewhat curious as to why one would take such a strict stance on paypal/purchasing in game items. sure, it's lame, that someone would spend real world money, on in game virtual items that *poof* if you let your account expire, or get banned by bnet but there evidently is a market for it even after all of these years.

    if it's to "protect the kids" they shouldn't have a paypal account regardless due to paypal's ToS. (last I read it, I have not had a paypal account in quite a few years)

    back to the topic at hand though. dupes. tempt a noob in the game, with what is obviously a godly item (who would have duped ****ty items way back when?) and they are certainly not going to alt+tab to a web browser to look to see if the item is on some dupe list.

    I see my non-ladder pals talking amongst themselves via "/f msg" about trying to assemble godly dupes, and honestly most I haven't ever seen before, and of the few I have, I forget what many actually are.

    one could go with the assumption, that "if it has 'shanks' in the name, and it's a pair of boots with 30/10/tri rez and mf or such" that it's a dupe. except I saw a pair like that in the trade window on ladder a week or so ago... (ladder is supposedly a dupe-free zone right?)
     
  2. mikxer

    mikxer IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    6
    ohohoh ur s-t-r-o-n-g-l-y mistaken if you think that (cl)ladder is dupe free ... although it takes several times longer to dupe on cl than on lod, people do it ... for instance once per ladder just to have some fun ( not for real crash) but anyway of corse lod-duping is much better bussines but i am sure that cl-duping exist. and those are not words but this is what i saw in real life --> brother of a friend of mine is running a bussines on sorta equivalent of e-bay in my country and i saw in real life how it realy works
     
  3. fledgeling

    fledgeling IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2005
    Messages:
    1,781
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    466
    europe NL is both "destroyed" and "balanced" because of dupes

    the new players have absolutely no chances of becoming better than the ones who use dupes
    unless they find 5-10 sojs to buy duped gear

    the dupes used to be pretty common and the GOOD dupes werent that costy. they also allow people to make other class characters - for example
    a duped 341 max dmg lance had 30IAS as far as I remember

    of course the dupes arent THAT godly, but is pretty hard to find something better. plus people who actually own the dupes and play the game also try to buy the "rares better than dupes"

    on the other hand, dules become more skill based
    everyone is using the same items (of course it involves a lot of luck when you do 1-2 k damage or something...)

    on the other hand, most people who use the dupes dont have much skill on duelling and people with good items still kill them easily

    the realm doesnt have any real duels, just public lame 7v1 games

    I suggested once the few "best duellers on realm" to make a tournament, but they laughet at me, probably because of getting scared.

    Seriously, if someone using a 185 battle hammer (on a level 85 barb) fails to kill a level 75 clegger, he has to be a poor dueller (my friend kills them from time to time, which shows the lack of skill of the dupe-users and the general randomness of the game)


    grr, I should rewrite this post, it's a bunch of random thoughts

    starting on NL means that people might give you free items, because they despise "garbage" like gulls etc..
     
  4. goomba

    goomba IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2006
    Messages:
    1,298
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    I'm aware that there is *some* duping on C-ladder. from what I understand it's most typically sojs that are duped, as they are used to socket gear. apparently they have a habit of going *poof* even when "permed".

    that being said, the number of dupes on ladder is obviously somewhat smaller than on NL due to for one, a different timeframe to have obtained/duped said items.



     
  5. mikxer

    mikxer IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    6
    the items that people also dupe are just kicky rares without socket and then you make one with the legit soj and insert legit gem and then it's not possible for this item to vanish.
     
  6. WarlockCC

    WarlockCC Diablo Classic Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    2,991
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    121
    That would suck if the item under your socket just vanished but left the socket. :)
    "I have just killed you using only this socket with a gem in it. How does that make you feel ?"
     
