Americans in WW2?

lAmebAdger

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Americans in WW2?

And no need to mention the japanese military in China either (Nanjing).

Oh, and surely no need to mention like... every other major war in the history of the earth either...
 

Dondrei

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Americans in WW2?

I don't think there were obvious major victories of Americans over Nazis, after Normandy it turned into a war of attrition from what I recall.

But if you're asking about any allies then there's the Battle of Britain.

I know the Soviets pretty much raped nazis
I can only assume from your apparent lack of historical education that you don't understand how tasteless that is.

There was the whole "developing the nuclear bomb first" and "demonstrating it on Hiroshima". Even if that was the ENTIRE contribution made by American forces, they should still get the credit for ending the war.
The Japanese weren't Nazis.

Japan was done for, but they weren't willing to admit it yet. Japan was gearing up for a fight to the end, as they had done in other places. Had the bomb not been used, its certain the war would have continued at a great loss to both sides, potentially even worse than the bomb.

If I were in the position to drop the bomb or order an invasion, I would pull the trigger without hesitation. If I had been a world leader and gotten the bomb before berlin surrendered, berlin would have gotten it. It was just another weapon, and tbh far less destructive than the firebombings that had gone on earlier.
Dropping an atomic bomb on civilian targets to beat a foe who's no longer a threat to you - pretty much the biggest single act of cowardice in human history.

It's kind of like if you're getting shot at by a guy with a gun, then you shoot both his arms off, he runs into his house to hide and just in case he has a knife in there you petrol bomb his wife and children to make him surrender. It was only a handful of lives, who knows how many could've been lost if you went in there after him?

Had america droped an atomic bomb on central Europe then they could never have claimed any hero status for the war.
Well, the Allies got away with bombing Dresden.

So then why did they keep fighting for three days after the first bomb, including rejecting peace proposals? You are engaging in revisionist history, sir.
Three days? How long do you think it takes to process that information? It was unprecedented. They didn't even know if America had more bombs at that point, even once they began to accept reports that they'd made one. And the Japanese government hadn't even met to discuss Hiroshima before the bomb fell on Nagasaki.

Johnny:

Don't believe Hollywood. We won every field battle we were in there including the Tet Offensive, which virtually destroyed the Viet Cong along with any resistance in the South. About in every way except for militarily, Vietnam was a classic SNAFU; however, strictly in that aspect, we kicked butt.
You won every field battle in a guerilla war? Hmm, think I can spot the mentality that lost you the war there cowboy.

What about Italy and Japan?
They cooperated.

these days are my last shot at affecting change before I vanish forever

I can promise I won't miss you garbad
If you go then I'll only have the flamewars playing on a loop and Johnny occasionally saying something hilariously *****y to entertain me.



 

lAmebAdger

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Americans in WW2?

@dondrei: OR you could participate outside the OTF?

... just kidding, you probably have a reason to post in this here strongly polarised forum


aimed at no one in particular:

i generally find claiming hero status for a war a bit tasteless too, albeit less tasteless than saying some country got raped by another country...
 

Garbad_the_Weak

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Americans in WW2?

Dropping an atomic bomb on civilian targets to beat a foe who's no longer a threat to you

....

Three days? How long do you think it takes to process that information? It was unprecedented. They didn't even know if America had more bombs at that point, even once they began to accept reports that they'd made one. And the Japanese government hadn't even met to discuss Hiroshima before the bomb fell on Nagasaki.
When wars are primarily determined by civilians in factories, I'm not sure what the fuss is about noncombatants. And by what insane measure do you imagine the Japanese weren't a threat? And yes, they had met, discussed, attempted to set terms, then buckled after later events.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki#Hiroshima



 

Ash Housewares

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Americans in WW2?

dondrei doesn't know enough about world war 2 for me to bother responding to anything he posts here, you had your chance

ps - most of the rest of you have earned similar status with this thread
 

Dondrei

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Americans in WW2?

When wars are primarily determined by civilians in factories, I'm not sure what the fuss is about noncombatants.
That's the worst excuse for war crimes I've ever heard.

And by what insane measure do you imagine the Japanese weren't a threat? And yes, they had met, discussed, attempted to set terms, then buckled after later events.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki#Hiroshima
You'd destroyed their navy and air force, they're an island, of course they weren't a ****ing threat to you (except insofar as anything seems to be a big enough threat to America to make it wet its pants). What were they going to do, throw paper airplanes at you over the Pacific?

