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Are you Hardcore?

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by elganame, Mar 4, 2011.

  1. elganame

    elganame Diabloii.Net Member

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    Are you Hardcore?

    Hi there!

    Im gonna be honest here, i never played HC mode because for me, dieing was to learn, to give the monsters a chance to kill me and than having me the revenge!

    I think that all chars wont die as easy as it was in D2 and will be more balanced!

    But still, dieing is fun, and its fun to go back and kick that demons butt!

    Still i wanna hear some of your opinions, what pushes you to make a HC Char, is there a better one for this? Did you have a MF HC Char?

    Tell me about it, meaby you can convince me!
     
  2. Flux

    Flux Administrator

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    Re: Are you Hardcore?

    I don't recall why I started playing HC D2C, shortly after release. I was playing a lot and not dying very much and wanted more challenge, I was curious what it would be like, I knew some other people who were going HC, and one thing led to another.

    I remember making a number of jabazons, most of whom died in NM (Fangskin in the tiny lvl 2 of the tomb was a terror pre-v1.09.), all of them almost un-twinked.

    My first really successful char was a bowazon who got to lvl 80ish (which was high, back in early D2C). There's a great feeling of accomplishment and satisfaction in the early going, when you gradually tip the lever from "desperately clawing for survival" to "accumulating riches." I started building up a warchest of loot on mules, I could make new chars with some twinks which greatly helped their development, I could start saving up end game gear, I started doing MF runs of Meph, etc.

    Plus in those days everyone was still learning the game. I remember before faster casting and mana regen was properly valued (everyone thought +skills were far more important). I remember before we really understood the power of leech (especially for a bowazon, with bow dmg bugged, people wore frostburns and +mana gear instead of going for +dmg and mana leech). And it was fun being on the learning curve, and playing characters that weren't immortal. Great incentive to learn quickly, that.


    The whole thing grew fairly routine during v1.09 D2X, as I had numerous lvl 90 chars of all types, a 99 Javazon, optimized most of them for MF, loved doing solo baal runs in 8 player cow run games with my MF bowazon, etc. But I still fondly remember the danger and excitement of the early days, when I was really playing without a net, with 90% of my good items on a single char, knowing they were all gone if I screwed up. (Which I did, several times. The game was vastly more perilous in those early days when MSLEs and other boss combos were so lethal.)

    I have 2 main reasons for wanting to play HC in D3.

    1) The fun factor, as described above, and 2) the quality of party play factor. Almost every memory I have of playing public softcore games in D2C and D2X is a bad one. No camaraderie, no strategy, no equipment optimization... just public game after public game full of players who played with total reckless abandon since why not? There wasn't any real penalty for dying, since the gold penalty was meaningless and the exp penalty only mattered at very high levels. The one thing that was much better in SC games was that one wannabe PK didn't necessarily ruin the game, since you could throw down without consequences and just have fun.

    That's what I fear/expect the public games in D3's SC will be like, once the novelty of things wears off and players start self-rushing and min/maxing and going all glass cannon wild style, since in a game like D3 there are always greater rewards on the next level, hence whatever you can do to get there sooner is your best strategy... when dying doesn't penalize you.


    That said, there are 2 factors working against my planned D3 HC enjoyment. 1) lack of playing time, and 2) desire to play the Arena.

    Since the (apparent) lack of a practice/sparring HC mode means that Arena will be no more than occasional novelty for HC players, and since I know I won't have time to build up SC and HC chars, my desire to duel regularly may well prevent me from playing HC D3. Alas.
     
  3. TheMythe

    TheMythe Diablo: IncGamers Member

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    Re: Are you Hardcore?

    First off: Why didn't you make a poll out of it, we could use a good poll for a change, see where our hearts lie and all that.

    I played HC but the @#$%^%$# PK'ers ruined my fun. I was willing to accept the odds of dying by monster X, what I fail to recognise is that people hunt people in a game. I'm all co-op here :)

    It simply IS a thrill to have that feeling of only having 1 life to spend. If Blizzard gives us a good game again, we'll be on the edges of our seats examining every pixel of our screen closely for everything that might hurt our toon.

