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Are We Cheaters?

Discussion in 'Hardcore' started by Unholy_VI, Apr 5, 2004.

  1. Unholy_VI

    Unholy_VI IncGamers Member

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    Are We Cheaters?

    I was looking up information on a 'speed hack'

    that I heard being talked about in a game tonight. I didnt find any info on it but did see a thread on cheating in general that made me stop and think.

    The poster was complaining about maphack users and how its cheating just like duping or pindlebots ect...

    I always have agreed even before blizzard came out and threatened to ban people for it that maphack is cheating for a few reasons:

    A) It cuts down the time needed to exp, quest, and level so that the maphacker gets to see several times the amount of drops per unit of time or complete the acts several times faster ect...

    B) It cuts down on the risk. Especially true in hardcore. I walk into a pack of bad guys i didnt expect quite often. Many times when a random boss comes on my screeen i have no idea what its mods are until i'm tangling with it. maphacker knows all before he starts.

    C) It is something that Blizzard never intended for people to be able to do in the game. like duping, like pindlebots or anything else similar.

    Some of the maphackers were arguing that even coming to these forums is cheating in the same way. Of course, like anyone else being naughty they were just trying to justify their maphacking.

    Still... the argument got to me, I have to admit. People who come to these forums know darn well that most of the info here was taken from people who reverse engineered the game, looked at all of the data files on skills, item stats, drop info and other game mechinics.

    and I propose that:

    A) it cuts down on the time needed to exp, quest, MF ect... to know the exact best equipment and skill set-ups for every character, where the best places to hunt for items are, and all of the detailed info on skills and items that isnt available on the Blizzard site.

    B) It certainly cuts down on the risk of dying to know these things.

    C) Blizz definitely didnt intend for people to break down their source code and read their formulae and data files to figure out how to play this game. Did they know it would happen? Of course. But knowing someone will do it and intending it are two different things.

    So if we use such information... are we like the guy who pays for or trades for known duped items and doesnt consider it cheating becuase he didnt dupe them?

    Or the one who does it 'becuase everyone else has them so I have to to stay competitive?'

    Sure I didnt reverse engineer the code. But now the info is widely known so I HAVE to be up on it too or everyone else will be making much better chars.

    Honestly, even twinking chars out is probobly a form of cheating if you think about it.

    I'm curious to see what other HC players think. Me, I feel that there are levels of cheating and that all of us do things that could well be considered cheating. but maybe it just comes down to degrees of pureness.

    I consider the legit dueler without maphack, pindlebots, or other illegal aids to be much more honorable than the chickenlife maphacker. but...

    dont most of those guys get their buddy to poweract them so they can have the benefits of quest the char could not usually have completed at their level? Don't they reserch their builds in these forums using info gained from hacking into the code?

    Sure they do. Is it cheating in the strictest sense? I would have to say yes.

    DO I do it? Of course!

    SO I guess I'm a cheater.. but there is a line that I won't cross. its somewhere between using info someone gained from hacking the game code, twinking (Both of which I do) and using maphack, chickenlife, duping or using dupes, and running MF bots (Which I don't)

    Is there a difference between me and people who do those things? I like to think so but maybe we are all just cheaters to whatever level well feel is comfortable. :drink:
     
  2. doubleOObubble

    doubleOObubble IncGamers Member

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    You have a good point, but I don't think it's comparable. There is no good way to define exactly what is cheating and not for every thing. Let's run it down to this:

    Morally:
    If you think you are a cheater by reading facts that have evolved from reverse engineering - don't read it. You can still come here and read about strange occurances, nice finds, PK "discussions" etc etc.

    Practically:
    The information exchanged here regarding things Blizzard probably didn't meant for people to reverse engineer affects our minds and our builds. I'm not going to say it's not cheating and I'm not going to say it is - it doesn't matter that much. However, in a small attempt of fairly "jusification"; This is "passive" information used for building very special characters. It's not interacting with the game in the same way as for example MH.

    Again: I think your point is very valid. But I think the straight comparison is a bit too much. With a short "justiying" analogy on why going here is not comparable to using 3'd party programs would be something like this:

    a) Reading a book and reading up on poker strategies, going for a poker game, playing it fair.

    or

    b) Stuffing your sleave with aces, going for a poker game, cheating.

