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"All who oppose me: beware." My Bone Prison/Iron Maiden build

Discussion in 'Necromancer' started by Naja, Mar 30, 2005.

  1. Naja

    Naja IncGamers Member

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    "All who oppose me: beware." My Bone Prison/Iron Maiden build

    Hello friends, I am in the process of conducting an experiment to take advantage of the Bone Prison and the Iron Maiden curse.

    Granted, Iron Maiden is pretty ineffectual once you get past normal, but wait and see, wait and see, wait and see.


    For this build, it's obvious that I would have Mara's Kaleidoscope, any + 1 all skills helm, Enigma Armor (or Que Hegan's Wisdom w. Perfect Skull), 2 Stones of Jordan, Death's Web (if I can find the bloody thing!), Homunculus, And Trang's Claws and Girth. Not to mention a Hexing and Fungal Grand Charm, if you have the space.


    Skills:

    Teeth = 18
    Corpse Explosion = 1
    Bone Armor = 9
    Bone Wall = 20
    Bone Prison = 20
    Bone Spear = 1
    Bone Spirit = 14

    Amplify Damage = 1
    Weaken = 1
    Iron Maiden = 20!! (you'll see why in a minute)
    Life Tap = 1
    Terror = 1
    Decrepify = 1
    Lower Resist = 1


    Besides the lofty bone synergies to get a nice 1000+ Bone Spirit for all the physical immunes out there, with all of the + skills you will have (+1 to all Helm, Enigma's + 2 all, SoJs' + 2 to all, Death's Web's + 2 to all, Homunculus' + 2 to all AND + 2 to curses, Mara's Kaleidoscope's + 2 to all, Trang'Oul's Claws' + 2 to curses, and that Hexing Grand charm will give you a whopping + 16 to curses!! Not to mention some very strong Bone Prisons, especially so in Hell difficulty). Up until the middle of Nightmare difficulty before your Prisons' power and your Iron Maiden starts pulling its weight, you're going to have to survive off of your Bone Spirit nearly-exclusively. This is convenient however, because by that middle of the road point, you can simply alternate between Bone Prison and Iron Maiden, since the former is an obvious Bone Spirit synergy. Once you get to what I'm going to describe next, theoretically, you should only exclusively need your Spirit for ranged attackers and physical immunes.

    Why all of the focus on Iron Maiden, you say? With one skill point being a +25% damage returned, with it maxed out and + 16, your Iron Maiden will return + 1075% of damage!! Now, granted, Hell difficulty monsters often times have physical resistance, and their hit points FAR exceed their physical damage. But here's the great thing that's so obvious to all you gents out there in Necro land - Bone Prison becomes RIDICULOUSLY low mana to cast once you really crank it up to a high level; let alone when + items further augment it. I'll give an example of this effectiveness:


    A Siege Beast in Hell difficulty does approximately 250+ physical damage, has about 16,000 hit points, and is 50% physically resistant. "Holy crap!", we are tempted to utter! But fear not! Your bone prisons, fully levelled up, fully synergized, and with + items are well above 3000 hit points, not to mention less than 5 mana to cast. With our handy-dandy 1000+ Iron Maiden curse on Mr. Siege Beast, he -would be- doing 2750 (2500+250) damage back to himself with each blow. But since he is 50% immune, he would be only doing 1500 (1250+250) damage back onto himself. Still, that isn't TOO bad, if you look at things in perspective: his attacks against the wall are still only 250, and this means that it can survive over 10 hits from Mr. Siege Beast before shattering, rewarding him with roughly 15,000 in physical damage - nearly all of his life. With another cast of his prison or a Bone Spirit, Mr. Siege Beast becomes a corpse in a matter of effortless minutes on your part.

    However, Mr. Siege Beast is quite the party animal (literally!), and always seems to stamp around the snow with his demonic brethren herd. However again, this isn't too bad in the grand scheme of things: your Bone Prisons will be insanely cheap to cast and re-cast by this point, your Iron Maiden curse should last almost 2 minutes by now, and Iron Maiden is always a laughable 5 mana to cast. Besides from being impervious to anything breaking through the lines like sometimes happens when you're a minion Necro, you can simply keep redecorating your lovely abode while every melee monster is off doing your work for you. If anything, groups of melee herds are a blessing in disguise - your Corpse Explosion spell at this point should have a + 5 radius. You can re-imprison your unwitting guests while you cast Amplify Damage on them (which conveniently also has a nice radius by this time) and bombs away!!

    Convenient, safe, LETHARGIC, and mana efficient, but simply taking a lot of time and a lot of elite items to fully realize.