    Just try it, see how it feels, it can be quite addicting :)
     
  4. Kaknoos

    Kaknoos Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Are you Hardcore?

    D2 HC (1.09) was only a challenge for me to get that first sorceress to 80+ to start farming Mephi Hell for gear... after gearing up abit get mules full of gear... friends doing the same stuff, after that it basicly became all easy just boosting eachother tru everything, few cow runs and bam your lvl 90 in 1 day... but then really fun stuff began, making duel chars. Lvl 99's ofc, but also lvl 14-19 for pure twink fun. Having mad gears on my 99 barb, I still remember 95% ias ITH blade, 160/60/100 armor, 3/xx/xx gems, warcry charms+xx Life, 40/15jeweled or Ber runed gear, had some very rare 1.08 items aswell. All got duped later on (sorry for that, was still young so careless at the time). Oh i've remember my necklace self crafted +2barb, +xx resist all, +xx str, +xx dex, teleport charges. Got banned all after that tho... for a simple maphack. Made several awesome friends from that game, wich still after 10 years I'm hanging out with irl to the day. good times. tho kinda running OT...

    The thing about Hardcore is when you reach to a certain point where you can easily kill everything... you start to feel like your unbeatable... but that is not the case, if you don't pay attention at a point you might run into some rare spawn fanatic, extra strong, extra fast, cursed mad cow that chopchop you in 2 sec. Happens to me sometimes. At that point you probably feel miserable when you die. But it's the thrill when you play.. the adrenaline that rushes you sometimes on tight fights that keeps you going and on top of focus all the time, you don't give up when you die. Wich is also the addicting part. And that addicting part gets even more strongly when you have a friendslist full of hardcore players that feel the same, so you don't wanna just go back to softycore. And show your just some kind of whimp. Just saying my 2 cents =)
     
  5. Marjanpoimija

    Marjanpoimija Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Are you Hardcore?

    Started HC after getting tired of soft. Even though i've allmost broke my hand karatechopping my hand on the keyboard for dying again, it really was something much more rewarding. Still, whenever i want to PvP, i go to softgames, but my primarily fun did come from HC
     
  6. Ishtor

    Ishtor Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Are you Hardcore?

    I never really played or understood the fun in creating a hardcore character either. I do get the since of accomplishment of being a high level hardcore, but to me time is valuable - even though i spend a lot on these forums. I would think the cons of loosing a character after spending so much time on him, would turn me away from the game - when considering the disadvantages that go against you. Between a random lag or a prick hunting you in game, and just the random special monster that is immune to everything you can do, i find that it would just anger me. Hardcore play is not for me at all, even though i don't find dieing fun - i find loosing the character i spent countless hours on even worse.
     
  7. Nizaris

    Nizaris Clan Officer - US West Hardcore

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    Re: Are you Hardcore?

    My Diablo 2 experience has been split ever since I began playing. There has been the side that enjoys competitive PvP, and the side that enjoys a heightened challenge within PvE.


    The early days of my Diablo 2 experience were weighed far more heavily upon challenging PvE. This was a decisions that was greatly determined by increasing softcore problems that rendered PvP an insignificant battle between who has the most amount of hexes amassed in their stash and one's ability to avoid instant death. Upon the release of 1.09, I only played hardcore.

    I enjoyed the learning curve of hardcore. Similar to Flux's recollections, it was an evolutionary trek that started with trepidation and ended with confidence. Your style of progression must be tailored in such a way where you can begin to horde gear while augmenting your main character. Hardcore emphasized what one might call an 'achievement' within Diablo 2 as each state of progression was accomplished without death. Without the luxury of immortality, the hardcore player has a lot to lose. However, whenever a character of mine died (which happened on the rare occasion), it was a catalyst to refine technique at a later time. It was never a fun experience realizing that the character that you just lost wore one-of-a-kind rares that you'll never get back, or uniques that you'll never see again.

