Another dead unarmed Black man

HegemonKhan

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

my own two cents at what u should be afraid of:

you should be afraid of anyone and everyone who has more power than u. whether it's physical ability, having a gun and the support of law and government, or numbers.

it's human nature to use and abuse power. that is why people with power must be controlled and restrained.

"power tends to currupt, and absolute power tends to currupt absolutely"-forgot who said this

"with great power comes great responsibility"-spiderman movie quote.

probably 99% of people with power are UNable or simply don't care about being responsible and they use their power to abuse, violate, and commit crimes against poeple weaker than they. this is he EXACT behavior of a criminal and that's what they are, criminals. i fear the bad person with power, not a bad person without power. even good people, once they gain power, they abuse it and become bad people, criminals.

humanity ("the people" or "the masses") have power from their sheer number. that is why governments (police and military forces too) exist, to control the tremendous potential power of billions of people.

in the U.S. in theory at least we try to restrict and restrain the powerful government. this is based on the tremendous power of governments throughout history, abusing that power to coomimt crimes against the weak populace. tyrannies, dictatorships, monarchs, emperors, kings, queens, tzars, etc... have all used their government power to commit crimes aganist it's people. and for most of humans history, there has been no protection against them, until somewhat recently. china sending its police to mass murder innocent buddhist monks is jsut one present day example of a long long long long history of abuse and crimes of governmental power.
 

CyberHawk

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

..... You've been around guns your whole life and double action/single action doesn't ring a bell?
LOL..good one. But in my defense people around here don't do to good with abbreviations, I could imagine me going up to the shooting range or gun show and saying "this a DA or SA...SA maybe..naw maybe a DA..whatta think?" I could imagaine the stares I would get. But yea double action=DA, single action=SA..gotcha.


That's because the Sig is a DA/SA auto, the Glock is a "safe action," and the Ruger is a DA revolver. Every gun has a different trigger (and there's a difference between the feel of revolver and auto triggers from the little experience I have with revolvers), but when you're talking about different trigger mechanisms, of course there's going to be a difference. What else did you expect?
Well I thought you were saying that there was very little difference, or esp no such thing has poundage difference in particular...but seeing were on the same page here.
Was thinking about this today and ask my brother to see if he could find the manual on his SigPro 40, it stated 15pound 1st pullback, when hammer is disengaged...and let me tell you, the 1st pull sucks! One reason I don't really care for autos. He even said today with the hammer disengaged he would let his 3 year old play with it loaded...tho of course he wouldn't. In the house he usually keeps it like this, so its a quick pullback to get the hair trigger rdy for break-in's/etc.


The second pull is only going to be lighter for DA/SA guns. Obviously not every firearm is a DA/SA. As far as your ND goes, I think that's pretty much physically impossible from a handgun. Even for a SA the trigger pull will probably be at least 4-5 lbs, so unless your handgun was heavier than that (can't think of a single instance off the top of my head), you pulled the trigger. But I'm glad your foot is okay.
Most auto I've been in contact with have an external or internal hammer, so I would figure the more common ones are DA. I'm not really sure what ND means..abbreviation thing again. But yea like I stated earlier a revolver, even tho a DA, has the same trigger pull poundage every pull, unless cocked back..whereas an auto is a dramatic difference on the 2nd pull, unlike a revolver, or when an auto is loaded after last shell is ejected. There is most times a disengage the hammer little thing around your thumb to take the hammer back down...otherwise its very, very sensitive...alot more than 5 lbs I can tell ya that for sure.
This is why alot of people are more nervous with autos that I've come in contact with. And they should be. A revolver, even with no safety whatsoever, are safer becasue they are simple. A auto has more learning to become safe with. But really no big deal once shown.




Their job is to investigate crimes and make arrests.
Actually their job is to protect and serve. Lady down my street has cops take out her trash..thats the serve part. She's old and has noone to help her...this is what cops do sometimes. Its apart of their job. Not to always investigate, their are certain officers like detectives, investigators, private whatever to do this, cops assist of course in any way they can.
Now to make arrest, yeah this is what cops do as well...but so do county cops, blue cops, and troopers do as well.
Maybe you mean in general...casue there are alot of different jobs that certain types of police do...they ain't all the same.

Around here if your a county cop...you get the lowest respect. If your a blue, inside the city limits your butt is theirs, outside of it they ain't crap. Now troopers will kick that tail anywhere in the state..Troopers=our badboys.

Investigators/detectives around my area are pretty much never seen. I honestly only know one personally. But I never see him on duty. Task force around here is some 30+miles away as far as central area. They branch out I guess all thru west TN. And a very close friend of mine is in that..but he doesn't really talk to much of what he gets into. I just know when he gets obviouisly "face known" in an area they send him back home around here for about 6 months as a blue, then hes back off undercover. Pretty cool imo.





