Another dead unarmed Black man

[PFSS]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

Except that it's very easy to see if someone was shot while being against something like the ground or a wall as opposed to standing up in a free area.

"While the suspect was pinned against the ground he appeared to be trying to grab an officers gun"

Hell - that's if they felt like explaining how things might have happened in the confusion.

If this video was not taken then I don't believe that this officer would ever have faced any criminal charges at all. Call me a cynic, but that's just my view.

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

he wouldn't have faced any charges even with the video. i wouldn't and don't doubt for second that the only reason the prosecutor.....finally...decided to charge the murderer (the cop) is because of the growing size of the riot

i have yet to see a police department, a prosecutor, and judges not be in bed and sleeping together....

and yet, as an american, all throughout my school life, they teach me how the 3 branches of gov (executive=police and maybe prosecutor, legislative=N/A, and the judiciary=judge and maybe prosecutor. i'm actually not sure which branch a prosecutor falls under or if he's in both of them) are suppose to act as a check and balance on each other. yet, in the real world the cops, prosecutor, and judges are all on the same side as allies (NON- check and balances) and "snuggling" with each other. the judges take the word of cops and prosecutors as if they were "god" and their word "written in stone". so much for a judge suppose to be keeping the cops and prosecutors in check and balance....pfft...

and it's not just white cops and black civilians, us white people are also abused by cops who are criminal and yet protected and immune from just punishment for their crimes and crminal behavior and abuse of citizens of the country that they sworn to protect, not to violate and abuse....especially with all that police power or prosecutors with all their prosecutorial powers that they both have.....mike nifong...the ONLY criminal prosecutor punished...and it was only a slap on the wrist compared to the damage and level of crime he did to the 3 innocent duke lacross players....and the countless criminal cops who rarely get punished except a few lucky individual cops like this guy at the subway station and only because of the growing riot..i'm sure..

 

[WildBerry]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

and yet, as an american, all throughout my school life, they teach me how the 3 branches of gov (executive=police, legislative=N/A, and the judiciary=prosecutor and judge) are suppose to act as a check and balance on each other. yet, in the real world the cops, prosecutor, and judges are all on the same side as allies (NON- check and balances) and snoozing with each other. yet judges take the word of cops and prosecutors as if they were "god" and their word "written in stone". so much for a judge suppose to be keeping the cops and prosecutors in check and balance....pfft...

Police is generally not considered a part of the executive branch, although some consider the police department to represent the execs. Wiki.

So surprisingly enough, all relevant guys here are a part of the same branch. I don't think this is a division of power failing -issue. That, of course, does not belittle the essence of your observation, that the aforementioned forces have at times a too great a mutual understanding between each other.

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

in america, the police are in fact under the executive branch title (of course they are the lowest level if they are local city-town cops, FBI much higher level obviusly, and than u got the highest level executive person, the president of the U.S.).

remember we got federalism in the U.S. the local police "take orders" from county or district police. the county or district police "take orders" from the state (our 50 providences, not state as in nation-country-U.S.) police, the state police "takes orders" from the federal or nation level police, the FBI. the FBI "takes orders" from the president of the U.S. of america. all of these institutions are executive in the U.S. but it's a federalism heirarchy as u can see.

american definition of executive: enforcement of the law: and that's definately a cop. and so is the president of the U.S. an enforcer of the law. local cop and soon to be president of the U.S., Obama, or soon not to be president, Bush, are both of the executive branch in the U.S. system

yes we both agree (i think) that those in gov are an entire "allied team" and against "us, the people, or civilians/citizens".

this really tee 's me off since we are taught about how great U.S. was to make a "gov of the people, for the people, by the people". maybe at one time this was a reality, but not anymore... be it a senator or a politician or a cop or a prosecutor or a judge, they have ALL forgotten the original purpose of our constitution and the prerequisite rebellion against the british....to become a new country (the U.S. of america) and make the new american constitution all of which to give the people protection against the gov and its abuses against the people from the very beggining of human civilization and continuing to be prominant throughout much of the world of today.

those now in gov has forgotten that they serve us, the people. and instead they have gone back to the old dictatorship type govs' view that the people are insigificant flies or whatever and they can do and abuse the people however much they want. of course america isn't at the brutality of a dictatorship but the attitude is back again with the people in the gov. they care more about themselves and their peers in gov than the public and people.

the simpliest proofs:

1. a prosecutor immediately charges and labels a civilian as a "criminal" and "armed and dangerous" and a "monster" when the civilian is thought to ahve commited a crime. however, even when it's near undeniable of a cop having actually commited a crime, the prosecutor rarely charges the cop and only does so if the pressure or cirstances forces him to.. but you' never hear a prosecutor call a cop a "criminal", "armed and dangerous", or a "monster" when it apears or worse definately appears that he (the cop) has commited a crime..total double standard and abuse of power. if you're a cop or a prosecutor (see, aka google, mike nifong or the duke lacross players case for an example of the "tip of the iceberg" at how above the law prosecutors are) u are above the law. if you're not in gov, you're helpless and going to jail for a long time, unless you're rich and your expensive attorney can save u or protect u, like again with the rich duke lacross players and mike nifong and the legal case.