And you're wrong, I see your wikipedia and raise you more wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_surrender#August_8.E2.80.939_:_Soviet_invasion_and_Nagasaki

News of Nagasaki arrived right in the middle of their meeting.

P.S. Your own article states that the Japanese were already prepared to surrender after Hiroshima, they were just trying to make it conditional. You've retreated from saying they were never going to surrender to saying they were attempting to set terms... the monsters!



 

Garbad_the_Weak

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Americans in WW2?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki
Some historians see ancient Japanese warrior traditions as a major factor in the resistance in the Japanese military to the idea of surrender. According to one Air Force account,

"The Japanese code of bushido — "the way of the warrior" — was deeply ingrained. The concept of Yamato-damashii equipped each soldier with a strict code: never be captured, never break down, and never surrender. Surrender was dishonorable. Each soldier was trained to fight to the death and was expected to die before suffering dishonor. Defeated Japanese leaders preferred to take their own lives in the painful samurai ritual of seppuku (called hara kiri in the West.). Warriors who surrendered were not deemed worthy of regard or respect."[7]

Japanese militarism was aggravated by the Great Depression, and had resulted in countless assassinations of reformers attempting to check military power, among them Takahashi Korekiyo, Sait? Makoto, and Inukai Tsuyoshi. This created an environment in which opposition to war was a much riskier endeavor.[27]

According to historian Richard B. Frank

"The intercepts of Japanese Imperial Army and Navy messages disclosed without exception that Japan's armed forces were determined to fight a final Armageddon battle in the homeland against an Allied invasion. The Japanese called this strategy Ketsu Go (Operation Decisive). It was founded on the premise that American morale was brittle and could be shattered by heavy losses in the initial invasion. American politicians would then gladly negotiate an end to the war far more generous than unconditional surrender."[28]

The U.S. Department of Energy's history of the Manhattan Project lends some credence to these claims, saying that military leaders in Japan

".... also hoped that if they could hold out until the ground invasion of Japan began, they would be able to inflict so many casualties on the Allies that Japan still might win some sort of negotiated settlement."[29]

While some members of the civilian leadership did use covert diplomatic channels to attempt peace negotiation, they could not negotiate surrender or even a cease-fire. Japan could legally enter into a peace agreement only with the unanimous support of the Japanese cabinet, and in the summer of 1945, the Japanese Supreme War Council, consisting of representatives of the Army, the Navy and the civilian government, could not reach a consensus on how to proceed.[27]

A political stalemate developed between the military and civilian leaders of Japan, the military increasingly determined to fight despite all costs and odds and the civilian leadership seeking a way to negotiate an end to the war. Further complicating the decision was the fact that no cabinet could exist without the representative of the Imperial Japanese Army. This meant that the Army and the Navy could veto any decision by having its Minister resign, thus making it the most powerful posts on the SWC. In early August 1945 the cabinet was equally split between those who advocated an end to the war on one condition, the preservation of the Kokutai, and those who insisted on three other conditions : leave disarmament and demobilization to Imperial General Headquarters, no occupation and delegation to Japanese government of the punishment of war criminals[30] The "hawks" consisted of General Korechika Anami, General Yoshijiro Umezu and Admiral Soemu Toyoda and were led by Anami. The "doves" consisted of Prime Minister Kantaro Suzuki, Naval Minister Mitsumasa Yonai and Minister of Foreign Affairs Shigenori Togo and were led by Togo.[27] Under special permission of the Emperor Sh?wa (Hirohito), the president of the Privy council, Kiichiro Hiranuma, was also a member of the imperial conference. For him, the preservation of the Kokutai implied not only that of the Imperial institution but also the continuation of the emperor's reign.[31]

Japan had an example of unconditional surrender in the German Instrument of Surrender. On 26 July, Truman and other allied leaders issued The Potsdam Declaration outlining terms of surrender for Japan. The declaration stated that "The alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction." It was rejected. The Emperor, who was waiting for a Soviet reply to Japanese peace feelers, made no move to change the government position.[32] In the PBS documentary "Victory in the Pacific" (2005), broadcast in the "American Experience" series, the historian Donald Miller argues that in the days after the declaration, the Emperor seemed more concerned with moving the Imperial Regalia of Japan to a secure location than he was with "the destruction of his country." This comment is based on the declarations made by the Emperor to Koichi Kido on 25 and 31 July 1945, when he ordered the Lord Keeper of the Privy Seal of Japan to protect "at all cost" the Imperial Regalia.[33]