    Of course, the book on poker strategies does not tell you what hand you are getting later that night. However, it does tell you what to do with what hands... Maybe a so and so analogy, but it's about the same dimension as the topic at hand I think.

    Interesting nonetheless!
     
  3. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ IncGamers Member

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    The info is stored in easy to read and mod mpq files. Blizzard does actively encourage modding communities, not necessarily with D2, but they took a LARGE step with WC3. It's not the case of "they knew it would happen and couldn't stop it" it's more the case of they knew it would happen and made it almost as easy as possible to accomplish, I mean they could have encrypted the MPQs or something and didn't. What has to be done to read the MPQs isn't exactly opening an exe in w32dasm and reading through assembly -.-

    Also, if Blizzard didn't intend some of the info found on this site to be known, they wouldn't actively link things like the speed calculator on the Arreat Summit.

    EDIT:
    That said, it is a valid point that has crossed my mind before, but knowing how the game works helps you play the game better. Manipulating how the game works is what I would consider cheating.
     
  4. Baranor

    Baranor IncGamers Member

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    Yup, I think that sums it up. Its the difference between knowledge and manipulation that does it.
     
  5. det

    det IncGamers Member

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    Yeah, agreed.

    Were else would you draw the line? If MH and reading up on info is the same, then bots and trigger hacks are the next logical step where a user of these "tricks" can claim we are as bad as he is.

    BTW: Every Magazine posts cheat and console commands these day - mosty they get the info directly from the programmers. I believe Diablo is one of the few games that does not have this kind of cheat access. I always found "GOD" modes incredibly sad to use. It means the game is programmed in such a crap way that most people need a code to complete it? Pathetic.
     
  6. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ IncGamers Member

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    Idkfa
    Iddt
     
  7. det

    det IncGamers Member

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    say what???????? :scratch:
     
  8. Baranor

    Baranor IncGamers Member

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    *points BFG at Det and hits Ctrl*

    Sucker!


    Find yourself a copy of Doom 1 and type them codes for IIRC immortality and all weapons. OR was it all weapons and full ammo?

    edit: idkfa was weaponry for sure!
     
  9. det

    det IncGamers Member

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    :lol:

    My point exactly...never needed 'dem codes.
     
  10. STINGER

    STINGER IncGamers Member

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    Researching what is available about something you wish to know is not cheating, it is simply preperation.

    In sports the study film and tendancies in order to prepare for the game. In this game some people study to code which is not illegal nore blocked in order to be better prepared for the game.

    Twinking, is of course not "pure game" persay, but it is not blocked by Blizz and is not stated as ilegal. Trading is encouraged and made possible thus trading items from character to character is perfectly legit and doesnt matter who owns what.

    If you can do most anything in this game without additional programs than its legit.

    Things to point at as "legit" regardless of how "correct" it may be or the original intentions of Blizz.

    10 sec hostile WP.......if you can get around it without a hack than its legit, but it is alsoconsidered bug exploite and many people frown on it. Although I personally hate PK in general I find no difference in the one who waits 10 seconds than the one that doesnt other than I have more respect for those who try and play as the game is intended.

    ETH bug in 1.09.....highly used, not a hack and supplied by the game.
    Mastery bugs.....exploited too many times to count although not that you could so "no I wont exploite this" unless you just never played a Barb or Sin.

    Guided Arrow bouncing 100 times thru a target was also a bug.......

    Anything you do to avoid questing Act 2 or 3 without assembling staff or flail.

    Getting WPS for others, leeching quests, askign for high lvl help...etc, if you do any of this then you exploit the game to an extent.

    There is only one true way to not cheat this game and that is to play untwinked from start to finish and not skipping quests. Now how many of you good people do this? I will tel you I do it a bit more than 1/2 the time depending on my goal of the character. Some have all quests and WPS and earned them, some that i quested have ended up skipping a few things due to the goals of the rest of the party in which I went back and did later.

    I dont rush my characters, I play them thru the game. Sure they are all not fully quested 100% but most quested alot and soloed Ancients at all lvls, but even with all of that said, I cheated/exploited the game to an extent, but I didnt use one program/hack to allow mme to do anything or avoid anything thus it is all "legit".

