Americans in WW2?

[Garbad_the_Weak]

Re: Americans in WW2?

I had no time to answer and meanwhile the thread draft(?) off in a very different direction.
But i like it!
Very interesting discussion.

And I think ill throw in my controversal view

So we have all those previous attempts of suppressing a nation. From defeated nazi germany to todays eastern conflicts.
We see most of them failed aside of germany. Why? What was different in germany?
Krischan brought up the well known thingy bout germans having mostly accepted their wrongdoings and allies having done a great job with a well tailored constitution. Does make sense so far.
BUT, if you ask a guy from the street in Afghanistan what he thinks of Taliban. He will most likely condemn it. Sincere, intelligent guy. The US brought them new constitution. Everything to start anew. But guess what as soon as last forein soldier leaves afghanistan it will be all back like in the old days. You can say its cuz of the history and culture of those people, but i think its totally wrong. Afghans aint that different that they would prefere a knout(?) over a nice life.
No Krischan, your view doesnt explain it. Its too theoretical. Ofcourse you are right but what you named is not essential. You overlook a single deciesive factor. Most deceisive factor in human bahavier.
FEAR.
The only way to really rule over a forein nation is by fear. Think about it. It all will make sense.
The germans had the text book bad cop good cop strategy tested on them. They FEARED the russians. The rumor spread russians would kill and rape and enslave everybody. Where the russians took stance, millions were departed to siberia.
You know how Gulag found out about the troublemalers? They imprisoned EVERY suspect. Forced him (by torture) to write down like 20 names of his comrades. This way 99% of people who were sent to siberia were completly innocent. But it spread FEAR. Fear to in any way endanger yourself and your family. People in eastern germany instantly adepted and went really quite and communist. People in western germany were so glad they didnt have the commies on their back, they embraced the (good cop) Allied troops.
Look, both brutal dictatorships, nazi germany and soviet union had no problems with uprisings at all! All people "LOVED" the official ways. Its normal. Its human and its a fact.

The same scheme is still valid. Humane western powers totally fail at "persuading" people. No matter how hard they try. As long as the Talibs can come back the people will fear and give in. It may be a possible solution by the way to devide afghanistan into taliban/democratic parts. This may save at least one part. It worked with germany and korea.

Why separate?
Becouse if the fear comes from within the country, it overpowers the people they cannot feel safe and they give in to the fear. If the source of fear is behind a border, people are working together. Its simple. Just like in prehistoric times. A danger from outside creates strong bonds. A danger from within tears people apart.

Except for when it worked, of course. Such as pretty much all of western Europe, who tossed out their traditional monarchies in favor of US style government for good. Seems to me we convinced the people who matter the most, and the little countries may still come around. If not, we still have nukes.

 

[maccool]

Re: Americans in WW2?

Just can anybody name any significant battle americans/allies won against nazis in ww2?

The firebombing of Dresden was a success. Was that a battle? It made for a good book.

 

[llad12]

Re: Americans in WW2?

The firebombing of Dresden was a success. Was that a battle? It made for a good book.

Nobody ****s around with Paul Lazzaro!!

 

[PFSS]

Re: Americans in WW2?

Except for when it worked, of course. Such as pretty much all of western Europe, who tossed out their traditional monarchies in favor of US style government for good. Seems to me we convinced the people who matter the most, and the little countries may still come around. If not, we still have nukes.

Which 'European' countries are you referring to?

France? The UK? Germany?

 

[lAmebAdger]

Re: Americans in WW2?

@galabab, controversial indeed, hope your not intolerant for other views, because i disagree

and allies having done a great job with a well tailored constitution.

the german constitution has always been made and tailored by the germans themselves. the first time it looked good, but turned out to have flaws. the second time is what they have today

the major influence on these constitutions has always been the french revolution, NOT the american constitution, contrary to whatever garbad may think
(europeans generally don't look west over the Atlantic when they need a constitution, they look at things like the code civile, which came from Napoleon because he thought it would profit his image, if he took over elements from the french revolution (egalite, liberte, fraternite) )

Afghans aint that different that they would prefere a knout(?) over a nice life.

i agree

No Krischan, your view doesnt explain it.

it makes sense: why would the taliban ever change, if you can't change their minds and make them accept their wrong? why would any more extreme islamists change if you don'T do that? his view explains a lot

Most deceisive factor in human bahavier.
FEAR.

oh, but i'm sure others can have the influence fear has, like love or hate. in fact, fear originates in love and hate sometimes originates in fear! (fear of losing what you love, fear of abominable people)