    HC provides a different culture of players and a heightened sense of awareness in those who engage the challenge. It was a great experience in the learning curve, as you gain insight into mechanics that you may never notice unless pitted with the possibility of losing that character forever. You begin to analyze fights in a different way and engage with caution and full knowledge of the tools given to you to stay alive.

    I ended up going back to SC, however, as when 1.10 and beyond arrived, I got back into good-mannered dueling. Ruststorm wiped out a large majority of duped and hacked items and I become competitive in the ladder. If I were to start up again, I would probably make a hardcore character simply because of increased bad mannered dueling, using gmod, aimbot, and other third-party hacks as well as spambots that have taken over battle.net.


    As a recommendation - I'd at least give it a try after you've worked on your SC characters if you've never done an HC character before. It's a completely new way to challenge yourself and you learn a lot of strategic advantages that you may never have learned in SC.
     
  8. elganame

    elganame Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Are you Hardcore?

    Great things you are all posting here, i think i needed something like this to get peoples opinion and some HC experience and incentives.

    I hate to compare D2 to other games but i had always that feeling that HC mode was way more hardcore than the Drop Item concept from other games (you die, you lose one random item).

    I get the gratification point, i prefer the "you learn strategy you wouldnt learn in SC mode", that is something i can be sure of. Its a whole new training and focus exercice.

    It is also true that some of us work and dont have time to spend in games like before and hardcore is a realy depending mode, you need to be on it! Also i would perfectly imagen Hardcore Clans, etc... thous who realy are compromised with the game.

    Keep posting, all of your opinions give Hardcore mode sence and meaning for thous who dont get the concept.
     
  9. Adree

    Adree Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Are you Hardcore?

    I never played hardcore in Diablo 2. I only played the game in general for a few weeks. I DID however play hardcore in Torchlight, and let me tell you, it is a completely different game.

    As soon as you add an element of risk, you really change the game experience. You approach things differently. You use caution, you don't just facepull 50 or so mobs...you approach them carefully, trying to separate them and pick off a few at a time. You play conservatively, you choose a totally different gear set that is set up to keep you alive, rather than doing the most damage in the shortest amount of time possible. Fights are longer and far more tactical (which is actually fun). It's just a totally different experience.

    I plan on doing both, because I like the idea of accumulating a bunch of gear and playing Arena, but I think hardcore is a much more enjoyable way to play the game.
     
  10. Nizaris

    Nizaris Clan Officer - US West Hardcore

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    Re: Are you Hardcore?

    Definitely! I also wanted to add that the encounters system, we'll really see an emphasis on tactical play in Hardcore.


     
  11. Bad Ash

    Bad Ash Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Are you Hardcore?

    Hardcore is just a totally different game experience and its a blast and also the most frustrating thing ever.

    My buddy and I would usually play just us since PKers were always a threat, and beating hell ancients is a HUUUUUUUUGE accomplishment if you are on your first hc char since you are relying on usually only the gear you find. I remember many hell ancient deaths and always rebooting to take them on. Madwac's Axe throw was very deadly.

    Playing in public games was amazing too as the fear of PK was in play, but you learned on the signs and how to avoid it. I remember once someone was being a jerk and hostiled my lvl 42 hydra sorc. I was scared obv, so I went through to cold plains wp to tele around before seeing if he was coming. I planted max hydras by the WP as a security measure and as I was moving away I saw I killed him cause he had the same cold plains idea. It was ridiculous.

    I also died once in A5 after an azn prob had 2 kills right outside of A5 entrance and I saw a huge pile of gold. Tantalized by this I ran out and grabbed it without thinking and was Lightning sentryd immediately haha.

    Anyways, its a rush, its a thrill, there will be unique monster battles where you have only a sliver of health and your heart is pumpin and you realize you are in love. Great stuff and can't wait to tackle it after I get SC done.

    As other people said I feel that HC loses some of its appeal when you get a huge group of mules with items cause you feel more powerful and it isnt as big of challenge, but starting with literally nothing and knowing one death is your last...its ridiculously fun
     
  12. tyren

    tyren Diablo: IncGamers Member

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    Re: Are you Hardcore?