    I use to use Map Hack as many of you know. Well about a year ago I realized that I just wasnt dieing. I could avoid or be prepared for things and avoid death. I realized that this game was just too easy with this cruch so I gave it up. Since then I enjoy this game without knowing what is coming. There ar emany things I love and sorely miss that MH gave me that personally I would love to see available in the game but I wont go back to it. I dont die now without using MH, and I find all that one needs in due time also.

    i dont have an issue with those that MH, but please dont run around calling people noobs or considering yourslef 1337 if you use it as you arent. You are simply a decent player using a cruch and you will never be a great player while you still use it.

    I see tons of people every day that consider themselves top players that use dupes, MH, and all that illegit stuff. It is actually sickening to see thier text while they do it. I only know of a few people that have placed high on the ladder without MH or other hacks like duped runs or pindlebotted items. Most of them arent in the top 50 or 100, or even 200 but they are the reall top players of this game as they did it right. They also dont leech, they do what they can to contridute to the killing. They have no problem walking to the Throne at lvl 93+ because they know that it is dangerous for an ill prepared character and without MH or even a good character for that matter.

    The "great players" set themsleves apart from the rest and they dont spout off "i am great" they just are great and play the game, kick its butt and have fun.

    The best of the best dont toote thier own horn and they dont use hacks and they dont use dupes or any other illegit means. So all you that use these need to just recignize that you arent the best and never will be until you give those up and do it the right way!

    Stinger rant of th day brought to you by Archway, Archway cookies the company that brought you thick arse soft batch sugar cookies and those freaking cookies with fruty stuf in the middle. When your mom says cookies, you think Archway!

    Now back to your regularly scheduled program!
     
  11. Unholy_VI

    Unholy_VI IncGamers Member

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    Interesting ideas from all.

    I especially like the poker analogy. Good stuff!
     
  12. evils

    evils IncGamers Member

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    you forgot about iddqd :)

    //Johnny
     
  13. Leper

    Leper IncGamers Member

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    A while ago me and some others were having a bit of a discussion about people using netstat to find specific servers and sell sojs for DC.

    I was convinced this was clearly cheating because it was using a 3rd party program to give you a distinct advantage in the game, but then it was pointed out that using these forums was in some respects using a 3rd party program to gain information out about the game which you couldn't normally be able to obtain, giving you a clear advantage. So I was left unsure about what cheating really meant, which is kind of what this thread is addressing.

    Just thought that was kind of relevent.

    Leper
     
  14. STINGER

    STINGER IncGamers Member

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    Using Netstat and getting the server and then finding that server is a whole new matter as it is pure luck still, but I have heard of a prog that will do that for you.......that is cheating!

    Discussing and researching is not cheating.........it may "cheat your expierence" or help you avoid major mistakes, but reading a road map is also a way to avoid major mistakes.

    Never confuse reasearching, studying or training as cheating. These things are what make people exceed. Now hacking, performance enhancing drugs, breaking peopels legs so they cant compete is cheating..........please dont confuse these things.
     
  15. Stimm

    Stimm IncGamers Member

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    The argument ive always used when people think using netstat is cheating is this. In my opinion a 3rd party program is something that you must download netstat comes on every computer operating system in 1 form or another.

    Ive always been curious as to how this was figured out. How did someone comeabout figuring out games were ip based and the world event occured across an ip but not a realm etc
     
  16. CoonerTheRed

    CoonerTheRed IncGamers Member

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    just playing devil's advocate, as im rather anti-mh, but you could argue that, ignoring the chicken part, maphack is just another way of getting more information, preparing for the game. It in no way manipulates the game, it simply makes information about the game available to you (much like the forums). I mean, is there really a big difference between reading the mpq files and reading the information sent from bnet about the current map and monsters on that map?

    Personally I think cheating is like any other sense of "morality." I have found my line, one I am comfortable walking, and I avoid straying too far from it. I tend to look down on those who walk to far away from my line (in either direction). I try to avoid judging them, but in a sense, I do. This is no different from obeying the law (aka blizzard's decisions) in real life. I would not steal something, or assault someone, and I look down on those who do. But, I have imbibed alcohol before I was 21, I drive too fast, and I still have an outstanding parking ticket that I refuse to pay because I think it was not clearly marked, despite what any judge may find.

    It simply comes down to a personal decision, one that will, and should, be constantly evaluated and reevaluated by yourself and those around you.

    edit: nice thread all, it's been a while since i've seen a nice, well-thought out series of posts on cheating.
     
  17. squigipapa

    squigipapa IncGamers Member

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    If everyone bought the game, put the cd in and played the game. Which is the only thing blizzard intended people to do, then we would not know the lvl 85 areas, we would not know a whole boat load of other information that we know.

