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Another PvP tournament! woah!

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by barren, May 11, 2005.

  1. barren

    barren IncGamers Member

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    Another PvP tournament! woah!

    Kabal's PvP tourney is winding down, so it's about time we have another. This time however the rules are gonna be a little different (but not by much, I promise).

    The start date is not yet set, I'm thinking in 2 weeks times, this is open to discussion so please tell me when its best for you and I'll try and accomodate as many people as possible. I'd like it to start the tournament on a weekend, so most of the duels can be cleared up straight away, then if people missed some they can organize games during the week.

    If there are any prizes in this tournament, I will not participate. Feel free to donate to the prize pool by emailing them to me at [email protected]. That's different from my hotmail account, so whatch out! I never check my hotmail account.

    Tournament Format:

    Round robin best of 5 (first to reach 3 wins) same as kabal's tournament. Top 16 people with the most wins move on to the elimination round. Elimination round will start a week after the round robin so this tournament should be done fairly fast, 2 weeks tops. The top 16 will be seeded completely by random and games will be best of 7 (first to reach 5 wins).

    Onto the stickiest part of any pvp event - the rules.

    I'm going to use a combination of the sp rules and clan honor rules, they're almost the same to start with anyway. If you haven't heard of clan honor, it's an organization started by Garbad_the_weak and they have their very own forum here at diabloii.net. It was designed to keep all the classes as fair as possible, while encouraging as much variety as possible and to that extent they've suceeded far better then any other rule set to date.

    First here's the rules specific to this tournament:

    *You can use a stash to swap gear in between duels, however, once the tournament starts you cannot mule on/off gear until the top 16 elimination. *You must use the same character during round robin, no switching.
    *when the top 16 starts you can play with a different character and swap as much gear as you want. As soon as elimination starts however your items and character are locked, you can no longer change anything.
    *Only 1 high rune per participant, a high rune includes vex and up, sorry EBOTD users :( You have my sympathy :lol: You can whine all you want about this ruling, this'll cut down on cheating and make things more fair in general.

    Finally, here's the rest of the rules straight from clan honor, I've modified them slightly to include some SP rules that everyone around here holds sacred such as:
    *Participants can duel outside of blood moor if they wish.
    *I've banned the use of marrowalks on necromancers who use bone spear/spirit. I don't think the sp forum is ready for full powered necros :)
    *Concentrate + holy hammer at the same time, the sp forum doesn't like hammerdins even though they're very beatable even by melee characters, so they're basically still nerfed beyond use.
    *You cannot recast Bone armor or cyclone armor once the duel starts

    You can see the original clan honor rules here. They might seem long, but they're really not because they're divided up into 3 parts, long range, medium range and melee so you only need to read the rules that apply to your character. Don't worry this is all explained if you're confused, read on:

    DUELING RULES

    “Legit Rulesâ€
    These rules are intended to prevent exploitations of the game.

    * NO DUPES of ANY kind, including 3/20/20, 40/15, and classic dupes. For a list of known dupes see the CH website.
    * NO HACKS of ANY kind. This includes maphack while dueling, hacked items, etc.
    * No .08 items

    “Manner Rulesâ€
    These rules are intended to prevent annoying behavior and to organize the duels.

    * Duels are held in Nightmare on the Blood Moor unless both participants agree to dueling somewhere else.
    * No potions, shrines, wells, mercs, or leaving the chosen dueling area.
    * No Slow -- including Holy Freeze, slow missle, Decrepify, and slow target % items (such as clegs).
    * No intentional lagging or grossly defensive play (such as avoiding combat for a long time to regenerate your life).

    BALANCE RULES

    * NO TELEPORT. This includes charges on items, enigma, AND the sorceress skill. Dragon Flight IS allowed. Enigma can still be worn, but the teleport skill cannot be used.
    * NO use of any skill on CALL TO ARMS. Only barbarians may use BO, shout, or battle command. Barbarians may use CTA to boost their BO if they wish. (Note: MA sins are an exception to this rule and MAY use CTA).
    * Off Class Skills other than oak, bo, and teleport ARE allowed unless otherwise stated.
    * NO use of OAK SAGE unless you are a Druid.
    * NO use of BONE PRISON.
    * No POISON CHARMS are allowed to be used. Poison from skills IS allowed.
    * The following skills cannot be cast, either by % to cast or charges (items may be used if the charge/% is not used):

    a. Lower resist
    b. Decrepify
    c. Slow Missile
    d. Amplify damage
    e. Life Tap (this includes exile)

    Charges or % to cast of other skills MAY be used (including enchant).