They might act nice, they might pretend to be your friend, they might tell you that if you confess or admit you did whatever you did (or didn't do), they'll put a good word in for you, but no one should mistake that for cops being your friend. They aren't. It's not their job to be your friend.
Like I said, maybe in your area. Around here, from Justice building to backyard fighting with a cop to make sure it doesn't get out of hand. Generally they want to help...they want people to like what they do, and trust in them. They want to trust everyone as well...but in most cases, cops are more unsure about you than you are of him. But your actions and responses sum you up pretty quick to some cops. They learn to read people, they deal with scum everyday...they can sense a scumbag...and can sense when your a person of good intentions. Not in all cases obviously...but in general a cop isn't juuust like you and me...they are more skilled in social situations.


Now hey, maybe if you get pulled over by your friend (who happens to be a cop), you may not get a speeding ticket. But that'd be because he's your friend, not because he's a cop.
True. But for me, I became friends with them after they had become a cop...I never knew then before that. I see random cops all the time in malls, gatherings, or just at the gas station...I usually go out of my way to say hi, and try to have a conversation. I think more people should do this. Cops are cool...and this coming rom a guy who at one time(when I was young) hated cops ,casued they chased me...alot. :)


If the officer is actually making a mistake, the place to settle it is in a court of law, not on the street (where you will most definitely lose).
Very true.

Far as your second question goes, the fact is officers do a job that's pretty thankless. But that doesn't change what their job is- to investigate crimes and make arrests. It's your responsibility as a citizen to be aware of your rights and take full advantage of them when dealing with law enforcement, because believe me, they won't do it for you. Treat officers with respect. Be courteous and polite at all times. But don't think for a second that they're there to look out for you (personally) or your rights. They're there to ensure general order and protect society at large. And if they think you're a danger to society or are otherwise breaking the law, well...

Ya I agree, but remember most of these guys didn't join the force to be jerks, they actually want to help. Society sometimes makes them into jerks, I know a few...they get all big-wig and whatnot...but I know alot more I would say good ones, than jerks.



 

KillerAim

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

Module88:
I certainly hope you haven't. If you're using your pistol in combat you've got a real problem...
You'd be surprised how often it happened. After their first fire fight, it was not unusual to find the new guys: (1) continuing to pull the trigger on their empty M16, or (2) not to have fired a single shot, or (3) to have pulled out their 45's when they emptied the M16, completely forgetting about the extra clips they were carrying for the rifle. (My first time, there was a lull in the shooting, so the team leader had time to remind us to change clips.)
 

WildBerry

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

Module88:

You'd be surprised how often it happened. After their first fire fight, it was not unusual to find the new guys: (1) continuing to pull the trigger on their empty M16, or (2) not to have fired a single shot, or (3) to have pulled out their 45's when they emptied the M16, completely forgetting about the extra clips they were carrying for the rifle. (My first time, there was a lull in the shooting, so the team leader had time to remind us to change clips.)
Mod spoke of real problem.... all three sound like one.



 

Module88

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

CyberHawk said:
LOL..good one. But in my defense people around here don't do to good with abbreviations, I could imagine me going up to the shooting range or gun show and saying "this a DA or SA...SA maybe..naw maybe a DA..whatta think?" I could imagaine the stares I would get. But yea double action=DA, single action=SA..gotcha.
You live in a weird place. You do have an internet connection, though, and it's awfully surprising you've never heard of these abbreviations. Guess they're just for us internet junkies.

Well I thought you were saying that there was very little difference, or esp no such thing has poundage difference in particular...but seeing were on the same page here.
Was thinking about this today and ask my brother to see if he could find the manual on his SigPro 40, it stated 15pound 1st pullback, when hammer is disengaged...and let me tell you, the 1st pull sucks! One reason I don't really care for autos. He even said today with the hammer disengaged he would let his 3 year old play with it loaded...tho of course he wouldn't. In the house he usually keeps it like this, so its a quick pullback to get the hair trigger rdy for break-in's/etc.
Never shot a SigPro, but 15 is probably way too high. 12/4.5-5 is probably much closer.

Most auto I've been in contact with have an external or internal hammer, so I would figure the more common ones are DA.
No Glocks or XD’s?

I'm not really sure what ND means..abbreviation thing again.
Negligent discharge.

