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Are they killing off paragon?

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by In the name of Zod, Nov 6, 2016.

  1. In the name of Zod

    In the name of Zod Diabloii.Net Member

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    Its my understanding that the challenge rifts (CR?) are paragon neutral. Would this indicate that there is a shift away from paragon at Blizzard?

    Paragon basically creates two classes of players: 1. The upper class that find everything and everything superfast and 2. the lower class that leave the game in frustration usually not knowing what it was that they didn't like about the game.

    It really doesn't require too much math to work out that roughly 250 paragon points equals an itemslot. Many of us know paragon is the problem, for example: why did they cap paragon when it was new? When they took the cap off paragon it seems like one of the worst thoughts and actions they've made while patching this game.

    Didn't anyone else feel rejected when they didn't get a special pet like the lucky few that bought a special version of the game. Seems Blizzard have become masters of separating players, making some feel more special than others. But what does this really achieve for blizzard?
     
  2. Mage Slayer

    Mage Slayer Diabloii.Net Member

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    I still find it hard to understand why people get so upset at the concept that playing more makes your character more powerful. I don't remember being able to get to the top of the ladder in D2 playing an hour a week.
     
  3. Valeli

    Valeli Diabloii.Net Member

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    I find the whole special pets and weird wings in D3 to be just silly.... so no, I've never been upset about lacking any of them. I'm a bit upset they're in a game that I feel should have had a (slightly, at least) more serious tone. But that's not new, a lot of things about D3's tone disappointed me. Otherwise, whatever.

    As far as paragon stuff, I'm with Mage Slayer. What's wrong with having your character better if you play it more? I only see this as an issue if it ends up creating characters so powerful they break the game, or ends up /completely/ "gating" content to the majority of players who haven't sunk 3k hours into the game. Because gating actual content behind a bar that high isn't cool. I don't think either of these things happened in D3 though (unless, maybe, you count the highest tiers of rifts as unique content rather the just a harder version of already available content).

    I think the whole Rift end-game was just poorly designed. Maybe that's only subjective preference, but I don't really enjoy it very much. I guess that's a bit hypocritical of me though, as I was ok with running the same areas in D2 to try and get new items and, really, that's certainly not any more innovative than running the same rifts to get items.

    The biggest difference between D2 and Rifts, I think, is that in D2 I felt like I was running things in order to gear myself up for a goal (generally, the goal being to beat the game on HC). In D3, the actual game was completely trivial though. I had beaten it way before I'd started worrying about rifts. So the goal transferred from "beat the game" to "see if you can do a rift one level higher" and that one level higher thing failed to hook me.

    I'm sorry, I think I've veered a bit of Paragon Points now. But yeah - I don't see them as having been a real issue.
     
  4. In the name of Zod

    In the name of Zod Diabloii.Net Member

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    Well, once you lose interest in GR the game is over. After a while you'll realise all you do is farm para points to do a higher GR. So where is the personal achievement? That's not progress, that is working for 2c/day. I'm quite sure there are many slaves in the world who probably love their masters more than most people like blizzard.

    It's frustrating seeing people defend things that are worse than excrement and treating it like gold. Paragon means 'NO DECISION MAKING' that's why its in the game. Gawd. You don't have to think, its just a poker machine with a joystick rather than buttons and you're acting like its a game. True it is gaming but only because someone has twisting gambling into games.

    You spend your time to get paragon points, which you get less and less of the more you play btw, no decision making, always the same GR grind, nothing unique, less progress each return to the game, less and less value to gear the higher you climb. How is this good? Explain that please someone.
     
  5. Mage Slayer

    Mage Slayer Diabloii.Net Member

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    I'm gonna ignore some of those idiotic and tasteless comparisons.

    Look, every ARPG reaches a point where you realistically aren't going to get better gear anymore. If you have a level cap, then that means you can no longer make that character/build more powerful. And towards the end of reaching that point, what upgrades you do get will come very slowly, you may well go whole play sessions without any progress whatsoever.

    In D3, with infinite paragon, you can, if you choose, continue to level and gain power after you've perfected your gear. And while you're still hunting for that last ancient item with perfect rolls, you know that even if it doesn't drop this time, you've made some progress on your paragon level. You complain about "twisting gambling into games" but item drop RNG is gambling, consistently gaining experience is not. That's largely the point of it!