    Runwalk/Resist Tiers

    Runwalk and max resists/absorb are all based off of attack range in CH. The basic principle is the easier it is for you to do massive damage at long range, the less runwalk and resists you are allowed. In the case of hybrids, the limit is based off of your LONGEST range attack.


    Please click here to see a listing of what common builds are in what tier. If you have any questions concerning this, reply to this thread.

    LONG RANGE DUELERS (Greater than 1 screen effective range)

    1. No +max resist items, no absorb other than 1 raven frost, waterwalks, and tgods.
    2. 90% runwalk max or 30% runwalk + any runwalk from a skill (vigor/bos) (8.24/8.6 yps).

    MID RANGE DUELERS (Effective range of more than melee, but less than 1 screen)

    1. 10% max resist per elemental max (85/85/85) or 1 absorb item per element
    2. 105% runwalk or 75% runwalk + any from a skill max (8.44/9.6 yps)

    MELEE RANGE DUELERS

    1. 90% max resist or 1 absorb item per element.
    2. 120% runwalk or 90% + any from a skill (8.64/9.84 yps)

    NOTES:

    * Max Posion resist is 85% resist for all classes. PLR is not capped.
    * rising sun is banned
    * Nightwing + snowclash may be worn on a cold sorc if she doesn’t use raven frost


    Class Specific Rules

    NECROMANCERS

    * Necros may not use the following skills in any form:

    i. BONE SPIRIT (in team duels)
    ii. Bone Prison
    iii. Amplify Damage
    iv. Decrepify
    v. Clay Golem

    * Necros MAY use Lower resist and Life tap (no other class can).
    * Marrowwalk cannot be worn on a Necromancer that uses Bone Spirit, or Bone Spear.

    PALADINS

    * Paladins may not use the following skills in any form:

    i. Holy Bolt
    ii. Holy Freeze

    * Concentrate and Blessed Hammer cannot be used at the same time
    * Paladins MAY aura stack
    * Paladin Resistance auras may NOT be used to exceed normal resist caps for your tier.
    * Paladins may have only 1 point base into Prayer (more from + skills is ok)

    No other classes have specific rules. All general rules still apply.

    NOTE: If the rules do not specifically forbid something, it is allowed. For example, Sins May use WW from chaos, paladins may aura stack, sorcs may shapeshift, any class may use widowmaker, etc. Variants are encouraged. If you have any questions about what rules apply to an idea you have, contact Barren, or discuss them in this thread.

    I'm a good php coder, so I can whip up some forms that'll allow people to register, report matches and scores via a webpage. If I can find a host (don't worry, I will) this will be a reality.
     
  2. kabal

    kabal IncGamers Member

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    Some of the range classifications are a bit wonky.

    Blade Fury, Charge, and DFlight are short range while ww is mid? How exactly does that work? Meteor and Blizzard belong in the same category too if you're basing this purely on the range at which these spells can be cast. Same thing goes for hydra and firewall/volcano/traps.
     
  3. barren

    barren IncGamers Member

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    You're taking the range thing too literal. Blade skills are weak as hell, which is why they're classified under melee. You can't even compare blizzard and meteor, lol, it's impossible to hit someone with a meteor in pvp which is why it's under a different tier then blizzard. Same goes with WW, it's no secret that it's better then every other melee skill so it gets stuck in tougher category. This has been tried and tested, give it a shot.
     
  4. FodderCannoned

    FodderCannoned IncGamers Member

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    while i wouldn't break the 2 high runes rule, I think that since this is a forum based on trust, that any gear that we find should be allowed. plus i think this should be put off for about a month or too, so that everyone who played in the first tourny has enough time to switch characters and get gear for there new characters
     
  5. kabal

    kabal IncGamers Member

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    Instead of range tiers then, wouldn't it be better just to tier the character builds themselves? The current classification implies that skills like volcano and FoH are more viable for PvP than ww, hammers, or wind skills, and I think we can agree that's not true.

    Edit: Btw there's a small typo that may cause confusion: best of 7 is first to 4 wins, not 5. ;)
     
  6. Liquid_Evil

    Liquid_Evil IncGamers Member

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    The tourney format is so similar to kab's format and soon (his hasn't even finished) that I'm not sure this tourney will see the same level of interest members expressed in joining his. I think this thread would have been better posted 2 weeks after kabal's concludes and with at least a slightly different format.