But yea like I stated earlier a revolver, even tho a DA, has the same trigger pull poundage every pull, unless cocked back..whereas an auto is a dramatic difference on the 2nd pull, unlike a revolver, or when an auto is loaded after last shell is ejected. There is most times a disengage the hammer little thing around your thumb to take the hammer back down...otherwise its very, very sensitive...alot more than 5 lbs I can tell ya that for sure.
There are DA only autos, or DAK’s for Sigs. Not quite sure what you mean by the last part though.

This is why alot of people are more nervous with autos that I've come in contact with. And they should be. A revolver, even with no safety whatsoever, are safer becasue they are simple. A auto has more learning to become safe with. But really no big deal once shown.
The safety rules are the same regardless of what kind of gun you’re using. I suppose there are a few more possible manipulations, but these have little to do with safety.

Maybe you mean in general...casue there are alot of different jobs that certain types of police do...they ain't all the same.
Well let’s put it this way- I’m going to take advantage of my rights in most cases. They’re there, and everyone else should too. Doesn’t mean I’m going to be rude, but I’m not going to treat him like my best buddy. It’s just not in my best interest.

Investigators/detectives around my area are pretty much never seen. I honestly only know one personally. But I never see him on duty. Task force around here is some 30+miles away as far as central area. They branch out I guess all thru west TN. And a very close friend of mine is in that..but he doesn't really talk to much of what he gets into. I just know when he gets obviouisly "face known" in an area they send him back home around here for about 6 months as a blue, then hes back off undercover. Pretty cool imo.
All of what I’m saying, by the way, applies if an officer asks to search you, your home, or your vehicle, is prying for information that isn’t any of his business, or is otherwise treating you like he thinks you did something wrong.

Like I said, maybe in your area. Around here, from Justice building to backyard fighting with a cop to make sure it doesn't get out of hand. Generally they want to help...they want people to like what they do, and trust in them. They want to trust everyone as well...but in most cases, cops are more unsure about you than you are of him. But your actions and responses sum you up pretty quick to some cops. They learn to read people, they deal with scum everyday...they can sense a scumbag...and can sense when your a person of good intentions. Not in all cases obviously...but in general a cop isn't juuust like you and me...they are more skilled in social situations.
Sure. And those skills are quite useful for getting confessions or getting people to self incriminate by doing something stupid, like letting an officer in your home or saying something you really should leave to your lawyer. The interactions I’ve had with LEO around my area have been neutral, FYI.

True. But for me, I became friends with them after they had become a cop...I never knew then before that. I see random cops all the time in malls, gatherings, or just at the gas station...I usually go out of my way to say hi, and try to have a conversation. I think more people should do this. Cops are cool...and this coming rom a guy who at one time(when I was young) hated cops ,casued they chased me...alot.
Hey, if I have nothing better to do or I’m waiting for someone at, say, a 4th of July celebration, and there’s an officer, I might chat it up with him (and I have). But like I said, I’m not treating him like he’s my best buddy, and if he, for some reason, thought me suspicious, I certainly wouldn’t be talking to him for very long.

Ya I agree, but remember most of these guys didn't join the force to be jerks, they actually want to help. Society sometimes makes them into jerks, I know a few...they get all big-wig and whatnot...but I know alot more I would say good ones, than jerks.
Of course, like I said, if they don’t know whether you’re someone who should be in jail or not, you’re not going to be having a good time. They may be wrong, and you may be totally innocent, but if he thinks otherwise, it’s best to take advantage of your rights. That’s all.

WB said:
Mod spoke of real problem.... all three sound like one.
Not too shabby WB. Pretty close to what I was going to say, worded differently, obviously.

KA said:
(3) to have pulled out their 45's when they emptied the M16, completely forgetting about the extra clips they were carrying for the rifle.
So, WB got most of it, and don’t get me wrong, being in a firefight is real problem, but it isn’t necessarily wrong to go to your sidearm even if you still have ammunition for your primary. Being Vietnam I can certainly imagine some close encounters, and if they’re at say, 10-15 yards, I’d be very tempted to go to the handgun too, especially if it were a USGI 1911 and my primary was a Vietnam era M16. But then, I’m not sure how proficient draftees were with their handguns. If their proficiency with their rifles is any indication, well, switching to a loaded weapon is certainly better than trying to fire an empty one…
 

WildBerry

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

Not too shabby WB. Pretty close to what I was going to say, worded differently, obviously.
I assume KillerAim was referring to the confounding circumstance that is known as the baptism of fire, and while you and I have dabbled some with guns, I'm not really that sure we'd have done any better in the bushes than those rookies. No amount of even combat training with live ammo will necessarily shake the shellshock.

If I assumed KillerAim's intention right, I do not mean to belittle the psychological effect that made folks forget how to juggle their guns. Still, like I said, these guys caused quite a risk for themselves by their conduct - hence your estimation of that being a real problem is probably accurate.



