Anything Goes D2 Lounge!

art_vandelay

Diabloii.Net Member
@Luhkoh This is all to be taken with a grain of salt because:
  • I did at least a thousand runs with Pit Singer (without ever rolling a good map and computing adjeff, this was something I did pretty much on the side without any real focus for most of it)
  • I only played Pitzerker for a couple of hours.
So it might very well be that I could grow to like the Zerker if I gave him more time but there's some big differences:
  1. Singer can get away without any weapon swap. Yes, one could do a prebuff for higher BO, but...
  2. Singer is basically immortal. You don't need to worry about dying at all. Most annoying thing is Mana Burn and that can be worked with Potions and putting points into Energy (really!). No Str or Dex needed beyond the requirements of Enigma and Wizardspike and I already convinced myself that Suicide Branch is better anyway if you can make up the Mana and Resists on your MF charms.
  3. Charms are a lot more free. You can run with plain MF charms and do pretty good. Now go to Fabian's pitzerker guide and look at his charms. (Pretty sick: 3/20/7's are super rare. Just 'Fine SC of good luck' has a 1 in 3500 chance in LK. Good luck is what you'll need to get a perfect roll on the damage and the MF :D)
  4. Skill point distribution is a lot more relaxed because your Warcry damage is secondary to your mercs damage. I'm pretty sure one can be very minimalistic on points to BO because of the sheer amount of Vit you can have with him.
  5. Gear is generally very easy to accumulate, basically everything you need can drop from Mephisto or LK. Have Enigma + at least 63% fcr? -> good to go! (exaggerating, but it wouldn't be unthinkable...). Also it's one of those builds where you can just slowly strip away any piece of gear that's not essential and replace it with MF stuff. I once had a 37% MF ring and I don't think it would have seen much use on any other character! On a Zerker you would have to look for a Nagelring with good AR roll, here any 30MF+ ring will do just fine.
  6. 6 Ist PB? No need for that insanity! In all fairness though, that's entirely Blizzard's mistake for making the WSM calculation for Zerk weird.
In any case you should go and read Griphhon's posts (I think there are two, plus some in the Hall of Records) on the singer as well as Fabian's guide linked in point 3.

Also another thing to consider: I won't put a Cham in a Shako if I have a perfectly fine 2os 2/20 Assa Tiara :D

---

@Gripphon On Pit Singer: Did you ever find a definitve answer for Switch vs. no Switch on Singer?
 

Luhkoh

Diabloii.Net Member
@art_vandelay Excellent stuff. And no worries, I have read fabians and gripps zerker guide many times as well as gripps singer comparison from back when. I was just curious as to your thoughts since to me a singer sounded (with no experience on my part) like the same as zerk, except instead of swapping to a sword and hitting a boss, you spam warcry while watching your merc take on the boss, which sounded less fun. However you bring up some excellent points, so I was glad to hear your perspective! And while I was hoping to make both eventually anyways, you might get me to make a singer sooner rather than later :) Near the end of gripps singer comparison (just reread it after asking you that question :p) he says he decided swap wasn't worth it. Not sure if that had changed since though.

Sidenote: on zerker, I never see anyone recommend gull dagger as budget replacement for 6ist pb. I plan to go that route for sure when I first set one up.
 

art_vandelay

Diabloii.Net Member
Your secondary weapon influences your Zerk speed so you need something that matches the PB, I'm sure Fabian took that into account when not recommending Gull .

Also just because two weapons have the same WSM doesn't mean they have the same speed for a character as that depends on WSM, Skill used and animation used (which differs for all character+weapon combos basically)

EDIT: Just checked out of curiosity: Apparently you can reach 9fpa with PB/Dagger combo. Is the german weapon speed calculator right on this?
 
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Luhkoh

Diabloii.Net Member
@art_vandelay unless the attack speed calculator is wrong, gull is indeed an option. I got the idea from a previous member here who used it a lot for his zerker. And without real testing, it appeared to work as german speed calc says. So I thought it was something that would have been nice in Fabian's guide, but i didn't think he was trying to be comprehensive with his budget setup recommendations.

The other fun budget option I never saw recommended is IK helm/boots, though dbrunski seems to have popularized it a little. Shako and war travs is nicer for the life and mana ofc, but the 2 piece IK works well. And lastly, if you have no grief, I think wielding oath 2 handed would actually work well. Ofc you lose out on a lot of mf, but I think that would not be worth as much as the extra dmg. And again I got most all of this from drmalawi and his pindle zerker video. I plan to try out some of the budget setups eventually though!
 