They FEARED the russians. The rumor spread russians would kill and rape and enslave everybody. Where the russians took stance, millions were departed to siberia.
You know how Gulag found out about the troublemalers? They imprisoned EVERY suspect. Forced him (by torture) to write down like 20 names of his comrades. This way 99% of people who were sent to siberia were completly innocent. But it spread FEAR. Fear to in any way endanger yourself and your family. People in eastern germany instantly adepted and went really quite and communist. People in western germany were so glad they didnt have the commies on their back, they embraced the (good cop) Allied troops.

well, fear's one factor why the west developed so well, of course the other factor would be the people themselves actually wanting to do well (!)

too bad nowadays americans are more the moderately good cops... people will never abandon extremist islamic views because of fear, and they might never embrace america either (decadent western society with all their macdonalds and porno, and all those accusations, you know)

nazi germany had no problems with uprisings at all! All people "LOVED" the official ways. Its normal. Its human and its a fact.

under the curtain it wasn't loved by all, nor was it difficult to get rid of these despicable ideals once it was all over. why? because it's not normal, it's not human. that's why.

Humane western powers totally fail at "persuading" people. No matter how hard they try. As long as the Talibs can come back the people will fear and give in.

this makes sense to me :wink:

It may be a possible solution by the way to devide afghanistan into taliban/democratic parts. This may save at least one part. It worked with germany and korea.

may? more like may not...
look at the split germany and look at the split korea, now tell me if you consider them as "working"
korea should try to bring down its own "berlin wall"... relatives live on both sides, humanely speaking, it's a mess, that does not work

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Johnny basically implied that we lost because the Vietnamese soldiers were better: tougher, more dedicated, etc. Nothing could be further from the truth.

i don't know the facts, but from what i gather on the info in these posts
at the moment, the situation seems more like this:
the vietnamese were generally more dedicated and tougher, since the US chickened out and the communists fought on
in the battles themselves, the US in fact did not need to be as tough as the vietnamese, because they had superior weapon technology, thereby creating the need for the vietnamese to be tougher

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who tossed out their traditional monarchies in favor of US style government for good.

see my reply to the first galabab quote in this post,... Americans deserve a lot of credit, but they shouldn't get this kind of credit too

Seems to me we convinced the people who matter the most, and the little countries may still come around

who matters the most is the people, not America the country

and the little countries may still come around. If not, we still have nukes.

about to nuke iran/north korea, are ya? i'm sure that would make you real popular

 

[Garbad_the_Weak]

Re: Americans in WW2?

Which 'European' countries are you referring to?

France? The UK? Germany?

Yes. Each of those nations abandoned their kings and tribes and adopted american government. And no, it wasn't the french revolution. Compare current euro ideas to french revolution ideas or to US revolution ideas and this will be clear.

about to nuke iran/north korea, are ya? i'm sure that would make you real popular

Isn't your whole theme Caligula's motto? Let them hate, as long as they fear?

 

[lAmebAdger]

Re: Americans in WW2?

o, but it clearly developed out of the french revolution, even though the ideas presently may differ a bit
also, you might wanna take a second look at the code civile

and what was that about "Let them hate, as long as they fear?" being my whole theme? i don't see how that, be it my theme or not, would relate to the US using its nukes instead of just having them


also, i don't think you're aware that the british very well managed to get into a parliament friendly constitution as they have it today on their own (on their own, they did not need america for that, what matters most, is again the people, the british)

 

[Galabab]

Re: Americans in WW2?

@KilerAim:
Interesting point man. Italy and japan. Well for japan to find the fear part is easy, its the bomb.
The only factor which can SOMEHOW fight fear is ideology.
The italian nazi ideology cramped as "low" eastern races proved to be better within nazi ideology which said that only the stronger race is worth living on.

it makes sense: why would the taliban ever change, if you can't change their minds and make them accept their wrong? why would any more extreme islamists change if you don'T do that? his view explains a lot

I dont believe in taliban ideology being essentially stronger than the nazis. If the nazis could be forced to "realize" they were wrong, so can taliban.

well, fear's one factor why the west developed so well, of course the other factor would be the people themselves actually wanting to do well (!)

Right, the people in the east didnt want to do well.

under the curtain it wasn't loved by all, nor was it difficult to get rid of these despicable ideals once it was all over. why? because it's not normal, it's not human. that's why.

Did I write love? No i wrote "love". Fear is human.

may? more like may not...
look at the split germany and look at the split korea, now tell me if you consider them as "working"
korea should try to bring down its own "berlin wall"... relatives live on both sides, humanely speaking, it's a mess, that does not work

Well it DID work peace-wise and economicly for a half respectivly.

 

[Garbad_the_Weak]

Re: Americans in WW2?

