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An argument for mages

Discussion in 'Necromancer' started by Pherdnut, Jun 6, 2005.

  1. Pherdnut

    Pherdnut IncGamers Member

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    An argument for mages

    We've had a lot of mage vs. hybrid vs. revives or maxed this-or-that debates so I thought I'd throw in some numbers in support of mages. This is all basic addition so I don't think I'm screwing up the math this time. :uhhuh:

    Assume the following rich but semiconservative on the +skills gear setup that allows for other things that help promote survivability and actually being able to pick up gear:

    Harlequin Crest +2 all
    Mara's +2 all
    AoKL +2 Summon, +3 Skeleton Master, +2 Mages
    Any +2 all Armor
    Homonculus +2 all necro
    Another +1 all for one of the rings or belt whether it be a SoJ, BK, or Arachnid's
    Marrow's +2 Skeleton Mastery

    +5 Summons from skillers leaving some space left for other charms and picking up the occasional choice drop.

    With that setup I've got the following setup for mages from a calc.

    Mana cost: 45
    Number of skeletons: 14
    Poison damage: 337
    Poison duration: 600 Seconds
    Cold Damage: 221 - 224 (ø222.5)
    Cold Duration: 59 Seconds
    Fire damage: 391 - 395 (ø393)
    Lightning damage: 59 - 616 (ø337.5)
    Defense: 814
    Hit Points: 1342
    Resist lightning/cold/fire: 64%

    Now let's assume we have one poison mage and one ice mage and split the fire/lightning ones down the middle for 6/6.

    Outside of its ability to prevent heal for absurd durations the poison mage damage is negligible so I'm only adding the other three.

    So that's

    Ice - 1x222.5
    Fire - 6x393 ='s 2,358
    Lightning - 6x337.5 ='s 2,025

    Total: 4,605.5 damage if every single shot hits the same target along with prevent heal and slow from the ice. Between immunities and high resistances in Hell, you should probably drop the damage by about half for a conservative estimate but this is all without putting Lower Resist or a merc equipped with Infinity into the equation Against hard physical immunes mages will do swimmingly.

    With this skellie focused gear, Bonespear with 20 points in it and 34 synergies from the marrows and teeth does about 1,347 points of damage will probably end up hitting large groups a lot harder since the spear passes through targets and hits others and magic immunity is considerably rarer than the elemental immunes. Bone Spirit with 35 synergies averages at 1,767 points of damage and doesn't pierce enemies so I think the mages clearly win out here on overall damage since your casting isn't going to be fantastic with the gear mentioned.

    The remaining problem with Bonespear vs. mages however is that they are working constantly whereas between the cursing and the CEing, you're only going to be firing off those bonespears about 2/3rds to half the time if you're quick on the hotkeys, which is the main reason I'm still on the "mages first" side of the fence.

    The cool part is that you can have it all. With a minimalist skellie build at 46 points, 20 more in mages, and 20 more in bonespear, you're at 86 points. That's 14 more to give yourself some crowd control curses and decrepify, get a point in bone armor for a huge HP vs physical boost, and maybe dump a few more synergies into bonespear.

    The cool thing having Bone Spear on top of everything else is that it's really not a bad source of supplemental damage where bosses and exceptionally tough super uniques are concerned. Once you've gotten your curses in place against single tougher opponents, all that remains is to start helping your mages and warriors out by blasting away and occasionally stopping to drink a pot or refresh a curse. With only 30% FCR you will be getting two spears out a second (Trang's gloves and Arachnid's - done). That could get you up to about 3,000K damage a second with the extra synergies and some more +skills. Only Duriel has magic resistance in Hell whereas all the other bosses have at least one hefty resistance to one of the elemental resistances so against bosses your bonespear will become competetive against the mages' attacks and might add up to one or two more skeleton warriors worth of damage if you have the crazy auras going.

    So what am I saying here? I think I'm going to add in Bonespear to my next summoner build on top of mages. A skelliemancer with all the auras and an additional 20 points to the bone spear synergies will probably be a faster boss killer but I like the fact that mages keep going while I'm tending to other things like CE and cursing against large packs of monsters.

    There really just is no way to argue against revives, however. With the right ones you could certainly make bosses go down harder with CB but I simply don't like taking the time to grab the right ones and I hate the time limit on them. Also, I won't have enigma just yet, since I'll be focusing on the ladder RWs first so I don't even want to waste time on losing them to their idiotic pathfinding. Don't get me wrong. I love that temporary boost you get from picking up a pack of champion or unique minions-class monsters (the ones that follow them around), but I prefer monsters I can keep.

    Sigh... I think I overdid it again.
     
  2. Jek

    Jek IncGamers Member

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    Another bonus for mages is that IM wont wipe out all your meatshields in 1 second. :clap:

    I've personally also started to love the mages, and have begun on making a mage+warrior+mastery (I want a relative tuff Insight Iron golem) with Marrowwalks Bone Spear necro. :)
     
  3. Madcat

    Madcat IncGamers Member

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    I have started a new Necro and was unsure of how to go. After reading this thread, I think I have figured it out.