  7. goomba

    goomba IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2006
    Messages:
    1,298
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    I'm aware that there is other duping going on in classic ladder. the point was/is though, that there isn't a ton of it, for one this ladder season is what, in it's 15th or so month? Certainly godly items have been found, and some duped, but not to the level of the 1.09 and/or earlier days that resulted in classic non-ladder having a boat load of dupes. (e.g. have you heard anyone on ladder referring to an item by it's "name" yet? )



     
  8. mikxer

    mikxer IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    6
    but theres a very important fact that causes the change between ,09 and ,10 - methods have changed and those are not that easy as they were in 1,09. its not possible for a common player to find out how to dupe, because now there no noobs amongst dupesr and they simply dont like to boast with their abilities. so they wouldnt dupe 6546594 times to make "common dupes" like there were in 1,09. so only this little group of ppl + their friends have an access to duped stuff. some of it of trade but you wouldnt recognize them for sure cause there're only few of them
     
  9. goomba

    goomba IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2006
    Messages:
    1,298
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    a few weeks ago, one of those dupers made a public game, and was taking dupe requests (and showing how to do it).

    I stayed out of it, as I didn't need to know how, and didn't want my account or more importantly my cd-key associated on any server log files of such things going down.

    I'm somewhat curious if anyone on ladder duped my old mart before I got it. (281 dmg) it certainly would have been a good candidate, and while the p Eme was fun for painting monsters green, and/or preventing them healing, it would have been much better P Amy, or Pskull, or one of each :p

    I have some very nice stuff, but nothing truly "uber godly" like a certain someone's 100 ED 30/20 prizmatic grim shield with a p dia in it...



     
  10. Rawly

    Rawly IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2005
    Messages:
    408
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    83
    This sort of stuff sounds alot like conspiracy theories where there is no evidance just speculation, but i too would suspect that there are ways to dupe on classic just that they are not as easy as lod where there has been at least 2 well known ways to dupe using items/effects that have been introduced recently into lod.



     
  11. goomba

    goomba IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2006
    Messages:
    1,298
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    I know people, that were customers of one of those dupers. (they don't post here to my knowledge) I know we're on shaky/thin ice with the subject all around so I'm just going to state that there has been duping on east classic ladder this season.



     
  12. quadeddie

    quadeddie IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2006
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    57
    I love the dupe games that always end up in having somebody download an itemdropper or keylogger. I jump in and go along with it just to see how people operate.

    I once had a guy put a SOJ in the trade window for my gull and shard and clicked the green checkbox. I was suspicious so I asked him to make a new game. He refused, gave some excuse then started talking to someone else. I was pretty sure it was a trade hack, but I was 25% tempted to try :\.

    Also, as to cheating... I think that there should be a brief disclosure on the ways people cheat (so that people can know what to look for), but no in-depth discussion on it or linking to it.



     
  13. Rawly

    Rawly IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2005
    Messages:
    408
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    83
    As i have played since the beginning of the game (and origonal diablo although never played that online). I would consider myself to be a legit player upto a point, although i must admit i was corrupted this round with maphack for a while.

    There has been points in time when i have for some reason got really excited by a particular expoit. The origonal one being gambling for uniques, when i found out about the rule of how unique rings were generated i.e. that if there were no unique rings in a game a nagel would drop then a manald then an soj. This could be used to your advantage because if you had the first two when gambling if a unique came up which used to be much higher than it is now, roughly speaking there would be one unique per gambling screen. So for about 2-3 million gold you could gamble yourself an soj, although that was more awkward back then as you didnt always get a ring to gamble for, although there were ways around this.

    Any way back to the point when i found out about packet sniffers and the problem with the gambling screen which was that it sent the information of the items to the client before you gambled so if you knew the code for a unique you could gamble knowing what you were going to get. This made gambling for sojs much cheaper but still time consuming would take about 1 hour to find one soj but you could also pick up lots of other uniques in that time too. This is quite clearly using an exploit but is it cheating???

    This happens all the time in computer games people discover ways to use the game to their advantage, i guess the dream duping wave that made the game unplayable recently due to server lag is an exploit but in my opinion it is totally unacceptable when you effect the other peoples game playing.

    I have been given dupes by a friend in the past but dont have any now i only play for the ladder not too bothered by items unless they help my characters stay alive for leveling and i mostly use only items i find, think i have only traded once this ladder for a +2 pala prisma shield as the one i had was too heavy (sold a couple of items too for forum gold, which is an interesting notion). At the end of the last ladder i just dumped all my mule items in a free items game and deleted all my characters except one (highest one) which i kept a few items on.