I dont believe in taliban ideology being essentially stronger than the nazis. If the nazis could be forced to "realize" they were wrong, so can taliban.

The Nazis didn't realize they were wrong, they lost the war. But for that matter, the Nazis didn't necessarily convince the majority of germans they were right, they just bullied everyone (although I imagine a pretty large percent of germans agreed with at least the basics of nazi ideology in 1939). Most people will always value their safety over some ideology.

The point is, trying to convince people they are wrong is almost always futile, both on the internets and in the meat. What matters is the power to compel. Not only military compulsion, economic or social works just fine (a good example of economically forcing an ideology is the triumph of capitalism over communism; an example of socially forcing an idea is the *** rights movement forcing its legitimacy and acceptance in the US where 25 years ago it was universally condemned ).

If we won't nuke the deserts to force it militarily, let's bribe some leaders into preaching that your 74 virgins will all be fat *****ing cows, and not worth dying for. Let's compel their culture to shame the radicals into ceasing resistance the same way germany stomps down on anyone approaching nazism.

 

[jmervyn]

Re: Americans in WW2?

Johnny:

The difference being that we were out of Vietnam for two years before that happened. Even if you wanted to pin the loss on the failure of our training the South Vietnamese to handle their own battles, we basically stopped supporting them in the last year before the takeover.

Johnny's not enough of a moron to believe in the claims he made. Aren't you the one who said "don't feed the trolls"?

 

[lAmebAdger]

Re: Americans in WW2?

I dont believe in taliban ideology being essentially stronger than the nazis. If the nazis could be forced to "realize" they were wrong, so can taliban.

and you actually just supported my post by supporting krischan's view that people's minds have to be changed to change anything, thereby supporting my notion that krischan's view makes sense, thereby supporting the part of my post you quoted which had the purpose of showing why it made sense and thereby going against the implication in your previous post that krischan's view doesn't apply

Right, the people in the east didnt want to do well.

that'S bull, of course they do, and i did not say anything against them doing it either.

Well it DID work peace-wise and economicly for a half respectivly.

is a plate loaded with half rotten fish and eggs and other half delicious italian risotto a proper (working) meal? no.
this is NOT a solution

EDIT: nothing personal, i just realised my post has a grumpy atmosphere to it... ignore it if you can


@jmervyn: i believe ash was the one who said that

 

[Galabab]

Re: Americans in WW2?

@Garbad:
Once again my quation signs led to confusion. Im totally agreeing with you, you can rarely really persuade people. Thats why the whole concept of fear. The part you quated was also meant that way. Only by fear could nazis be forced to give up.
But i disagree on you about soviet union being economicly defeated. You know HOW very economicly ****ed soviet union was in the 30ies?
You can actually apply my theory of fear again. Had Gorbachov or Jeltsin been as ruthless as Stalin, soviet union would still be there.
I mean Gorbachov loosened the grip and it was humane and right but he let the pressure of fear fade and ideology without fear eventually dissipated.

and you actually just supported my post by supporting krischan's view that people's minds have to be changed to change anything, thereby supporting my notion that krischan's view makes sense, thereby supporting the part of my post you quoted which had the purpose of showing why it made sense and thereby going against the implication in your previous post that krischan's view doesn't apply

Nope, you once again didnt understand me cuz you ignore quating signs. Read again. Krischan thinks you can persuade people who follow an idiology.
I agree on the theoretical level but practically i believe only "persuasion" by fear is possible.

that'S bull, of course they do, and i did not say anything against them doing it either.

Well I pointed out the fear as essential and you bring up something totally not essential cuz its a factor found everywhere. So you can devide the quation by this factor to eliminate it you know what i mean...

is a plate loaded with half rotten fish and eggs and other half delicious italian risotto a proper (working) meal? no.
this is NOT a solution

Well this may be up to everybody to decide. For me i rather have half the people wealthy and free than nobody.

 

[lAmebAdger]

Re: Americans in WW2?

Nope, you once again didnt understand me cuz you ignore quating signs. Read again. Krischan thinks you can persuade people who follow an idiology.
I agree on the theoretical level but practically i believe only "persuasion" by fear is possible.

1. what are quating signs?
2.

Germany after WW2 was completely different. Most people accepted that it was their fault and that killing the Jews etc. was a terrible crime (well, not all of them admitted to that and most didn't really want to talk or hear about it). Also, the US is culturally much nearer to Germany than to most other countries of the world, including most of Europe.

After WW1, people were convinced that it was as well the fault of the others, so any attempts to change something by outside force would have had a far lower chance of success. The Versailles treaty, the demilitarization of the Rhineland and the restrictions on the army were considered as unjust and a great humiliation, not just by right wing diehards, but by maybe 75% of the population and it produced a lot of hate, in particular towards France.