    I've hosted several of these tourneys and one thing I've learned is that complicated rules (or even large list that look complicated) turn people off from joining. Some of the stuff listed is unclear (to me at least), you can play with entirely different characters for the second portion of the tournament, why is that? Also, your rules seem to cater to non-melee characters, why the rune rule? Because Trappers don't need them to be good? ;)
     
  7. whomhead

    whomhead IncGamers Member

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    So... knockback is allowed? :eek: My thrower will pwn! ;)

    Also, you may want to wait at least three weeks to get this rolling due to a MFO happening in that same time range at "other places." [/mysterious]
     
  8. kabal

    kabal IncGamers Member

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    /me kills whommy's thrower in the face

    One more thing: if you're going to ban high runes in the interest of balance between poor and rich players you're going to have to ban a lot of other stuff too. As seen in farting bob's capture the flag thread, a lot of people have the mentality of "if I don't have it, then you can't use it either". Once you ban runes, people without godly charms will ask that charms be banned, people without elite uniques will ask that elite uniques be banned, and so on. Pretty soon all you'll have is a pair of low level naked barbs punching each other in the blood moor.

    The fact of the matter is that D2 is an RPG and item quality is meant to play a role in how successful a character can be in either PvM or PvP. If the players wanted to play a competitive game where items don't play a factor they'd be playing Starcraft or Counterstrike; the fact that none of the participants, even those who aren't wealthy, pushed for the uber items to be banned in my tourney shows that people are willing to live and die by the quality of their gear.
     
  9. barren

    barren IncGamers Member

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    Lots of questions, lemme answer them all as best I can:

    For starters, the tournament date is open for discussion, if everyone wants the tournament pushed back a month, no prob, it just gives me more time to prepare and organize everything.

    The tiered system works by range in general, but some ranged skills are pretty crappy (the blizz meteor example) so they got shuffled into another tier. It's confusing, which is why I have the link to check out specifically what skill belongs in what tier.

    @ FodderCannoned
    The limit on high runes sticks, not just because I have trust issues (I trust all you guys with ebotds) but it gives the people who aren't packing high runes a chance, while still allowing someone who has a zod, to use it. It's a ruling that helps people who have found high runes, and poorer players alike without picking 1 side too strongly over the other.

    @ liquid Evil
    The date is going to be moved back of course.
    These rules look tricky and tough, but they're not that bad. It addresses absolutely everything under the sun and keeps everything as fair as possible. Your concern about casters being too strong is completely unfounded. Look at kabal's tournament, I think I was the only caster in the top 16. No necro stood a chance, wind druids were a complete joke, and don't get me started about a sorc, lol. If you think 1 build over powers the other, switch sides and try a new character. I can assure you, it's just as tough on the other side of the fence. And yes, using these rules is just a ploy to abuse my cheap trapsin’s stealth and 3 p kite shield, I won’t even be competing in this tournament.

    @ necrolemming
    yes, the date will be pushed back
    Okay, I dare you to play a hammerdin without concentrate. 500 pvp damage with hammers requires some very specific gear leaving resistances, faster cast and other areas in your gear missing, it's simply not realistic. Even if you're packing god equipment and can cast them with a high fcr, hammers are still blocked %75. Worst of all, there's absolutely no room in your build for a back up skill because of the hammer synergies, leaving you with only hammers and lvl 1 charge. Either way, hammerdins are still nerfed, no need to worry, I have made concessions for the sp community.

    MA sins use martial arts, ie, tiger strick, pheonix strike etc. They’re very obsolete in 1.10 but these rules try to give them a fighting chance by letting them use CTA.

    Windies are naturally stronger against melee characters, because they don't stand a chance vs a caster, especially since you can't recast cyclone armor.
    It's a trade off, strong against melee, crap against casters so it balances out even with the use of GA. Really, how can you complain about windies when they can't use teleport from enigma? They're use is so limited people would only consider using them in an environment dominated by melee characters.

    TC87 stuff isn't a high lvl rune, you can use all the tc 87 stuff you want cause they aren't nearly as powerful as runewords. I'd pick an ohm over tyrael's might any day. Plus, you actually have a chance of finding tc 87 stuff, they're no where near the same rarity as a high rune.

    @whomhead
    Yes knockback is allowed. Rejoice, an amazon relying on bow skills stands a chance!