    I have probably played equally as much SC as HC, both modes has it's pros and cons. HC mostly for more PvE, like how you how need to incorporate some strategy and tactics to avoid certain death in some cases, adds more excitement to it too. I suppose there's a sense of accomplishment to get a character to a high level and well equipped too. :)

    SC is good for when you're drunk and/or want to PvP since duels are over so quickly, like you can die withing a 1sec in D2 PvP wich is a little too frustrating for my taste when it takes months to build and gather equipment for a character. :)

    Edit: gotta agree with the above poster, the PK-threat was both thrilling and a frustrating part of the HC experience!
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2011
  13. Adree

    Adree Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Are you Hardcore?

    The solution to the boredom that sets in is called the 'Ironman' challenge. This is HC-plus. You enter the game world, and you are not allowed to visit vendors, banks, teleports back to town, etc. You go in one direction, and one direction only. A one way trip to the bowels of hell. You simply wade your way through the game with strictly what you pick up on your way. This adds an immense value to ANY kind of item you find, since you can't customize, buy, sell, enchant, etc. So you end up being appreciative of every little piece of junk that drops that you can actually slip into which contributes to your survival. Another tremendously fun way to play - typically you don't get very far though. :)

    You're obviously far weaker as well, since you only end up using the trash you find on the ground, so you have to approach fights in a completely different way than even in HC. I find this to be a very effective way to learn the really intricate details of the mechanics. You cut out all the noise from the uber weapons and armor, and it's just you, a sharp stick (if you're lucky) and an endless horde of demons.

    Things like hit boxes: how far back can you be away from the mob and hit him, without him hitting back? You can actually figure these things out if you are ultra-cautious and micro-manage every aspect of your pitiful Ironman existence.

    It's definitely not for the faint of heart, but man does it get your heart pumping.


     
  14. TheMythe

    TheMythe Diablo: IncGamers Member

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    Re: Are you Hardcore?

    If such a mode will be implemented, which does sound like fun, in SP or MP, I hope they'll implement a way to pause the game or else it'll be undoable lest your chair is the toiletseat.
    Next to that, gold is out of the loottables.
    Would be great if Blizzard made achievement rewards for it that'll be stuck to your account, not your toon.
    That way people can see how far you have gotten during an Ironman run.


     
  15. Flux

    Flux Administrator

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    Re: Are you Hardcore?

    But the value of the time is the enjoyment you have playing. If your enjoyment playing HC is far more than playing SC for the same time spent, then HC is a much better choice for limited time.

    The big "if" is how you value end game vs. general playing experience. If your whole point is to get top items and play on hell, then SC is probably a better choice, since you know you'll get there eventually, even if you're the worst player on Battle.net. But that devalues it for me, since anyone and everyone playing SC can get to hell and clvl 60 in D3; so what's the accomplishment in that?


    Another thing I like about HC is that it really pushes players to know what they're doing and to optimize their gear.

    I had some unique insight into that, since around 2003 we started running a "donate your chars if you're quitting" thing on diabloii.net, and dozens of players who were quitting the game sent me emails with their account/password. I logged on and saw what they had and made some effort to organize it onto mules for distribution to the surprising hordes (hundreds and hundreds) of players who said they wanted any handouts we could give them.

    99% of the donated chars/accounts were SC, and I was shocked at poorly the chars were built/equipped. Even on high level chars, 80s and 90s, they had just glaring holes in their gear. Most chars had 1 or 2 very good items; elite unique weapon, duped dual leech ring, SHAKO, etc. But the rest was junk. Lazy junk. Blue rings with just +str, or rare gloves/boots/belts that I wouldn't have worn past lvl 25 with a HC char, entire inventories full of very mediocre charms, etc. And it wasn't like these guys had given away their good items before the donation; the chars were fully-equipped; just not very well. They'd have -25% res to fire, or no IAS, or far less FHR than was reasonable, etc.