    Also i never used maphack until this round mainly through fear of keyloggers etc... but ofc when i did use it I got caught which i suppose taught me a lesson.

    What do people think about forum gold? and trading items legit or duped using this commodity, much more useful in classic as you dont have a useful currency ingame for buying all types of items.
     
  14. goomba

    goomba IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2006
    Messages:
    1,298
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    I never, ever, ever could understand the point/usefulness of forum gold.

    at least, with ebay/paypal (I know, we can't talk about this) you are getting something more useful for the time it took to acquire/assemble items/accounts/chars.

    forum gold? what's it good for? I know on other forums, it's heavily used, but I guess I just don't see the point. but then, I also don't see the point of paying real world money for in game items either.

    that being said, yes, it has occurred to me to consider at least selling stuff for real world money, but I despise paypal and ebay, and let's face it, the market is shrinking more and more for classic as the player pool shrinks more and more as the game ages. so, in a nutshell it's just not worth the hassle (to me)

    exploiting known bugs, that bnet is lazy, or refuses to fix is one thing that I have definately seen a "grey area" attitude that this site talks about.

    e.g. non-quest lord Diablo kills, andy/mephy glitch kills, level 1 killing Andy for quest (via ginormous chant) yet, the other forms of 'glitching' somehow are verboten for discussion. let alone my comment on using legitimate server based architecture such as citrix or terminal services for multi-account/cd play, received a thorough thrashing from the mod.

    never mind the fact that it did not violate Blizzard's ToS, nor could I find reference on this site re: same.

    I guess that, in a nutshell is where my growing discontent has come from re: my perception of double standards.

    as is mentioned however in this sight's rules/ToS - it's not my site, I acknowledge that, but history books have demonstrated that oppression, and heavy handedness, in the same light as the perception of a double standard is not a healthy environment.



     
  15. quadeddie

    quadeddie IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2006
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    57
    I'm a bit gray on the topic of cheating...

    In the case of the gambling packet hack - bnet was sending the information across to you. By default, the game ignored it until the item was purchased, but being given the information and blizzfully ignoring it is not something you can trust everyone to do. It's good they fixed this, or else it would have flattened the economy and convinced most of us to stop playing long ago.

    As for paypaling, I don't see a problem with it. The cost in gametime to find an item should be worth cash. Some games are finally embracing this concept so you definitely can't argue that its a universal constant that virtual items cannot equal real money.

    (However if you live in the US, the IRS may be interested in the liquification of your assets lol)

    While I understand the reasons for the rules on this forum (because it's a slippery slope once you allow something) and I understand people against cheating (they want a level playing field), you also have to agree that cheating happens and is a part of the game to one degree or another.
     
  16. Dacar92

    Dacar92 Community, Amazon, DH Moderator & Inc Clan Officer

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2003
    Messages:
    10,924
    Likes Received:
    65
    Trophy Points:
    475
    I guess it's time for me to jump in here. I have read all of the posts and have my own opinions on what is and what is not cheating. Let's see if they jive with yours.

    But before I get to that, Goomba, I guess I didn't understand what you were getting at with the multiple server/cd key/account set up. I apologize for misunderstanding and now I "get" what you were referring to. You are talking about setting up a server that can handle several legit accounts playing in the same game, if I understand correctly. I don't initially see a problem with that as long as all of the accounts are legit and the games are played on Bnet(or SP TCP/IP), not some third party Bnet wannabee. I do it at home for muling, mostly, or sometimes parking another character ingame for more xp in normal mode. I don't think that is cheating. Does anyone?