 

jmervyn

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

Desert Storm? Was it a personal weapon/ammo or was it military issue (contractor)?
Oh, it was issue, and the guy was an E-6 (IIRC) who probably should have known better than to be jumping from a vehicle all "JohnWayne" if there wasn't a decent reason to... {You aren't allowed to carry "personal" weapons in many units (though then-Colonel Nash's driver scrounged an MP-5 from a cache which everyone wanted to play with)}

I've got to admit, I could never figure out how it happened - the M16A2 is still a longarm and the physical positioning required to get the round to go -into- the thigh and then travel upwards was just wierd (even for morons who try to self-inflict, which this wasn't). I bet he would have survived if they had been close enough to medevac quickly.
You weren't reading the DP as "double post", weren't you?
{/slapface}



 

Johnny

Banned
Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

You don't need to concern yourself with war Module. I'm sure if the USA ever does get attacked then Jmerv and the other *actual* soldiers will be taking you and the other refugees to safety.
 

jmervyn

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

You don't need to concern yourself with war Module. I'm sure if the USA ever does get attacked then Jmerv and the other *actual* soldiers will be taking you and the other refugees to safety.
I'm not an actual soldier, I'm an old soldier. Big diff.



 

WildBerry

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

I'm not an actual soldier, I'm an old soldier. Big diff.
I assume he meant "actual" in the sense of "real". The Swedish word, aktuell, has a slightly different connotation in that sense. And I don't think you would question the wisdom of "once a soldier, always a soldier", to which I think Johnny is alluding to.



 

Module88

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

I assume KillerAim was referring to the confounding circumstance that is known as the baptism of fire, and while you and I have dabbled some with guns, I'm not really that sure we'd have done any better in the bushes than those rookies. No amount of even combat training with live ammo will necessarily shake the shellshock.
Sure. But the entire point of training is to do just that. There's always the minute chance it'll fail, but if you're trained well, that's extremely, extremely, unlikely.

If I assumed KillerAim's intention right, I do not mean to belittle the psychological effect that made folks forget how to juggle their guns. Still, like I said, these guys caused quite a risk for themselves by their conduct - hence your estimation of that being a real problem is probably accurate.
You have to remember that a lot of these "soldiers" were draftees. Who knows- maybe they didn't take boot camp seriously, maybe they purposely chose not to fire their weapons- any number of things could have happened. My advice would be to not force people who don't want to fight to fight. It just doesn't work out.

Jm said:
Oh, it was issue, and the guy was an E-6 (IIRC) who probably should have known better than to be jumping from a vehicle all "JohnWayne" if there wasn't a decent reason to...
Can't say I've seen this John Wayne fellow...

{You aren't allowed to carry "personal" weapons in many units (though then-Colonel Nash's driver scrounged an MP-5 from a cache which everyone wanted to play with)}
Contractors don't have to obey such rules though, do they?

I've got to admit, I could never figure out how it happened - the M16A2 is still a longarm and the physical positioning required to get the round to go -into- the thigh and then travel upwards was just wierd (even for morons who try to self-inflict, which this wasn't). I bet he would have survived if they had been close enough to medevac quickly.
Ricochet? What's weird is that military primers are much harder than civvy ones, and I believe the more recent iterations of the M16 have lighter firing pins. With mil spec ammo a slam fire should be an extremely rare occurrence. Mucho bad luck and a dose of stupidity. Ow.

Johnny said:
You don't need to concern yourself with war Module. I'm sure if the USA ever does get attacked then Jmerv and the other *actual* soldiers will be taking you and the other refugees to safety.
Tell you what Johnny- you give it a try and we'll find out for sure. :cloud9:



 

WildBerry

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

Sure. But the entire point of training is to do just that. There's always the minute chance it'll fail, but if you're trained well, that's extremely, extremely, unlikely.

You have to remember that a lot of these "soldiers" were draftees. Who knows- maybe they didn't take boot camp seriously, maybe they purposely chose not to fire their weapons- any number of things could have happened. My advice would be to not force people who don't want to fight to fight. It just doesn't work out.
I'm not trying to question your expertise on that, but I'll rather take KillerAim's (and my own grandfather's, and my wife's grandfather's) word than yours on the relatively common nature of the phenomenon. I know those pops were made out of pig iron, and I don't think Killer's a softy either. If he can without a shame confess that he might've forgotten about his clips were it not for the squad leader's timely reminder in the heat of the combat, I'm pretty sure many a well-trained soldier but a first-timer forgot something essential. I'm not saying it's necessarily a feeling that freezes one with fear - although that might happen - but it seems to make one forget their ABC's.

