Another dead unarmed Black man

[Module88]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

Watch out everyone, Mod just came back from a whicked game of Counterstrike so he knows guns.

:whistling: If you're going to try to insult me, the least you could do is be creative. :coffee:

I don't know if the standard police procedure is to run around with a bullet in the chamber and have the hammer cocked.

Most police pistols do not have hammers (ie. Glocks), and those that do (Sigs) are unsafe to carry cocked. Not that there is a uniform "police procedure," since different departments have different policies. Still, I would be extremely surprised if any department (at least in the United States) would have a policy of carrying without a round in the chamber.

While on regular police patrol, we never chambered a round unless we were going into a 'live threat' situation. When I was out in the field, I carried it un-cocked with a chambered round. It's funny that I can still perfectly recall the click-click sound of a chambered round even though it's more than 35 years since I carried the pistol.

I'm extremely surprised that you carried in condition II. If you're going to carry the 1911, it should be in condition one. Of course, being binded by military procedures and policies, you wouldn't have that choice. But still, IIRC, military procedure was to carry the 1911 in condition three even in WWII (and I don't believe that policy changed, but I could be wrong). So if the policy was to carry without a round in the chamber (as I believe it was, at least for the 1911), why on Earth would you carry in condition two (for all intents and purposes, pretty much the worst way to carry a 1911)?

 

[maccool]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

:whistling: If you're going to try to insult me, the least you could do is be creative. :coffee:

So you have a CCW permit now? Good to know. I appreciate vigilantism in all its forms.

Aim true.

 

[Module88]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

So you have a CCW permit now? Good to know. I appreciate vigilantism in all its forms.

Aim true.

Because, you have to, you know, have a CCW permit to know something about firearms. Which is why no one in the states of Illinois or Wisconsin know anything about guns, of course.

And, interesting connection you make there between CCW permits and "vigilantism." Care to back it up, or are you just full of crap like those other gun control advocates?

 

[KillerAim]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

Module88:

So if the policy was to carry without a round in the chamber (as I believe it was, at least for the 1911), why on Earth would you carry in condition two (for all intents and purposes, pretty much the worst way to carry a 1911)?

It's a habit I picked up from the vets when I was a FNG. I believe that it had to do with sound suppression. It's a lot quieter to pull back the hammer than it is to pull back the slide.

Actually, I never fired the 45 during combat. I was in six firefights in total; five using a M16, one using a M16 and a M60.

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

i'm not sure which police shooting you're adressing (i hadn't watched the link u gave), but i saw some about this unarmed guy at a subway station getting shot and killed by a cop with 2-3 other cops there.

this happens all the time, an innocent unarmed undangerous person getting killed, it's called murder.

sadly, the prosecuter had a hard time figuring this out since the murderer was a cop. if it was a civilian who was the murderer it wouldn't take the prosector 3 weeks to decide to charge murder on them. i seriously doubt if there was not the rioting, the prosecutor would never have charged the cop with murder. time and time again cops are above the law, even with murder. took the prosecutor 3 weeks to charge the cop with murder, whereas if u had any civilian who shot and killed anotehr unarmed undangerous civilian, there wouldn't be a 3 week lull time to charge them with murder.

so much for this being a nation of law. it's a nation of man, and cops are above the law and civilians are not.

 

[Module88]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

Module88:

It's a habit I picked up from the vets when I was a FNG. I believe that it had to do with sound suppression. It's a lot quieter to pull back the hammer than it is to pull back the slide.

True, but if you're going to violate procedure, you may as well carry in condition one. Yeah it'll be a little less reliable, but if you were using an old 1911, I don't think it'd be much of an issue either way. You'd have been much better off, IMO, going in condition one than two.

Actually, I never fired the 45 during combat. I was in six firefights in total; five using a M16, one using a M16 and a M60.

I certainly hope you haven't. If you're using your pistol in combat you've got a real problem...

 

[AeroJonesy]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

so much for this being a nation of law. it's a nation of man, and cops are above the law and civilians are not.