    Ironically, their top items were great. Dupes maybe, or just floating around in the SC economy since no items ever left it, so the great stuff built up over time. But in general, high level SC chars had 2 or 3 top quality items better than almost any HC char had. It was all the rest of their gear that was crap. And it was lazy crap, in that it could have been greatly improved with just some common sense. Gold collection and systematic gambling would have done 90% of it; it's not like scoring a good rare gloves/boots/belt in D2 is that hard, or making a Rhyme shield was a huge chore. It just took a player who was conscientious about their character's survival.

    Now obviously a SC char could do that... but why bother? It wouldn't help that much, and since dying wasn't more than a few seconds inconvenience in SC, why bother? Just run around with a Windforce, uni Grim Helm, and Mara's, with the rest crap, and kill well enough.


    My point is not to slander all SC players, but to point out that playing HC is fun in of itself, but also in how it forces/encourages players to play smart and systematic. I like having to really worry about every hit point and resistance %, since at some point, that little bit extra really will be the difference between survival and utter failure.



     
  16. Nizaris

    Nizaris Clan Officer - US West Hardcore

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    Re: Are you Hardcore?

    Vampire Gaze? Haha.

    I agree with pretty much everything you said regarding Diablo 2.

    I think the big difference in the coming Diablo 3 is that arena play will be the big draw and sense of accomplishment that HC won't really be able to claim. While you can always do an arena in HC, you're guaranteed at least one person will go home with a lost character.

    I'm certain I'll be playing both - but which I'll start with is a toss-up.


     
  17. Flux

    Flux Administrator

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    Re: Are you Hardcore?

    I couldn't remember what the damn dual leech green unique excep skull helm was called, and since I was typing it sitting in bed I didn't care enough to open another tab and surf with the stupid touch pad. So bleh.


    On the Arena, I'm beating this horse to death, but as much as losing a char, the problem with HC arena is that you just won't get to do it very much. Arena is really fun, and you want to play lots of rounds in a row. But you can't in HC, since you'll die, or even if you don't, you won't have an endless supply of people to fight against. Even if everyone who played HC was doing it just to build up a character for dueling, if it took a week to get to max level and well equipped, and then every 30 seconds one of those characters died and could never be played again... there just would not be enough warm bodies to keep regular arena matches going. And obviously, no more than a small % of HC players will ever risk a high level char in a duel.

    Meanwhile, your friends who play SC will spend all night playing non-stop Arena games, trying out new strategies and teamwork techniques and different characters and different skills and new equipment and just generally have a fantastic time enjoying a game feature that HC players are being intentionally denied.

    Imagine if they were designing the SC arena so that when you lost you couldn't play again for an hour. That would be the dumbest design feature ever! (Even worse than removing the weapon switch hotkey.) Yet that's exactly how it works in the HC arena, except it's a lot longer than an hour.



     
  18. Farmrush

    Farmrush Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Are you Hardcore?

    Right, Flux.

    Although low, or mid, level dueling may be doubly exciting in HC.
     
  19. Thecla

    Thecla Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Are you Hardcore?

    IMO, a good HC mode is crucial for the longevity of the game. Eventually, SC becomes sort of pointless, for me anyway, and (since I don't like PvP myself) HC is the way to go. You do, of course, have to adjust to losing characters and items.

    Two things you do need though for HC are: (a) a reliable multiplayer setup (repeated lag-deaths tend to kill even my enthusiasm for HC); (b) gameplay that punishes tactical mistakes but doesn't deal out random or unavoidable deaths.

    The early days of DII had neither, which could maker HC an exercise in frustration --- lag, black screens, and disconnects (with the inevitable waking-up-as-a-shroud) were frequent. And there were some awful fights like Duriel, where the long load-time on entering his lair usually meant you were helplessly dead before your screen eventually cleared.

    Those issues have been pretty much (but not 100%) fixed now --- the problem now is that if you don't get hit by the occasional lag death and you know what the one-hit-kill risks are you basically don't die in HC DII anymore. I'm pretty sure DIII will have good, and pretty much lag free, network support and hopefully the combat will be more tactically based, so I think it should make for pretty good HC, though I worry a bit that the devs aren't focused too much on that aspect of the game.