    However, I have a question in reference to PvP. Overall, how would this type of Necro fair?

    thx

    MC
     
  4. Pherdnut

    Pherdnut IncGamers Member

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    This isn't a build, just an attempt at continuing discussion concerning mages.

    However, I'm guessing they would be worthless for PvP unless you're planning on just baiting barbarians with them and cursing with Iron Maiden just as they whirl through a pack of mages (Damage return is done in full from minions rather than the usual reduced amount). You might be able to get semidecent damage with mages using LR and Infinity, but the projectiles are pretty slow and easily avoided. Furthermore mages are way too easy to kill. With obscene amounts of plus skill you might be able to make a might/Pride/Faith or Beast Skeleton Warrior build that's actually a threat in PvP but the mages just aren't going to be very effective.

    If you want skeletons and PvP, I would recommend making a marrow walked Bonemancer that puts 1 in skeleton mastery and 15-20 into skeletons. That way in PvM you have nice meatshield to keep your enemies occupied while you nail them with bone spell and have a perfectly viable PvP skill too. A poison skellimancer would work too but it takes some pretty nice gear to be a strong enough poisoner for PvP.
     
  5. batuchka

    batuchka IncGamers Member

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    Pherdnut: With lvl 33 prison synergy from marrows and assuming +11 to all necro skills the damage output from your bone spells (20 spirit/spear) would be as follows:

    Bone Spear : 1892 - 2002
    Bone Spirit : 2332 - 2501

    Which is consistent with my bone/summon necro when he was lower lvl and had not put points into bonewall and attained PnB GCs yet :D I like your idea too and mages aren't as useless as poeple make them out to be!

    Also in skill placement there are 2 possibilities the way i see it:

    1) Minion Heavy
    Max Skeleton Mastery
    Max Raise Mages
    Max Spear
    Max Spirit
    Rest into Raise Skeleton (since u have a lot of +summon tree)

    2) Bone Heavy
    Max Skeleton Mastery
    Max Raise Mages
    Max Spear
    Max Spirit
    Rest into Bone Wall (further synergise bone spells/armor with marrows)

    Also going through the gear you have stated the good news is that one could hit the 48fcr break point :D

    AOKL : 10fcr
    Arach's : 20fcr
    Trangs Gloves : 20fcr
    Total : 50fcr

    Also for the not so rich Mara's could be replaced by a +2necro/prismatic rare or crafted ammy and +2 all armors are either COH/Enigma/Arky so i am thinking a Vipermagi + 3%BK to make up for this. This would result in hitting 75fcr too hehe. With the possibility of having more improvement with Infinity and lower resist i can see its going to be a build that rock :D I agree that one ought to keep poison/cold mages to a minimum and have unsummon feature hotkeyed - so that ave elemental damage from mages is higher. I think you made a good point with the effort of coming up with dmg numbers with high lvl mages/mastery and i concur by checking it too hehe Cheers
     
  6. Pherdnut

    Pherdnut IncGamers Member

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    That's odd. I'm still getting the lower numbers. Used a calc but put 32 in prison and Wall plus one from Teeth to get the numbers for Spear.
     
  7. batuchka

    batuchka IncGamers Member

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    Oh i used the german weapon speed calculator and since they only allow 20 points just input 20 spirit, 20 spear and 20 prison and 13 teeth to simultate the effects of marrrows :D
    It's on the left of the website under 'Das Spiel' ---> Skill-Calc. Necromancer in german is 'Totenbeschwörer' Now i dunno german but that sounds kindda cool hehe. 'Schwierigkeitsgrad' means game mode and 'Holle' means Hell so one could estimate minions dmg/life too! 'Zu Herbeirufungszauber' means +skills and every tree has an individual one. I input 11 as per your choice of gear :D
    Just in case here's the linky :

    http://diablo2.ingame.de/tips/calcs/weaponspeed.php?lang=english

    In fact i find this so useful that i consult it for any chars to have ballpark damage estimates :p
     
  8. Pherdnut

    Pherdnut IncGamers Member

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    Ah, okay. I was comparing as if you only used twenty points into bonespear to get an idea of how only putting twenty points into mages would compare.
     
  9. Masas

    Masas IncGamers Member

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    Good job! Your mage calcs are fully correct.
    But Skelly Warriors are still better than mages!!!!!!11111111!!!!!!!1111!!!1111!1111!!!1!!!1!!!11!!
     
  10. Jek

    Jek IncGamers Member

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    LYKE OMGZONEONEONEEKZCLAMATIONMARKZ

    I've been testing mages in SP, I'm in love. They compliment each other so well, especially in places like Baal's throne room, man that's some wicked spamnage. :-D

    Anyone know how much HPs a Iron Golem should have to survive well in hell (with about 30 skeletons running around acting as decoys)?
    Merc with 4FPA and 75% Crushing Blow is just too sexy to give up for Insight, I'd love to have a Meditation golem that can survive.

    Sorry for hi-jack.
     
  11. Pherdnut

    Pherdnut IncGamers Member

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    Well, I think when all is said and done, skellie warriors have a higher damage potential than any other skill the necro possesses. They might not be great for PvP but with the right gear I'm sure they put bosses down faster than most would expect. I'm just suggesting that 20 points in mages is a good deal if you've already elected to make your skellies the prime killer of your build.
     

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