Apparently you missed the part where the cop has already been charged with murder.

Do american policemen have a bullet loaded in the pipe at all times? That certainly isn't the case in Sweden (and I believe, most other countries as well).

Most other countries? In most other countries cops carry automatic rifles.

 

[LorveN]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

Most other countries? In most other countries cops carry automatic rifles.

Automatic rifles? You refer to SWAT and equivalents now? Anyway, I could have specified I was referring to european countries, industrialised far-east countries, and even most ex. Soviet countries. Automatic rifles are probably used in Africa, Middle east, South America and pretty much any country currently under martial law.

About the you-should-keep-a-bullet-ready-to-fire-at-all-times, I understand that the violence might be higher in the USA than for example in Sweden, but as Johnny also said, self inflicted injuries in Sweden are at least down to near zero. And I'm pretty confident it's a downward spiral, if criminals know cops have the gun ready to fire at all times, they are more tense as well.

 

[Module88]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

Most other countries? In most other countries cops carry automatic rifles.

I don't have the numbers for this one, but I highly doubt that's the case.

About the you-should-keep-a-bullet-ready-to-fire-at-all-times, I understand that the violence might be higher in the USA than for example in Sweden, but as Johnny also said,

The violence level is irrelevant. Most police officers, even in the United States, will never have to discharge their weapons (same with ordinary civilians). Doesn't mean they should carry with an empty chamber, because by God, when you need to use your gun, you really need to use your gun. Empty chambers aren't very conductive of that.

self inflicted injuries in Sweden are at least down to near zero.

So train your officers better, or if the holsters are the issue (unlikely), get better holsters. If you can't trust someone to carry with one in the pipe, you shouldn't trust them to carry at all.

And I'm pretty confident it's a downward spiral, if criminals know cops have the gun ready to fire at all times, they are more tense as well.

So what if the criminals aren't as comfortable? If I were a criminal, and you were interested in making me comfortable, you could, for starters, ensure that your officers don't carry weapons they can readily use. I'd appreciate that (or better yet, make sure they don't have weapons), and believe me, I'd be far less tense.

 

[Ash Housewares]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

We carried a Colt 45 (M1911A1) that had two safeties; one grip, one manual. Since it's single action, there is a third 'safety' that requires the hammer to be cocked before the gun will fire. (Of course, the act of chambering a round will automatically c0ck the hammer).

While on regular police patrol, we never chambered a round unless we were going into a 'live threat' situation. When I was out in the field, I carried it un-cocked with a chambered round. It's funny that I can still perfectly recall the click-click sound of a chambered round even though it's more than 35 years since I carried the pistol.

--- I should have guessed that that word would be censored!!

Elly hates roosters

 

[WildBerry]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

The violence level is irrelevant. Most police officers, even in the United States, will never have to discharge their weapons (same with ordinary civilians). Doesn't mean they should carry with an empty chamber, because by God, when you need to use your gun, you really need to use your gun. Empty chambers aren't very conductive of that.

So train your officers better, or if the holsters are the issue (unlikely), get better holsters. If you can't trust someone to carry with one in the pipe, you shouldn't trust them to carry at all.

So what if the criminals aren't as comfortable? If I were a criminal, and you were interested in making me comfortable, you could, for starters, ensure that your officers don't carry weapons they can readily use. I'd appreciate that (or better yet, make sure they don't have weapons), and believe me, I'd be far less tense.

I don't get your logic here. By necessitating carrying one in the pipe by the general quick need to draw in an armed conflict, we can do away with the hoslters as well and say that keeping the gun in hand all the time shaves off a lot of unnecessary gun-drawing.

In most semiautomatics I've used, getting one into the chamber is a matter of less time than getting it out of the holster, even from the clearly visible hip. I'm not signing your assumption that the culture of firearm use is not relevant to the debate - I know in my country in the few occasions the cops actually pull their guns, they can spare the time to put one in the chamber well enough. In light of whatever statistics I can find at the moment, it doesn't seem to provoke the criminals that much, unlike your "criminal comfortability" argument seems to state.