    Stinger: you say that useing netstat to check your IP is not cheating, I totally agree, but how exactly can you draw the line on that? I'm using linux, running vmware, so lets say I use netstat here, lets say I get sick of typeing 'netstat' so I write a little script called 'n', lets say I write a little script that runs netstat and grep's for a certian ip and if it dosen't find it, it cuts of the connection, I mean it's something that I can do manually from the command line, I just put thoes commands in a script instead..

    I'm not disagreeing with you or anything, just kinda trying to think of how and where a line can be drawn. typeing commands = not cheating, typeing commands in a script = ??, compileing script to bin file that does it == ?? I think the whole 'finding D clone thing' is a little different, cause you could write a program that checks ip's and disconnects and dosen't modify the game or game code in any way, as long as the creation of the game is done manually within the game, if your program creates the d2 game then you've definitly wandered into the cheating realm..

    ok, I'm rambeling .. :)
     
  18. Spero

    Spero IncGamers Member

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    In my opinion, using netstat to find a game where DC will spawn is cheating. It's exactly the same to me as using maphack or chicken or any other cheat. However, it's only a game! So, morally I would have no problem with it.

    The only time morals come into play for me is when other people might get hurt/beaten by the hack (trigger pk, chicken use while dueling).

    It's similar to some real life rules regarding things such as speed limits and cross walks. I think speed limits are important to follow in certain situations, because someone could get hurt if they are disobeyed. However, I often drive slightly over the speed limit, because my morals don't preclude it. As long as I believe that I am not posing a danger to myself or others, I have no problem. Also, I will jaywalk after looking to see that it's clear. My morals aren't a perfect copy of the law.

    Blizzard's TOU? Never read it, don't care.
     
  19. STINGER

    STINGER IncGamers Member

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    MH doesnt really give you information about the game or how to build, it shows you exaclty how to avoid death, the quickest way to a place where all the shrines are and what they are. When you move forward and 2-3 screens away you can see the full mods of a boss it is easy to take a turn and they never see you. Sorry, but this isnt "research" these is just manipulation.

    It is possbile with MH to avoid all dangers. Me or anyone sitting and telling you that there are boss glaoms in there over and over isnt going to make you avoid that danger. You may prepare for it better, but you wont be able to avoid it.

    imagine a Trapper for instance with Telport and MapHack......tele, tele, tele....MH shows A Boss or Champs with LiMsFECE over its head.......she stops short, tosses out a Cloak of Shadows, maybe places Shadow strategically and teles on thru like there was nothing there.

    Now that........LiMsFECE is just as it reads......Light immune, Multi Shot, Fire Enchant, Cold Enchant and getting hit by that pack of boss/minions all at once has killed several sorc and can kill or hurt badly many well built characters, but having MH allowed them to totally avoid this danger.

    Reading mods on your screen takes time........reading them when they arent moving and 2-3 screens away is way too easy.

    Teleporting straight to Durance 3 instead of doing the whole map is a big advantage.

    MH tells you EVERYTHING to an extent.

    We can talk all day about what can spawn in there and prepare you for possibilities, but we cant tell you what is going to be there on the next tele, or around the next corner.
     
  20. CoonerTheRed

    CoonerTheRed IncGamers Member

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    ah, but the devil's advocate in me would say that knowing the gloams can go through my life in 2 seconds flat, and knowing that gloams are common in ws 3 isn't really that different from knowing that there are gloams around the corner. The fact is, it's still just more information. Personally, the knowledge that the council can be very dangerous as they can spawn FE/LE and kill you very quickly in nm is just as useful as the absolute knowledge that there is a FE/LE councilmember hanging out by Khalim's orb, I would treat both situations the same way.

    In no way does mh (sans chicken, or maybe more optionals, i have no clue as i don't have it) manipulate the game. It DOES, however, change the way you play the game, which is the point Stinger makes. However, I argue that the info here changes the way you play the game in the exact same way.


    I find this really amusing, Stinger arguing anti-mh and me pro-mh, after the conversation in the scd game the other week :lol:

    edit: in practice, I completely agree with Stinger. However, my point is just that using the forums and mh are just extensions of the same idea- gaining information about the game to use for your advantage. Oh, and cause i like a good debate once in a while :D
     

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