2. a cop gives u a ticket for a simple traffic violation like for not stopping at a stop sign at an intersection. u have a witness that observed that u DID stop. the judge ignores the witness and sides with the lying cop and upholds the traffic ticket. (this actually happened to some one i know). so much for a judge caring about justice and the integrity of court and law. pfft..

 

[SaroDarksbane]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

yet, in the real world the cops, prosecutor, and judges are all on the same side as allies (NON- check and balances) and "snuggling" with each other. the judges take the word of cops and prosecutors as if they were "god" and their word "written in stone". so much for a judge suppose to be keeping the cops and prosecutors in check and balance....pfft...

I think that depends entirely on where you live.

Where I came from, the cops and judges really despised each other.

 

[CyberHawk]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

Well since thise thread is kinda all over the place on guns, cops, rules, and of course bed partners.

My 10 cents is...

I think the cop is an idiot and over reacted to the situation. If he mistaked his gun for a taser gun then to bad for him, if it were me I'd admit to that and take whatever happens. I killed a man accidenly, but you prolly woulda saw that in my after-shot reaction in the videos...unlike he did.
"Hey Bob you taser-gun kinda popped when if fired...hey look, blood...CRAAAP call an ambulance now!"

On gun safety, been around guns my whole life NRA/ILA/etc. whatever right. Gun safety is keeping your finger off the trigger. Every pistol that I've ever seen basically has a safety in the trigger by the pounds of pressure it takes to fire them. That IS the safety. Guns just don't go off when you brush up to someone or dance in uniform..:whistling:
Have you ever seen a revolver with a safety button on them? I haven't. Revolvers are usually safer for newcomers and what not...but yet, they are always loaded and ready to fire, but its becasue they are simple and teach the basic rule...keep yer finger off the trigger.
You either pull the trigger with around a 5-6 pd pressure trigger, or **** it back and take that 5-6 back to less that 1pound probably. I don't know exact manufactor details, this is just what is usually told.
Now an automatic most times has a very strong 1st shot if not "pulled back".I've heard like 15 pds..but when that 1st shot goes, the rest is like the weight of your finger...very sensitive.
So keep your bullets in the barrel, learn your gun..they don't attack people, you do.

As far as a cop having a sidearm loaded, and making people nervous. The criminals should be nervous, why would a good citizen be worried? And if your the kind of person in the room that gets all nervous when an even empty gun comes out (my cousin), then its usually casue you know nothing of them and believe guns kill people, not people kill people.

 

[Module88]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

You either pull the trigger with around a 5-6 pd pressure trigger, or **** it back and take that 5-6 back to less that 1pound probably. I don't know exact manufactor details, this is just what is usually told.
Now an automatic most times has a very strong 1st shot if not "pulled back".I've heard like 15 pds..but when that 1st shot goes, the rest is like the weight of your finger...very sensitive.

This is... worded poorly, to say the least. Besides, not every gun is a DA/SA, and those that are don't have the pull weights even close to what you described. 5-6 on SA maybe, but on DA? Not stock ("safe action" and the like excluded).

As far as a cop having a sidearm loaded, and making people nervous. The criminals should be nervous, why would a good citizen be worried?

Good citizens should always worry. Cops aren't your friends, and quite frankly, they make mistakes too. The fact that you're a "good" citizen (course, how would they know?) doesn't mean very much.

 

[jmervyn]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

On thread - sure looked like an execution to me.

Yes. Heck, the M4 and shotgun riding in the cab with my father are kept with one in the chamber too.

That sounds like a <really> bad idea to me. I've only dealt with all the original versions of the M16 rather than with the M4, but I'd <never> keep one chambered in a vehicle unless I was thinking "weapons hot". I've seen enough times where a good jolt will fire the round - a treadhead (tanker) who was cross-attached to our unit jumped from his vehicle and killed himself due to this during Desert Storm.

I keep neither my 9mm Ruger nor my Steyr AUG with a round chambered... but then, I've got a child in the house.

Perhaps Killer would care to opine?