 

[SaroDarksbane]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

Well, I'm not sure what manufacturer's tell you, but if you're drawing or otherwise holding your weapon, you're pretty much presumably holding it by the grip.

That would depend on how firmly you gripped it when you drew the weapon, presumably. If it's alright with you, I'll defer to my father's opinion (a police officer) on that matter.

IMO it's much more dangerous to have that sort of feature in a situation like this. Once you grip the gun it's ready to fire.

Unless you have both types.

While on regular police patrol, we never chambered a round unless we were going into a 'live threat' situation. When I was out in the field, I carried it un-cocked with a chambered round. It's funny that I can still perfectly recall the click-click sound of a chambered round even though it's more than 35 years since I carried the pistol.

Did you work as a police officer post 9/11, perchance?

Before that, I'm don't think the police in my hometown were even required to wear their kevlar vests during their shift. Now it's mandatory.

 

[Module88]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

I don't get your logic here. By necessitating carrying one in the pipe by the general quick need to draw in an armed conflict, we can do away with the hoslters as well and say that keeping the gun in hand all the time shaves off a lot of unnecessary gun-drawing.

If gunfights were an ordinary part of a police officer's life, that'd probably be true. But that's not the case. What is the case is, as I mentioned, IF you do need your gun (which doesn't happen often, again), you REALLY need your gun, in which case, you'd probably want a round in the chamber. If you wanted to occupy a police officer's hand with something indefinitely, you'd probably be better off with a pen. He'd use it way more.

In most semiautomatics I've used, getting one into the chamber is a matter of less time than getting it out of the holster, even from the clearly visible hip. I'm not signing your assumption that the culture of firearm use is not relevant to the debate - I know in my country in the few occasions the cops actually pull their guns, they can spare the time to put one in the chamber well enough. In light of whatever statistics I can find at the moment, it doesn't seem to provoke the criminals that much, unlike your "criminal comfortability" argument seems to state.

There are always the people who don't believe in carrying a 1911 in condition one or carrying without a round in the pipe. Obviously I don't know all of them, but I have heard from some of them, who might have needed to use their sidearms, realize that, well, they didn't really have a sidearm with an empty chamber- they only had a hunk of metal. And in the stress of the moment, you aren't going to remember to chamber a round if you don't train that way

If you're going to have to carry with an empty chamber, then you have to train that way. EVERY time you draw, you should chamber a round. It's better practice IMO to just have a chambered round because there's enough other crap to worry about, but the defect can be slightly overcome with training.

It won't help if you need to use your second arm to keep an attacker back so you can draw, it won't help if your arm is injured or disabled and you need to draw, it won't help if you're already in the fight and your other had is already kind of busy, or if under stress you don't pull the slide all the way back or there's some other weapon related issue and so on, but those aren't things you can do much about if you choose to carry with an empty chamber.

Obviously the criminal comfortability argument isn't mine. It's just a response to Lorven's concern. I don't know why that is a concern, but I digress.

Far as drawing goes, that obviously depends significantly on the holster/carry method (and user skill, if I needed to mention that).

That would depend on how firmly you gripped it when you drew the weapon, presumably. If it's alright with you, I'll defer to my father's opinion (a police officer) on that matter.

Well you can always defer to your father's opinion. But I've trained the most on the XD platform and let me tell you, it's not that hard at all. I'm sure DZ will confirm here that the grip safety is really not a safety if you're holding the weapon. And quite frankly, if you're drawing or otherwise holding your gun, you're going to want a firm grip to begin with.

 

[WildBerry]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

There are always the people who don't believe in carrying a 1911 in condition one or carrying without a round in the pipe. Obviously I don't know all of them, but I have heard from some of them, who might have needed to use their sidearms, realize that, well, they didn't really have a sidearm with an empty chamber- they only had a hunk of metal. And in the stress of the moment, you aren't going to remember to chamber a round if you don't train that way

If you're going to have to carry with an empty chamber, then you have to train that way. EVERY time you draw, you should chamber a round. It's better practice IMO to just have a chambered round because there's enough other crap to worry about, but the defect can be slightly overcome with training.