I'm just repeating what people thought about the issue after WW1, it might not be my own opinion BTW - a few people often confuse that

read that, and nope he doesn't say anywhere that you can persuade people who follow an ideology... he says as long as people follow an idea, it'll be hard for you to do anything about it as foreign power, and he also says that only if people are convinced that "this" side is right, then they will be on their way to change
what you have just claimed about his post is not what i see here

Well I pointed out the fear as essential and you bring up something totally not essential cuz its a factor found everywhere. So you can devide the quation by this factor to eliminate it you know what i mean...

1. you mean equation, right?
2. just because its found everywhere doesn't make water non-essential for a friggin lot of things
3. wanting to do well is in fact essential and can be considered as a force that is just as powerful as that of fear, if not more powerful

Well this may be up to everybody to decide. For me i rather have half the people wealthy and free than nobody.

tell that to berlin, especially to anyone who has lived in berlin for the last 50 or so years, you do not know the pain of separation
also, try telling them that nobody in their city is wealthy

 

[Galabab]

Re: Americans in WW2?

@lamebadger:

1.What are those called? ----> """""""""""
2."most people accepted..." this part i interpreted as krischan understanding them being persuaded. They didnt accept it before the war was ended but after this they did, so its only logical to understand Krischan that way.
Again only with dissipation of fear before nazis you can understand why nazi ideology could scatter. They didnt just accept it as wrong. Ok?
3.yea i meant equation lol
4. I dont see how the will of people to live good is any essential for the discussion why people in the west flourished.
5. Sure it would be great to have all people happy. Im open to any ideas.

 

[Garbad_the_Weak]

Re: Americans in WW2?

@Garbad:
Once again my quation signs led to confusion. Im totally agreeing with you, you can rarely really persuade people. Thats why the whole concept of fear. The part you quated was also meant that way. Only by fear could nazis be forced to give up.
But i disagree on you about soviet union being economicly defeated. You know HOW very economicly ****ed soviet union was in the 30ies?
You can actually apply my theory of fear again. Had Gorbachov or Jeltsin been as ruthless as Stalin, soviet union would still be there.
I mean Gorbachov loosened the grip and it was humane and right but he let the pressure of fear fade and ideology without fear eventually dissipated.



Nope, you once again didnt understand me cuz you ignore quating signs. Read again. Krischan thinks you can persuade people who follow an idiology.
I agree on the theoretical level but practically i believe only "persuasion" by fear is possible.



Well I pointed out the fear as essential and you bring up something totally not essential cuz its a factor found everywhere. So you can devide the quation by this factor to eliminate it you know what i mean...




Well this may be up to everybody to decide. For me i rather have half the people wealthy and free than nobody.

To a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I suspect you are falling prey to confirmation bias.

 

[Nazdakka]

Re: Americans in WW2?

Yes. Each of those nations abandoned their kings and tribes and adopted american government. And no, it wasn't the french revolution. Compare current euro ideas to french revolution ideas or to US revolution ideas and this will be clear.

*Ahem*

I can't speak for Germany or France, but the English and Scottish parliaments that combined in 1707 to form the Parliament of Great Britain both date back to the 13th century. So... about 3 times as old as the current American nation?

 

[Ash Housewares]

Re: Americans in WW2?

its based on the greeks too, if you want to get real snotty

 

[Tanooki]

Re: Americans in WW2?

England, Scotland, Ireland.. how's that whole "united kingdom" working out?

 

[PFSS]

Re: Americans in WW2?

Yes. Each of those nations abandoned their kings and tribes and adopted american government.

What the **** are they teaching American kids in school these days?!

The French got rid of their own monarchy about 150 years before WW2. The Germans got rid of theirs at the end of WW1 and the Brits still have theirs, but in a form of government that the American government was modeled after.

And no, it wasn't the french revolution. Compare current euro ideas to french revolution ideas or to US revolution ideas and this will be clear.

Can you explain how the EU government is similar to the US government.

England, Scotland, Ireland.. how's that whole "united kingdom" working out?

Ireland isn't in the UK, Northern Ireland has calmed down lately, the Welsh seem alright with it as long as they're allowed to talk in a funky language and have their own state government and the Scots are shuffling away from independence after realizing that they can't balance their budget without the money they get from England.

 

[TheNix]

Re: Americans in WW2?

...and the Scots are shuffling away from independence after realizing that they can't balance their budget without the money they get from England.

True, but the average Scot would rather stick a knife in an Englishman than any other nationality.