    In either case, at some point you get bored and either try another character/build, or leave the game for a while and do something else. The difference is D3 doesn't give you an arbitrary cut off point, you decide when you're done leveling.

    You complain about GR grind, nothing unique - but at least GRs use randomised content. You prefer D2 style boss running? That's less repetitive and more unique to you? PoE's ability to modify maps is very cool (though you have a limited number of maps of the highest level) and I'd love something like that in D3, but I still have fun without it.

    Of course it's harder to make progress once your character has already become very powerful. The only other options are infinite, spiralling power creep or an arbitrary cutoff point. You say there are no decisions, but here's one for you. You decide when to stop. The game doesn't force you. Personally, I complete the season journey and that's usually enough for me. Then I take a little break, come back next season and do a different class or two.

    I know for people who are really into competition that feeling the need to keep up with other player's paragon is frustrating, and I do think there are ways Blizzard could make a fairer competitive system without scrapping paragon progression entirely. Challenge Rifts are a step in the right direction. But I've never placed on a leaderboard and I couldn't care less if ever do. I just like gearing up a build, gaining some power, and when the progress becomes too slow for me, I stop. In 2016 I don't need or want a single game to consume all my free time. There are loads of other games. I have other hobbies.

    And if you don't enjoy that, that's fine. The game can't be for everyone, no matter what they do. But please have the common courtesy to accept that some people do enjoy it. You may find people defending the game frustrating, but it's not hard to see why someone would defend a game they are still enjoying. It's much harder to see why someone needs to attack a game they apparently haven't enjoyed in years, if ever.
     
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  6. fsj

    fsj Diabloii.Net Member

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    I'm not upset at the concept of character development at all, personally. That is the core of an ARPG right, developing your character through gaining power?

    For me, it's the avenues in which they do it. What I loved about D2 was the progression was in the short, medium and long term acquired through items as well as building skills via levelling in the short to medium term. Now going from that system, to one where I essentially have all my gear (albeit not perfect rolls) and every skill in my arsenal within a week of a new season, feels wrong to me.

    The only way for me to then progress is paragon. This is where the season dies out for me quickly. I'm not a competitive player. Climbing rifts does nothing at all for me. I understand a whole swathe of D3 players love that rift push and I'm glad they can find that sort of thing exciting. Getting 0.1% power gains per rift through paragon just doesn't do it for me at all.

    When I hit a stale patch in D2, there's still a chance that a high rune or a super rare item is going to drop at any point that may dramatically alter my character's power. If not directly, then via a trade. Perhaps even an incentive to level an alt so that they can use that item. This process was possible right up to the point you're level 99, not that I would get that far due to the time needed to go from 95-99. THAT massively rare drop could be 1 mob kill or boss run away and it would always be exciting to me.

    I'm not trying to say which is better or worse, simply why I find the paragon system so unsatisfying along with character development in D3, compared to D2.
     
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  7. Diogenes_The_Dog

    Diogenes_The_Dog Diabloii.Net Member

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    This is how reality works. You get what you put in. Typically, those who put in more also get more. Going further, those who get stuff for free seem to grow unsatisfied and even depressed depending on what exactly is at stake.

    Naturally, this tenant of reality will separate people into two general categories that encompass a spectrum with one end representing maximum effort and the other end representing zero effort. Unfortunately, some game designers and governments have taken it upon themselves to undermine this fundamental tenant by making everyone's output equal or as close to equal as possible despite their unequal inputs. These types of games designers and governments bore me.
     
  8. _TOP_Commander

    _TOP_Commander Diabloii.Net Member

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    I like that the more time and effort you put into a game like Diablo, the more powerful and advanced your character gets.

    However, I would prefer for "Paragon" levels to not exist at all. I would much more enjoy a D2 style Leveling-scheme like 1-99. I prefer the "Journey" to be a major part of the "end-game". Once that journey comes to an end (AKA you getting to level 95+) you are powerful and efficient enough to do fast MF runs to be able to find Ultra-Rare items and trade and become in-game rich. Alternatively you can do PVP etc.
     
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