    Edit: typoes
     
  10. frosty

    frosty IncGamers Member

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    Just want to point out something.

    RoidRage used a sorc, slarti's pally is caster oriented and colony, Horobi and I used bone necros.
     
  11. barren

    barren IncGamers Member

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    Stop comparing high runes with uniques and charms. High runes are a thousand times rarer, you either have them or you don't, the difference between having them and not having them is astronomical when you bring runewords into the picture. I'm not banning high runes, just limiting them to 1 per character. Usuable charms are easy to trade for, craft and find. Same with all but a select few uniques that aren't even used for pvp anyway.

    @whomhead, sorry, yes, knockback will help your throw barb, and zons.
     
  12. barren

    barren IncGamers Member

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    Okay, bad example. Let me be blunt, had there been more experienced pvpers using melee builds none of you would have made it top 16. Fortunately, there's only so many sp pvpers here with good melee builds. To tell you the truth, any build could have made top 16 as long as there was a decent driver in the passenger seat because the competition isn't that tough, this is the sp forum, lots of us were pvping for the 1st time. My point is, casters sucked with Kabal's rules, and these rules fix that imbalance. If you're skeptical about these rules try them out before you judge; they've been tested for years and perfected by hundreds of players, not just myself.
     
  13. kabal

    kabal IncGamers Member

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    I hope you can see that the system is flawed. It puts bone necros (one of the best PvP characters) and fire druids (a novelty build) together in the same tier. Similarly, you're putting smiters (a legitimate PvP char) on the same level as zealots, frenziers, fury druids (all novelty builds suitable only for melee only duels).
    oned

    I suggest you look at the standings more carefully next time to avoid further foot in mouth statements like these. Colony, Horobi, and Frosty are bone necros, RoidRage is a sorc, and Snuva is a windy/fire hybrid. That's 5 characters that are undeniably casters along with lemming, skoolbus, and slarti who are V/T's and your trapper. Depending on your definition of a caster, there's 5-9 of them in the top 16.

    Hammers aren't blockable, and 500 pvp damage at 75% FCR with max resists and max block is very manageable. Furthermore, maxing BH and it's two synergies requires 60 points, leaving you with 30-40 points to use for prereqs and a secondary attack.

    You missed the point. The people without runes want runes banned (actually it's only you, but I digress) because they don't have them, and using the same logic people without TC 87's and godly charms will want those banned too. The issue isn't how rare they are to each other, it's that the average person doesn't have any of these things and doesn't have any reasonable means to get these things. If you ban one of them claiming fairness, you'd have to ban all of them to stay consistent.

    And uniques aren't nearly as powerful as runewords? Please tell me which runewords are better than Fathom and WF for a blizz sorc and bowazon respectively.
     
  14. Liquid_Evil

    Liquid_Evil IncGamers Member

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    Firstly, I don't think Hammerdins w/o Conc are subpar PvP chars in the slightest. In two seperate PvP tourneys I hosted, 2 Hammerdins (with a slight Charge backup) have finished 2nd and 3rd well above other characters you'd think could handle them. Actually, I have enough faith in the builds that I could probably get both or one of them to join this tourney to show you that they could easily squeak into the top 5.

    Secondly, you didn't really address my first post in the way that I had wanted. I expressed some concern over why you were allowing entire character substitutions and you didn't really touch on that in your following post. What gives? Just for a surprise factor? I get into the top 16 with a safe-bet character and then switch for the finals to something wacky my opponents won't expect? Kind of takes away from the experience.

    Really if you wanted to make casters more of a threat you could just lower the max resistance cap to 85. That would level the playing field a good deal and cut down on all the filler rules and I'd imagine us seeing more Fireball sosers over Smiters (the current SP dueling char of choice).
     
  15. Cattleya

    Cattleya IncGamers Member

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    Wow, it would just suck if people were to try something new for PvP and maybe have a tourney where everyone didn't know the winner at the start.

    Oh, and @kabal: As far as the Capture the Flag tourney is concerned, I bowed out gracefully when FB gave into the pressure to change his idea about banning charms. (I know how much it would have sucked for people to try something different.) I don't see the need to attack me now. I enjoy playing D2, and I won't be sent to other games and away from this forum just because I don't play the game the same way that you do.
     