It won't help if you need to use your second arm to keep an attacker back so you can draw, it won't help if your arm is injured or disabled and you need to draw, it won't help if you're already in the fight and your other had is already kind of busy, or if under stress you don't pull the slide all the way back or there's some other weapon related issue and so on, but those aren't things you can do much about if you choose to carry with an empty chamber.

Obviously the criminal comfortability argument isn't mine. It's just a response to Lorven's concern. I don't know why that is a concern, but I digress.

Far as drawing goes, that obviously depends significantly on the holster/carry method (and user skill, if I needed to mention that).

You were talking 1911 specifically? I missed that, sorry, I assumed you were speaking as if not chambering, regardless of the weapon make and model, is poor policy. Some of your arguments apply generally.

I'm not contesting you then, as I have little experience with that particular handgun.

 

[Dirty_Zulu]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

The grip safety on those models is an ironic term. In most guns, engaging the safety means the gun would not fire. In the XD, engaging the grip safety makes the gun hot. Not touching the grip safety actually puts the gun in the safe mode.

In the XD the grip safety is basically to protect a version of the accidental discharge. Such as when the trigger gets caught on an object. IMO it does very little to prevent 'unintentional' discharge when gripped.

In this instance, the officer made a series of errors. It's probably just very bad luck to have all circumstances made possible. He had a bullet in the chamber, he had the gun cocked, he engages (removes) the grip safety, and he put his finger on the trigger safety (removes it). All thinking it's his taser.

 

[Module88]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

You were talking 1911 specifically? I missed that, sorry, I assumed you were speaking as if not chambering, regardless of the weapon make and model, is poor policy. Some of your arguments apply generally.

Oh most certainly not. I only mention it as a specific example because KA brought it up. Perhaps my comment might not extend to revolvers (don't have a lot of experience with those), but in general, it's a bad policy to not have a round in the chamber. Obviously if the law or policy and procedures dictate you must, that's another issue. But if you have the choice, I think it's poor practice to not have a round in the chamber of your carry weapon (particularly when you're carrying it).

In this instance, the officer made a series of errors. It's probably just very bad luck to have all circumstances made possible. He had a bullet in the chamber, he had the gun cocked, he engages (removes) the grip safety, and he put his finger on the trigger safety (removes it). All thinking it's his taser.

I haven't watched the videos about the issue- what firearm did he have, exactly? I'd be awfully surprised if it was an XD, at least as a standard issue sidearm.

 

[PFSS]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

I wonder what the police report would have looked like if nobody got the shooting on tape.

 

[Johnny]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

It would have been pretty hard to explain why they shot him while he was on the ground even if there was no cameras.

 

[PFSS]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

It would have been pretty hard to explain why they shot him while he was on the ground even if there was no cameras.

"And then the suspect lunged and attempted to grab another officers firearm"

"When instructed to lie on the ground the suspect reached into his jacket and officer wossname believed there to be a threat and so responded to protect himself, his fellow officers and members of the public"

I mean - look at that Brazilian guy shot in London, the original police version of events was along the lines of:

'Mr Mendez was asked to stop, whereupon he ran from the police. He was wearing a bulky winter coat and ran straight for the London underground jumping over the ticket barriers before boarding the train with officers in pursuit'

When the camera evidence came out it showed the guy wearing (IIRC) a denim jacket, not being approached at all, calmly walking through the ticket barrier walking to the train before being bundled to the floor and filled with bullets.

 

[Johnny]

Re: Another dead unarmed Black man

"And then the suspect lunged and attempted to grab another officers firearm"

"When instructed to lie on the ground the suspect reached into his jacket and officer wossname believed there to be a threat and so responded to protect himself, his fellow officers and members of the public"

Except that it's very easy to see if someone was shot while being against something like the ground or a wall as opposed to standing up in a free area.