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art_vandelay

Diabloii.Net Member
@Luhkoh So i checked PB+CS and PB+MilitaryPick to see wether the calc is right. It tells me both combos reach 9fpa zerk (at 19 and 26 IAS respectively). At this point I think it's fair to say that the calc is probably wrong on that front. The PB+PB combo outputs 42IAS for 9fpa zerk which is the same as in Fabian's guide, so that number is correct at least.

As for Oath vs. Grief: I wouldn't ponder that too much, getting a Lo for Grief isn't too much of a hassle! Of course I don't know what RFL gave you so far but I cubed 6 Gul, a Vex and an Ohm to make Fortitude before the round began. I can't say that I miss those runes, even though I'm still relatively rune poor. One CtA/HotO is all you need basically and then it's all luxury RWs or cubing up to Lo ;)

Are those youtube channels you mention any good? I usually steer clear of youtube tutorials because in a lot of instances they simply don't have the quality of a guide you would find on a site like this and tend to have clickbaity titles/thumbnails.
I liked the exposition of the Pindle/Snapchip stuff you linked, I forgot who did that video. That was an actually watchable youtube video with good information and no filler :)
 

Luhkoh

Diabloii.Net Member
@art_vandelay Why does that make you think the calculator is wrong? IIRC it has some issues with frenzy which is really really wonky anyways, but is correct for the other barb skills. And like I said, on video it seemed like it was attacking at 9fpa (but obviously I probably wouldnt be able to tell if it was 10 or something).

As for oath vs grief, I will reveal nothing about qualifiers, but I'm still doing 1:15 runs on p1... so that might tell you something :p But you're right I feel sure I'll have a grief by the time i get around to messing with this, but I enjoy theorycrafting budget builds quite a bit.

As far as youtube goes, I like to have it on in the background when farming quite often, so I'll watch some guys who stream like mrllama, dbrunski, and brandon d2sp. If it's info/insight you're looking for rather than just entertainment, then I don't think any of the youtube build guides are worth watching as compared to stuff here on the forum. Except for malawiglenn, who is a former member here (name on here is drmalawi) who I still keep up with on his youtube and he had some builds (the pindle zerker I keep mentioning is HERE) that I liked and hadn't seen something the same or better here. He also has a "course" on mf in diablo 2 which i loved HERE. And finally he had a summary from his experience in the 2018 RFL HERE that got me pumped for this one.
 

Luhkoh

Diabloii.Net Member
@art_vandelay I see what you're saying now on the speed calc. It shows crystal sword in offhand as faster than phaseblade, which is obviously wrong. This is disappointing. I thought it was correct for zerk. And its really tough to calc yourself too -.-

Edit: so I'd like to know what ias is needed with gull in offhand (-20 wsm) to reach 9fpa zerk. Anyone know how to calc zerk speed? I don't see an amazon basin page on it.
 
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art_vandelay

Diabloii.Net Member
@Luhkoh Malawi seems to know what he's talking about all right! Believe it or not but a while ago I looked into what MrLlama had to say on game mechanics and I picked up a (potentially valuable) piece of information that I've never seen here before. Pretty weird, everything's here usually :D

Frenzy is certainly weird. As far as I can tell it was even figured out by Titanseal (with one consequence being that you should always equip the weapon with the lower WSM in the right hand slot (over the boots)) and he even wrote a calculator for it. But it's lost to time, can't find it.

@onderduiker You once had a discussion at the AB about Frenzy with Titanseal and some others. He created a tool to find Frenzy Breakpoints based on that and posted it somewhere but the links are all dead. Do you still have this?

As far as that discussion goes it seems he never implemented it into the speed calc.
 
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Gripphon

Diabloii.Net Member
@Gripphon On Pit Singer: Did you ever find a definitve answer for Switch vs. no Switch on Singer?
I don't as I didn't explore singer after that. Something that helps merc kill stone skin boss faster, however apart from using Beast + 6x Ist sword I didn't really find anything else, and that option is kinda expensive with very low benefit.
 

art_vandelay

Diabloii.Net Member
@Gripphon How about the usual setup (no switch) but with Spellsteel (2h axe) added to switch. It has 30 charges of lvl 3 Decrepify. That cancels out the Stone Skin mod and assuming 8 bosses per run that's roughly 2 Stone skin bosses per run. So the charges would last for about 15 runs before they needed a 'refill'. Not a great solution but I think switching to Decrep for those bosses, casting it and then going back to main switch would not be too uncomfortable compared to the alternative. (And Holy Freeze/Stone Skin bosses would still be too slow, but they are rare anyway)

I also looked at 'on attack' CtCs but except for Frozen Orb they are all too weak and FO won't help with the Skeletons which are the toughest Stone Skin bosses :confused:
 

Gripphon

Diabloii.Net Member
@art_vandelay
I think your solution is brilliant. Good thinking there. Player can have one more in stash to pick up once this uses charges to not need repair as often. Plus it's not needed for all stoneskin bosses, only on skeletons and those badass women. Devilkins and archers are usually weak.