 

[BobCox2]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

As far as a cop having a sidearm loaded, and making people nervous. The criminals should be nervous, why would a good citizen be worried? And if your the kind of person in the room that gets all nervous when an even empty gun comes out (my cousin), then its usually cause you know nothing of them and believe guns kill people, not people kill people.

IMHO a man with a gun is a man with a gun, always makes me nervous.
Handguns are tools for killing people, no more no less. The person using it is responsible but the guns bullet is what kills, the fact that a person around me is carrying the tool is going to impact my behavior.

 

[Module88]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

Handguns are tools, no more no less.

Fixed.

10 chars

That sounds like a <really> bad idea to me. I've only dealt with all the original versions of the M16 rather than with the M4, but I'd <never> keep one chambered in a vehicle unless I was thinking "weapons hot". I've seen enough times where a good jolt will fire the round - a treadhead (tanker) who was cross-attached to our unit jumped from his vehicle and killed himself due to this during Desert Storm.

Desert Storm? Was it a personal weapon/ammo or was it military issue (contractor)?

 

[CyberHawk]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

This is... worded poorly, to say the least. Besides, not every gun is a DA/SA, and those that are don't have the pull weights even close to what you described. 5-6 on SA maybe, but on DA? Not stock ("safe action" and the like excluded).

I don't even know what DA/SA means...and I've been in and around guns my whole life...some of us don't know the brainiac crap, we just know whats in our hands. I think you'd be the better to explain to the classroom the tech. When they wanna learn English I'll break-in...:thumbup:

But yes there is a difference "on some, for you **" on revolver and autos. I mean its kinda easy to tell...squeeze this one..now squeeze this one, fairly simple imo. My God my bro's sig Pro 40 is hard as hell on the 1st pull, the Glock9 a little easier, but my SP101 Ruger, and Taurus .38 is about 1/2 what those auto are. I'm not even gonna get into all the .22. I love'em, but Ill take the revolver any day over those auto's.
Now of course on pull no.2 and on...oh yea, 1st time I shot the 9mm, it fired when I dropped my arm from just the weight of the gun in my hand...good thing my foot was clear lol. Not the guns fault tho...my finger is on the trigger.

Good citizens should always worry. Cops aren't your friends, and quite frankly, they make mistakes too. The fact that you're a "good" citizen (course, how would they know?) doesn't mean very much.

The "Good citizens should always worry" comment is crap. Worry about crime yes, worry about cops, wtf man. I'm not saying all cops are clean no of course not, and I would know.
My ex-brother in law (cop), got fired after choking my sister-in-law and getting is gun afterwards, but only firing it into the air in the argument...was a bad cop. Am I afraid of him...why would I be. He was good at what he did, he was nice, but he's human. To be afraid of a cop, is like being afraid of everyone. But being afraid of his sidearm...is being afraid of a gun.

Cops are not your friends? Actually a few of mine are...sorry for your loss. But I'm in some hicks towns, guess its different here right?
And yes of course they make mistakes..anyone who knows dirt knows this. They make decisions using force...these are not easy to make, and most time they are always people who disagree with the choice made.
But there are also alot of us..pretty much everyone I know, who has a license to carry. Should we make the cops nervous? Are they now the bad guys, or is back to us citizens?

 

[CyberHawk]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

IMHO a man with a gun is a man with a gun, always makes me nervous.
Handguns are tools for killing people, no more no less. The person using it is responsible but the guns bullet is what kills, the fact that a person around me is carrying the tool is going to impact my behavior.

Yea thats kinda traits like my cousin..I gave him an empty...repeat, empty gun to see how he liked it....he held it by the handle with 2 fingers and was like "yea its nice".
He was interested in home defense for his family..and I told him a shotgun would prolly be better for him than a pistol...but after seeing that I was like, "maybe you just need a house alarm".


But yea us hunters buy "guns" to hunt with...not to kill people? Sure it can kill a person, but wasn't why I bought it. Now the rifle I'm thinking about getting soon..hmm. Naaah, j/k. :crazyeyes:
I just want something that can hit a target at around 500-700 yards...been looking at a 7mm bolt action. The 308 is nice, but 7mm is better for wind variation imo.

 

[Module88]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

I don't even know what DA/SA means...and I've been in and around guns my whole life...some of us don't know the brainiac crap, we just know whats in our hands. I think you'd be the better to explain to the classroom the tech. When they wanna learn English I'll break-in...:thumbup:

..... You've been around guns your whole life and double action/single action doesn't ring a bell?