  16. kabal

    kabal IncGamers Member

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    Sorry, didn't mean to seem like I was attacking you. What I meant was that everyone wants the tournament to cater to how they play. I have charms, so I see banning charms as unnecessary and I push for them to be allowed. Someone else might not have charms, and would see them as an unfair advantage for me so they ask that charms be banned.

    For the record, I think the PvP tourney IS something different. The majority of tourneys around here are HC untwinked with underpowered builds. PvP allows the participants to finally use those nice items and charms they've stockpiled instead of just sitting in the stash.
     
  17. Cattleya

    Cattleya IncGamers Member

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    Thanks for the apology. For a minute there I thought that I was on B.net without an enigma hammerdin, being told to pack it up. Just because my main interest is in the underpowered HC tourneys, doesn't mean that other things don't catch my interest. It would be nice if I felt I had the ability to compete in some of them. I'm not saying that their shouldn't be times for people to whip out the godly gear they have found, but what is wrong with some gear limitations for some of the PvP tourneys, if that is what the host wants?

    Not all of the non-PvP competitions are underpowered HC. Both the quest for 99 and grail hunting are best done with powerful characters with nice equipment, so it's not as if PvP is the only time someone gets to put all of those fun finds to use. There weren't any restrictions on characters or equipment in the MFL either. Again, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be PvP tournaments with your rules, I'm just saying there can be other PvP tourneys with different rules as well.


    The irony of all of this is that unless this tourney is placed well past the original 2-weeks specified, there is no way that I will have time to build a character between the other tourneys and real life. ( :rant: Stupid real life.) Maybe the next time around?

    Edit: I'm also not saying that my level of wealth should be the standard for any tourney. I know that I am at the low end of the spectrum, and that wouldn't be fun for most people in a twinked tourney. I'd have to imagine there is a place somewhere in the middle. (Like say, Barren's limitation on high runes ;) )
     
  18. Sint Nikolaas

    Sint Nikolaas IncGamers Member

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    Allright, few replies..
    1. I'm looking foreward to a new tourney and am working on a nice new character. However I will need more time to finish him with all the stuff going on so pushing the date back is a good idea. Kab's tournament hasn't even ended and telling people a new one comes seems to me like a bit of disrespect.. sorry.

    2. I don't really care about the rules. They look decent with a couple of flaws.

    3. One high rune seems a bit odd since alot of runewords which are (semi-)high require more then one high rune. Getting the one-rune-rule will rule out (from the runewords I've seen being used): Silence (ist, vex), Beast (Mal, Ber.. um and lum too..), Bramble (ohm, sur), botd (vex, zod), cta (for barbs, mal, ist, ohm), chaos (mal, ohm, fal), CoH (ber, ist), enigma (jah, ber) even hoto and sanctuary will require pretty high runes if you think of it. IMO you should allow all runewords like usuall, or allow at least 2.

    4. If knockback is allowed I will not enter this tournament.

    5. If knockback is allowed I will not enter this tournament, or I will build myself a GA zon with knock shooting from two screens away allowing noone to come close. Playing like a sissy loading up on enough ias not even a charger will have enough time to hit me since his charge will get stuck when hit with KB.

    6. Nah, if knockback is allowed I will not enter this tournament.

    7. About the hammerdin, I used to have a sp pvp hammerdin which did really good damage. He had about 30k defence, all resist maxed with good absorb and decent life with that. Getting a good hammerdin isn't hard and would probably be fun to face against alot of people. However, you really need to know what you're doing though :) I hope someone will be inspired by this and make one.

    8. I might add some more stuff later on..

    edit.. put in some spaces :rolleyes:
     
  19. kabal

    kabal IncGamers Member

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    Cat's posts just reminded me that the CTF tourney is slated to begin almost immediately after the conclusion of my tourney. There's also an MFO scheduled to begin June 4th at another forum, and some of the more prolific duelists here are going to be doing the MFO. I think it'd be best if another PvP tourney be put off until late June at the earliest.

    Edit: I'm curious how you got your hammerdin's defense up to 30k. Did you dump the points saved from conc into defiance or did you use an Exile (another runeword that'd be banned under the current rules)?
     
  20. skoolbus

    skoolbus IncGamers Member

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    WOW, you guys are REALLY REALLY harsh towards him

    while I also agree with a lot of the points, I will live by them and simply build myself a GA zon and win, or put a few more points into GA on my current zon

    I would be interested in this barren

    edit- oh kab, 30k def on a pally is NOT hard at all, me and Alien are in the process of making a pally with well over 100k def
     

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