EDIT
Only downside to it is it will require player to play singer actively while idea of singer is to escape the active play of the berserker. :D
 
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Gripphon

Diabloii.Net Member
The other fun budget option I never saw recommended is IK helm/boots
I consider to use IK helm because Shako looks ugly on a barb. No other reason haha. Plus it would offer 15% more MF than Shako does at expense of 2 non warcry skills and life/mana. If I do play him again, I really don't want him to look like a thief with Shako. I'd rather lower MF and use Arreat or whatever to have barb who looks like a beast.
 

art_vandelay

Diabloii.Net Member
@Gripphon At least for me it felt that (with 1.13 eth Insight) the Stone Skin Skeletons could take nearly 10s, so even with a slow playstyle you'll notice the fact that they're not taking proper damage long before they're actually dead.
I think I will try this out in the coming MFO!

Did you even know this item existed? And now it could be the next Steelshade :D Rescued from the heap of crap uniques!
 

NanoMist

Diabloii.Net Member
@art_vandelay I see what you're saying now on the speed calc. It shows crystal sword in offhand as faster than phaseblade, which is obviously wrong. This is disappointing. I thought it was correct for zerk. And its really tough to calc yourself too -.-

Edit: so I'd like to know what ias is needed with gull in offhand (-20 wsm) to reach 9fpa zerk. Anyone know how to calc zerk speed? I don't see an amazon basin page on it.
On the calculator, make sure the Primary Weapon is selected as the left weapon slot. By default, the Secondary Weapon is left weapon slot and causes the calculator to factor in WSM bug. This is why the slower weapon shows a faster attack speed. I spent the 2018 MFO with a 10 FPA Zerk due to this calculator quirk.

For anyone who's curious, here's a test to see WSM bug ingame and to confirm the attack speed calculator results. First equip something slow on the left (Alibaba for example) and Grief PB on the right. Make sure the Grief doesn't depend on Alibaba's dex to be equipped. Weapon swap will automatically make left weapon slot the Primary Weapon. You'll get a slow swinging Alibaba with Berserk. Now pick up Alibaba and place it back into left weapon slot. Now you'll have a 9 FPA Berserk with Grief, just as the calculator says. Do weapon swap twice and you'll be back to the slow Alibaba. Grief does not have any +strength or +dexterity, so there is no opportunity to auto WSM bug the left weapon slot to always be Secondary Weapon even after a weapon swap.

Calculator is showing 52 IAS total to reach 9 FPA with PB + Dagger.
 

Fruit

Diabloii.Net Member
Have you also made sure there are no display bugs going on? You don't want to blindly trust your eyes in Diablo II. :cool:

Just because something shows to be 9 frames, does not mean it is 9 frames. This game has seen a lot of display bugs, and even 1.14 still has quite a few of them, including with (attack) animations. Just a warning, man!
 

PhineasB

Diabloii.Net Member
Here is javazon running Baal by Frozzzen. He uses Enigma, but important is to see how damage output works to her advantage.

1:51 Baal run with javazon
Catching up on this thread. @Gripphon do you happen to know gear Frozzzen was using? It looks like Tower Shield type so not Monarch. My untwinked 99er javazon has only 2 skillers, but I'm definitely hoping to maximize other items for XP efficiency for 96-98. Thanks for any links or info you can provide!
 

ffs

Diabloii.Net Member
He posted the gear somewhere here, IIRC it was a blue 4-facet Aegis, TStroke and HLW for 55 IAS, teleporting with 68 FCR. Don’t think he normally ran with it, just for getting the fastest times. Reminds me I have to take a shot at it again. ;)
 

Jamie

Diabloii.Net Member
Was looking around but couldn't find the answer I was looking for and my internet is worse than the dial up I had 15 years ago and where I live, my phone service is almost non existent. It is literally a nightmare as far as the internet goes. Figured this would be the fastest way to find good info.....

What players setting to people run Pits at? I am asking because I have a level 86 Frenzy Baba with eDeath CS, eOath Conquest Sword and importantly an Enigma. I have messed around with the player settings in Pits, but would like to know what people have found to be most efficient and what to look for in a map.

I know I have seen a page and guide with all of this information and am pretty sure it was part of this forum, but I couldn't find it and my internet is continuously cutting out and making it near impossible to search for things.

If someone could help answer my questions about the best player settings for different situations and goals and what to look for in my map OR/AND send me a link to the Pits guide that i know exists, that would be very helpful. Thank you! Sorry that I have to ask questions that I know the answers are out there, my internet just won't stay connected for more than 10 seconds at a time, at the moment... ><
 
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