It has sometimes been argued that Japan would have surrendered if simply guaranteed that the Emperor would be allowed to continue as formal head of state. However, Japanese diplomatic messages regarding a possible Soviet mediation — intercepted through Magic, and made available to Allied leaders — have been interpreted by some historians to mean that "the dominant militarists insisted on preservation of the old militaristic order in Japan, the one in which they ruled."[28] They also faced potential death sentences in trials for Japanese war crimes if they surrendered.[10] This was also what occurred in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East and other tribunals.

Professor of history Robert James Maddox wrote that "Another myth that has attained wide attention is that at least several of Truman’s top military advisers later informed him that using atomic bombs against Japan would be militarily unnecessary or immoral, or both. There is no persuasive evidence that any of them did so. None of the Joint Chiefs ever made such a claim, although one inventive author has tried to make it appear that Leahy did by braiding together several unrelated passages from the admiral’s memoirs. Actually, two days after Hiroshima, Truman told aides that Leahy had 'said up to the last that it wouldn’t go off.'" "Neither MacArthur nor Nimitz ever communicated to Truman any change of mind about the need for invasion or expressed reservations about using the bombs. When first informed about their imminent use only days before Hiroshima, MacArthur responded with a lecture on the future of atomic warfare and even after Hiroshima strongly recommended that the invasion go forward. Nimitz, from whose jurisdiction the atomic strikes would be launched, was notified in early 1945. 'This sounds fine,' he told the courier, 'but this is only February. Can’t we get one sooner?'" "The best that can be said about Eisenhower’s memory is that it had become flawed by the passage of time." "Notes made by one of Stimson’s aides indicate that there was a discussion of atomic bombs, but there is no mention of any protest on Eisenhower’s part."[34]

Maddox also wrote that "Even after both bombs had fallen and Russia entered the war, Japanese militants insisted on such lenient peace terms that moderates knew there was no sense even transmitting them to the United States. Hirohito had to intervene personally on two occasions during the next few days to induce hardliners to abandon their conditions. . . . That the militarists would have accepted such a settlement before the bombs is farfetched, to say the least."[34]

Another argument by Tsuyoshi Hasegawa is that it was the Soviet declaration of war in the days between the bombings that caused the surrender. Other scholars disagree.[35][36][37]

The "one condition" faction, led by Togo, seized on the bombing as decisive justification of surrender. K?ichi Kido, one of Emperor Hirohito's closest advisers, stated: "We of the peace party were assisted by the atomic bomb in our endeavor to end the war." Hisatsune Sakomizu, the chief Cabinet secretary in 1945, called the bombing "a golden opportunity given by heaven for Japan to end the war."[38]
WIKI OWNED
 

lAmebAdger

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Americans in WW2?

Ash Housewares said:
make it stop
pointless,

wiki is going to be prolific here merely because ppl here seem to consider it as the holy grail of information...
 

lAmebAdger

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Americans in WW2?

and i've been in the blizzard forums long enough to know what forumites are like.

arguments without backing and discussions based on wiki, i'm not that new to game-based forums in general


sorry if i burst your bubble
 

sevencreature

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Americans in WW2?

lAmebAdger: But why bother stating obvious then?

Anyway seems that history classes in US and EU are apparently a bit different (we have learned that nuking of Japan was not absolutely necessary for them to surrender - though nobody was saying US were 'bad' guys, on the contrary).

Well, not us morally superior americans. We paid our french prostitutes. =)
Hmm, that would explain the "incidents" in Japan - too few French prostitutes there I guess :scratchchin:



 

lAmebAdger

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Americans in WW2?

my mistake... withdrawing


(well, history is taught differently across all continents i guess... for example: even though they're geographically very close, China and Japan have had several disputes over what they write in thier history books, in the end: to each their own version)
 

BobCox2

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Americans in WW2?

it's my impression, i don't see how you can affect change here
See you can make a change in Wikipedia, it's just that if the verifiable information does not support it, it gets deleted, and input is worldwide.


 
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