But yes there is a difference "on some, for you **" on revolver and autos. I mean its kinda easy to tell...squeeze this one..now squeeze this one, fairly simple imo. My God my bro's sig Pro 40 is hard as hell on the 1st pull, the Glock9 a little easier, but my SP101 Ruger, and Taurus .38 is about 1/2 what those auto are. I'm not even gonna get into all the .22. I love'em, but Ill take the revolver any day over those auto's.

That's because the Sig is a DA/SA auto, the Glock is a "safe action," and the Ruger is a DA revolver. Every gun has a different trigger (and there's a difference between the feel of revolver and auto triggers from the little experience I have with revolvers), but when you're talking about different trigger mechanisms, of course there's going to be a difference. What else did you expect?

Now of course on pull no.2 and on...oh yea, 1st time I shot the 9mm, it fired when I dropped my arm from just the weight of the gun in my hand...good thing my foot was clear lol. Not the guns fault tho...my finger is on the trigger.

The second pull is only going to be lighter for DA/SA guns. Obviously not every firearm is a DA/SA. As far as your ND goes, I think that's pretty much physically impossible from a handgun. Even for a SA the trigger pull will probably be at least 4-5 lbs, so unless your handgun was heavier than that (can't think of a single instance off the top of my head), you pulled the trigger. But I'm glad your foot is okay.

The "Good citizens should always worry" comment is crap. Worry about crime yes, worry about cops, wtf man. I'm not saying all cops are clean no of course not, and I would know.
My ex-brother in law (cop), got fired after choking my sister-in-law and getting is gun afterwards, but only firing it into the air in the argument...was a bad cop. Am I afraid of him...why would I be. He was good at what he did, he was nice, but he's human. To be afraid of a cop, is like being afraid of everyone. But being afraid of his sidearm...is being afraid of a gun.

Never said you should be afraid of them (under most circumstances, anyway). Doesn't mean you should trust them.

Cops are not your friends? Actually a few of mine are...sorry for your loss. But I'm in some hicks towns, guess its different here right?
And yes of course they make mistakes..anyone who knows dirt knows this. They make decisions using force...these are not easy to make, and most time they are always people who disagree with the choice made.
But there are also alot of us..pretty much everyone I know, who has a license to carry.

Cops are not your friends. The fact that you have friends who happen to be cops is irrelevant. Their job is to investigate crimes and make arrests. They might act nice, they might pretend to be your friend, they might tell you that if you confess or admit you did whatever you did (or didn't do), they'll put a good word in for you, but no one should mistake that for cops being your friend. They aren't. It's not their job to be your friend.

Their job is to investigate crimes and make arrests, and if it so happens they think you did something, they'll do just that. And they can lie, "bully," or otherwise scare you (or play nice) if they so choose during the course of their investigation. Now hey, maybe if you get pulled over by your friend (who happens to be a cop), you may not get a speeding ticket. But that'd be because he's your friend, not because he's a cop.

Should we make the cops nervous? Are they now the bad guys, or is back to us citizens?

I'm no cop basher, but I'm not stupid either. There's no reason to make a cop nervous or otherwise be rude and spiteful. If the officer is actually making a mistake, the place to settle it is in a court of law, not on the street (where you will most definitely lose).

Far as your second question goes, the fact is officers do a job that's pretty thankless. But that doesn't change what their job is- to investigate crimes and make arrests. It's your responsibility as a citizen to be aware of your rights and take full advantage of them when dealing with law enforcement, because believe me, they won't do it for you. Treat officers with respect. Be courteous and polite at all times. But don't think for a second that they're there to look out for you (personally) or your rights. They're there to ensure general order and protect society at large. And if they think you're a danger to society or are otherwise breaking the law, well...

 

[BobCox2]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

Fixed.

Fixed - how is that fixed Fool?
You can't stand to admit what the tool is designed for for some reason?
Thats what it's for, no other reason exists.

At least be honest about it, I am. The tool is needed, and thats the reason for it, it's that simple.
I really don't see you as the kind of person that gets stuck in denial that much so that response really surprised me, it's like your catering to the majority here or something.
CyberHawk
I have owned and fired guns, (only have a shotgun currently) no problem but I don't carry in public and when I see a man with a gun be he Police or not it make me nervous, that makes sense if you think about it.

 

[Module88]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

Fixed - how is that fixed Fool?
You can't stand to admit what the tool is designed for for some reason?
Thats what it's for, no other reason exists.

Well Bob, just because a hammer was made to pound nails in doesn't mean I couldn't bash your skull open with one end and pick your eyes out with the other. But quite frankly, if handguns were "tools for killing people, no more no less," you'd have an awful hard time explaining the people who make a living by shooting them well- and not at people, mind you. And you'd have a hard time explaining the handguns purposely built for competition, knick knacks and all.