Also, the fact that as far as I am aware, HQs often give relatively low-profile assignments to units that are entirely new folks to the front speaks of the phenomenon being common enough to be accounted for, making it less than an extremely, extremely unlikely minute chance as per your choice of diction.

Can't say I've seen this John Wayne fellow...
Please tell me this was some kind of a cruel joke.



 

Module88

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

I'm not trying to question your expertise on that, but I'll rather take KillerAim's (and my own grandfather's, and my wife's grandfather's) word than yours on the relatively common nature of the phenomenon.
Oh I have no doubt it happens, but the degree that it happens I think is very much a function of training. When you're training people who don't want to be trained and don't want to fight, I'm sure it's even worse.

I know those pops were made out of pig iron, and I don't think Killer's a softy either. If he can without a shame confess that he might've forgotten about his clips were it not for the squad leader's timely reminder in the heat of the combat, I'm pretty sure many a well-trained soldier but a first-timer forgot something essential. I'm not saying it's necessarily a feeling that freezes one with fear - although that might happen - but it seems to make one forget their ABC's.
You'll forget things. You'll always make mistakes. You can always handle a situation better. But if you're going to forget something, by God, don't forget your rifle, and don't forget to keep it loaded. The way I figure it, if someone is shooting at you and your weapon isn't going bang, you should recognize you have a problem and work to fix that problem- quickly. Maybe you forget to reload afterwards, and I can see that happening, but during a firefight? Holy **** Robin, if you don't recognize that your weapon is not functioning, uh... not good.

Also, the fact that as far as I am aware, HQs often give relatively low-profile assignments to units that are entirely new folks to the front speaks of the phenomenon being common enough to be accounted for, making it less than an extremely, extremely unlikely minute chance as per your choice of diction.
I don't know about your line of reasoning here, WB. Would you sent your greenest men to take on the most important or most challenging missions? Not only is that unsound tactically and strategically, it's also bad for morale. What would be the first thing you'd want to hear if you were sent to Iraq, "we're expecting extremely heavy resistance in Fallujah and relatively heavy casualties... go assault the city"?

I think a little settling in time is prudent, especially if the rotations are going to be long and there's a lot more combat in an environment you weren't really prepared for all that well to begin with (counter-insurgency and urban warfare).

Please tell me this was some kind of a cruel joke.
Afraid not.



 

jmervyn

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

Can't say I've seen this John Wayne fellow...
This should help...

Contractors don't have to obey such rules though, do they?
I honestly don't know. In the one documentary I watched on Blackwater they seemed to be able to pick their preferences.
With mil spec ammo a slam fire should be an extremely rare occurrence.
I'm saying that I suspect the opposite, and I've had numerous personal incidents of a dry 'slam fire'. I recall being able to cause them fairly easily with the M16A1's (and earlier) we used as cadidiots (which were mainly from Air Force security's armory). I also suspect that's the main reason that when troops are in vehicles they're supposed to have the weapon muzzle on the floor rather than the butt.



 

Module88

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

This should help...
Not really...

I'm saying that I suspect the opposite, and I've had numerous personal incidents of a dry 'slam fire'. I recall being able to cause them fairly easily with the M16A1's (and earlier) we used as cadidiots (which were mainly from Air Force security's armory). I also suspect that's the main reason that when troops are in vehicles they're supposed to have the weapon muzzle on the floor rather than the butt.
IIRC, the M16A1's already should have had the lighter firing pins installed. If you were using original M16's, or perhaps M16A1's that weren't retrofitted properly/maintained, then a slam fire is a very real possibility.

I'm not terribly familiar with military policies/procedures, but even if slam fires weren't issue, that'd be the procedure I'd have too. It's way easier to shoulder a long arm in a vehicle if the butt is already upwards (if you need to). If the butt of your M16 is on the floor, however, and you have body armor in a cramped Humvee, well, I hope you have an easily accessible sidearm (not to say that it's easy to shoulder a long arm in a cramped vehicle either way, I'm just saying it's easier).



 

Dondrei

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

Module88:

You'd be surprised how often it happened. After their first fire fight, it was not unusual to find the new guys: (1) continuing to pull the trigger on their empty M16, or (2) not to have fired a single shot, or (3) to have pulled out their 45's when they emptied the M16, completely forgetting about the extra clips they were carrying for the rifle. (My first time, there was a lull in the shooting, so the team leader had time to remind us to change clips.)
If only they'd had Counterstrike back then.

I'm not an actual soldier, I'm an old soldier. Big diff.
Ah yes, there are old soldiers and there are bold soldiers...



 
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