    Actually, the best ARPG HC experience I've had was in Hellgate:London close to the time it shut down. The servers were pretty lag-free, and in HC/Elite mode you could go very quickly from feeling utterly invincible to dead if you hit a tough boss group (quite a few of them more-or-less appeared out of nowhere, with slight clues that they were there) and made some tactical mistakes. I lost numerous fairly high level characters (mostly sorceress-type evokers) in that game, and nearly all of them to actual game-play mistakes not to lag. (This despite the fact that the game had both potions and portals. :) ) Having a shared character stash in that game, though, was very nice for rebuilding HC characters, so the same should be true in DIII.

    Anyway, hopefully DIII will lend itself to HC --- but IMO the combat needs to strike a balance between the so-slow-that-you-can-disengage (maybe by running away or using an appropriate skill) whenever you might be in trouble, and the one-hit-kill mentality of DII, or even worse having situations where you can get just trapped and killed with no way to control what happens if you turn out to be unlucky.
     
  20. Spmurphy

    Spmurphy Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Are you Hardcore?

    I play Hardcore and only hardcore. After I did the once through softcore I knew I would go redside and never go back. I understand this isn't for everyone. I understand and respect Softies. I don't look down upon them. I simply know that isn't the mode for me. I'd end up deleting lots of softy characters when I grew bored of them. In Hardcore mode there's something that takes care of that for me most of the time.

    I like the feeling of being a newbie. I like starting from scratch and being untwinked. I like working hard to build twinked characters who are a real time and effort investment. I like cooperative play and teamwork. I don't care about losing items, giving away items, deleting items, getting stuff stolen, or whatever. I just want to see stuff blow up and have a dynamic (meaning "frequently changing) gaming experience. I have two brothers who are the same way. We like to play together. We all knew we wanted to play Hardcore. We also tend to play a lot and try to eek every ounce of power out of our characters and the game. We want this strive for power to last a long time. Hardcore mode simply takes more time to accomplish everything.

    Here's a Hardcore story:
    Not long after the release of LoD: My brother, myself and someone from the internet are trioing a Baal run. I am on a high level twinked out Meteor/Orb Sorceress built to tank. My brother is on a high level Bear Druid who is nigh-immune to everything and built to take out MSLEs and go into portals that would kill most anything else. Our friend is on a slightly lower level untwinked Amazon. They are doing Baal for the first time. We know our friend is a competent and very good player but who's on a character that isn't as far along as our two.

    We're at the thrown room. We know Lister is coming. At this point in time computers weren't so great so standard procedure was to walk out of the thrown room to avoid a huge lag spike when Lister spawns. Our friend was directly at the landing point and not moving. Is he looking at items on the ground? That's a common newbie mistake. But he's not a newbie. My brother and I look at each other. We say simultaneously "He lagged out." Oh ****. Without speaking we both look back at our own computers. We both know that we aren't retreating. It doesn't need to be said. Somehow we're going to keep this disconnected, untwinked Amazon alive when Hell Lister spawns directly on top of him.

    Our characters are both built to tank and neither has fantastic damage output. Also, neither of our characters are great in terms of mana. Lister doesn't draw Lightning enchanted nor an aura. We luck out! The Bear spams his aoe stun. He locks down all the weaker minions. He mixes in wacks to Lister's face. My sorceress rains down all hell. All of this is occurring with an Amazon standing perfectly still within arm's reach of Lister. We both fly through our Full Rejucs. We don't need the health... just the mana. Our damage is still terrible. My brother says he's running out of Potions. We can't let Lister and his friends move at all... the Amazon would die in a moment. My brother says he's out of Potions. The minions finally fall! Only Lister remains! Our friend finally disconnects from the game. We take out Lister about 30 seconds (an eternity) later.

    My brother and I are both breathing heavily and shaking our heads. Our hands come off the keyboards and mice. We get a tell...
    "Hey guys don't worry about my guy. I relogged. I'm still alive."
     

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