    I really don't see exploits as cheating. I guess it depends on what it is. In Oblivion, there was an exploit that allowed you to kill a guy and then keep taking infinite money from him. There was another that had to do with an arrow that was equipped and then sold and you could keep selling it to also get infinite money. Those kind of exploits I would see as cheating because in a game like that, money can buy you training. Training makes you a better sword swinger or a better arrow shooter in Oblivion. Those bugs have been fixed. In Diablo, mephy quest bugs and soj gambling bugs may or may not have been fixed by Bliz. If they are not fixed, they are still there to be used. Many would choose not to use them. But many would. But generating items in game, via a method that was built in to the game, is not necessarily cheating, whether generated by an exploit or not. I am not sure if what I just said is hypocritical or not. You tell me. I guess if you have the time and gold to gamble 30 soj's and then trade them, that could be considered cheating. Bad mannered to say the least.

    What I consider cheating is using a third party program, like MH, to gain an artificial advantage over others. In addition, cheating is using a third party program to generate items. Making items from thin air or copying items from an originally legit item is cheating. Using third party programs to farcast is cheating. Those who use such programs probably think it is funny. I just don't want that attitude around here. It is not funny. It is childish and immature. Play the game the way it was meant to be played. Make it a challenge for yourself. If the way it was meant to be played is not the way it IS played (read: bugs and exploits) then play it to your liking. I really don't think bugs and exploits in a game like Diablo is cheating. Again, it could be if you decided to spend two months gambling soj's and then trade them. But the items would still be dropped by the game, in a legit way, albeit with a bug. So, I guess I still don't know how I feel about that. What do you guys think? Still, I would choose not to take advantage of those bugs and exploits.

    I have to go back to work. I like the discussion so far and think it will help our little corner of this forum.
     
  17. Dacar92

    Dacar92 Community, Amazon, DH Moderator & Inc Clan Officer

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2003
    Messages:
    10,924
    Likes Received:
    65
    Trophy Points:
    475
    You posted while I was composing. We know that cheating exists. We understand that people won't stop. We just don't want how to's and where's to be posted here.

    I do not agree that in game time should be worth money. Do something else with your time then. Go to work. Gaming is a hobby and the last time I looked, hobbies were not money makers for many people. When you start making money off of someone else's work, that is copyright infringement and probably a violation of the EULA.



     
  18. quadeddie

    quadeddie IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2006
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    57
    I guess we have to agree to disagree then. I would argue that the paypallers are making money off of their work which was done in Bliz' environment. If they have language in their EULA that bars this behavior, I would like to see it challenged in court.



     
  19. goomba

    goomba IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2006
    Messages:
    1,298
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    that's exactly what I had been talking about in that other thread. unlike many folks with multiple cd-keys, I purchased, and have in my physical possession both of mine.

    Glad we're on the same page now :)

    grey areas, grey areas, and more grey areas. the 'cheat' in oblivion, in my mind isn't a cheat. it's an exploit. I guess so to was the lag-duping., which is where I too will confess to having mixed emotions on it. I'd love a couple more sojs to socket some nice items, but won't bother to go through the efforts to attempt to get them via this method for a couple of reasons. one, I've been on the the other end, of the lag created when people are doing this crap en masse, and even suffered a substantial "loss" of an item due to a server roll back - note this was a legit item that I had found

    I will definitely agree with you on 3rd party hacks (for the most part), and far cast things, but I wonder too where to draw that line. if for example, a mouse driver allows you to put what traditionally would be a right handed attack, on the left hand button, or via a series of keyboard+mouse key macro, is this blurring the line? (purely hypothetical)

    map hack however, I don't have the same feelings on, if it's used to strictly reveal the map. I know someone using it, and there is a slight lag blip when it reveals the act, so that's irritating. I can see how, "plug in mode" as it was referred to, used to locate a player/group to pk them can also most definitely be an abuse, and I've been on the wrong end of that not only in D2, but years, and years ago in D1 as well.

    someone a few months ago posted, about the idea of having a purchaseable scroll from the NPC's that would reveal the map for an act, or at least certain waypoints. I very much like that idea seeing as I'm a PVM player for the most part.

    I'm also glad that so far, the discussion has proven at least worth bantering around, and not had to result in heavy editing, or the use of the banstick :)



     
  20. JEstevam

    JEstevam IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    265
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    102
    If you join a game where you can't get credit for a boss kill, you can kill that boss for a 1st kill drop over and over

    How long has this been the case?
     

Share This Page