At least be honest about it, I am. The tool is needed, and thats the reason for it, it's that simple. I really don't see you as the kind of person that gets stuck in denial that much so that response really surprised me, it's like your catering to the majority here or something.

Well if you think I'm in denial or are otherwise catering to the majority, go ahead and explain how some handguns are purposely made and used for things like competition and how that reconciles with your statement that handguns are tools for killing people, "no more, no less." I'd be awfully interested in hearing it.

I have owned and fired guns, (only have a shotgun currently) no problem but I don't carry in public and when I see a man with a gun be he Police or not it make me nervous, that makes sense if you think about it.

No, it doesn't. It only makes sense if you have hoplophobia or are otherwise ignorant about firearms. Which is completely consistent with the fact that this "nervousness" regarding firearms in America is only a recent invention. Just a couple of decades ago kids could walk around town with a .22 or shotgun and not cause anyone to bat an eye, or otherwise bring guns to school and leave them in trucks or have em for show and tell. Course, back in these days, when someone decided to shoot up a school with his rifle, students would return the favor. These days I'd be surprised if most knew how to clear a handgun or AR-15, let alone safely.

 

[BobCox2]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

Some marksman could dive a nail in with a bullet if they practice enough, but thats not what the tool is made for.
If you go to train using the tool what is the most common shape of the target? - it's not a bullseye is it?
Good training for handgun shooting uses targets shaped like people does it not? Don't you fire two to the chest then switch to the head-shot because they might have a vest on?

Give it up fool I called you on it and you just will not admit it's the truth.

Nervous means I'm aware they are carrying and I'm not and that I'm going to give them a lot less backtalk than I will to lets say say some fool who is located across the Internet.

A rifle is made to shoot animals, including people, a handgun is made to shoot animals that can shoot back (people only) before they get the rifle they have ready.

FYI; I favor a armed society, it's more polite, I just don't deny what the reason the weapon was made for is ( Killing People ) just because its politically incorrect, accommodation to the PC line is a mistake by the NRA and other groups that want to keep their guns.

 

[Module88]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

DP Monster

 

[Module88]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

If you go to train using the tool what is the most common shape of the target? - it's not a bullseye is it?

Well actually, it kind of depends on what you're training for, Bob. Here's an IPSC stage for your amusement. Yes, the targets have different sizes, shapes, etc. So I suppose it'd be a good idea, if you were say, training to compete in a match, to train with the various targets that will be used, no?

Good training for handgun shooting uses targets shaped like people does it not?

Good training doesn't depend on the target shape. And not everyone trains for the same thing, although obviously, good handgun skills are good handgun skills, regardless of whether they're being used to knock down poppers or people. So once again, it depends.

Don't you fire two to the chest then switch to the headshot because they might have a vest on?

What do you mean by "switch to the head shot"? Shooting someone in the head is not standard procedure, no. Obviously, however, it is possible that it may be necessary under some circumstances.

Give it up fool I called you on it and you just will not admit it's the truth.

I see you aren't interested in my challenge. Color me unsurprised.

Nervous means I'm aware they are carrying and I'm not and that I'm going to give them a lot less backtalk than I will to lets say say some fool who is located across the Internet.

Still unsurprised.

 

[BobCox2]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

That IPSC stuff looks like a video game.
Did they have the type of use you are saying the handgun is for anytime in the first say 20 years after it was developed?
Well since I got you so upset your stuttering now I'm going to drop it, and FYI the Fool thing is not a personal insult just my opinion of the poor stance you have taken in the argument and your so called correction of my first comment.

 

[Module88]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

That IPSC stuff looks like a video game.

Okay... well, it's... real.

Did they have the type of use you are saying the handgun is for anytime in the first say 20 years after it was developed?

You'll have to consider be rather uninformed about the history and evolution of gunpowder and firearms throughout the centuries. But the answer is rather irrelevant. Your assertion was that "Handguns are tools for killing people, no more no less." Which is patently and obviously false.

Well since I got you so upset your stuttering now I'm going to drop it, and FYI the Fool thing is not a personal insult just my opinion of the poor stance you have taken in the argument and your so called correction of my first comment.

Well, at least it's a new excuse. Not a particularly good one, but I suppose none of them really are. Come back when you have an opinion you can actually defend. :coffee:


Oh, and let me get that edit while I'm at it:

FYI; I favor a armed society, it's more polite, I just don't deny what the reason the weapon was made for is ( Killing People ) just because its politically incorrect, accommodation to the PC line is a mistake by the NRA and other groups that want to keep their guns.

Neither do I, Bob- past, present, and future.