    Of course, this is just in the theorizing stage. I'm only beginning to make this guy happen. But what think you guys of my delightful experiment?
     
  2. Chimaira

    Chimaira IncGamers Member

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    This sounds like a fun build...but you really need to be patient....A suggestion would be trying an act 2 thorns aura merc with amplify damage. I'm not sure how high a lvl his aura would be but a lvl 20 Thorns aura will return 1010% damage, almost as good as your Iron Maiden, but coupled with Amplify Damage....
     
  3. Boqu

    Boqu IncGamers Member

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    1. what are you going to do with those possessed monsters that can't be cursed?
    2. what about those with range attack and elemental attack? I guess IM can't reflect fire dmg.
    3. what are you going to do with ghost kind of monsters? bone prison can't stop them, seems.
    4. and, how about those who can teleport? and using fire dmg?
     
  4. Necrochild313

    Necrochild313 IncGamers Member

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    Thorns + Amp can be a deadly combo, but it doesn't effect bone walls/prisons.

    I think that's the point of his bone skills.
     
  5. Pherdnut

    Pherdnut IncGamers Member

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    Would bramble armor and a faith bow combine auras in the same manner that the item granted holy elemental damage auras of paladins do? You may not even need a thorns merc and you could summon spirit of Barbs too.

    I would recommend just making a marrow walked bonemancer and putting your extra 20 into iron maiden while using walls instead of prison. That way you'll have a perfectly nasty option to take when the damage return portion of the build isn't working out so well. That or make a skelliemancer and rely on the skeletons to take the hits rather than prison since amp amage will always give you an alternative attack that you can rely on.
     
  6. sad

    sad IncGamers Member

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    I don't know if this would work too well. I had my poison/summon hybrid try to return damage for a while to see if it would work, and it didn't work that great. I had:
    lvl 12 Iron Maiden 475% Damage Returned
    lvl 17 thorns 890% Damage Returned
    lvl 13 spirit of barbs 290% Damage Returned

    That adds up to 1655% damage returned. That is quite a bit higher than your maxed Iron Maiden alone, and I still couldn't get monsters to beat themselves to death on gumby (within a reasonable amount of time.) I only tried this in hell, but It would have taken a ridiculous amount of time to get through it. It was fun being a sadist though.
     
  7. Naja

    Naja IncGamers Member

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    I could be wrong, but last time I checked, Iron Maiden and Thorns/Spirit of Barbs don't stack.
     
  8. sunbearie

    sunbearie IncGamers Member

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    The thorns aura would stack.

    What I'm interested in is whether monster regen would negate the damage by iron maiden. I don't know abt you but a few whacks and some bosses just gained back all their life.
     
  9. Mad Mantis

    Mad Mantis D2/3 Necromancer & Witch Doctor Moderator

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    Gumby isn't exactly a good Golem for a damage return build. His Slow aura makes sure that it takes monsters much longer to actually beat themselves to death.




    They do stack. IM, Thorns and SoB are all considered to be different sources of damage return and that makes them stackable.
     
  10. Lunatic

    Lunatic IncGamers Member

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    The only thing that doesn't stack is Thorns and Iron golem. Since iron golem has a thorns aura of his own. Other then that IM + Thorns + SoB does stack. Although I would prolly use Thorns + Sob + amp. That usually gives you more dmg in the end.
     
  11. Naja

    Naja IncGamers Member

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    Yeah, good points, it's just that if you had very strong prisons with fully maxed Iron Maiden, you would have two easily-recastable spells that would cost little to no mana by that level.

    In comparison to Clay Golem, besides his slow aura making damage return a bad option, there are only so many monsters that are a: attracted to it, b: going to swarm around it at once. Plus you can only cast one of him. A Clay Golem that will be valuable to you (that has over 1000 hitpoints and that at least slows enemies by 50%+) is well over 40 mana to cast. At the rate monsters would destroy it, it would cost even a high magic caster an inconvenient amount to keep recasting it. Adding to that, there would probably be a whole cohort of monsters that would slip by your Gumby and chase after you instead...prompting you to run off, making your Golem run after you; in short getting nothing accomplished.

    Versus an unlimited amount of Bone Prisons that you can cast indefinately, protect you from virtually all monster incursions, are stronger than the Golem individually, and for DIRT CHEAP mana.

    The whole point of this build, I am realizing, is that the Necromancer in most cases works best when he is slowly dwindling the health of a whole group of monsters at once, rather than concentrating on eradicating them one at a time. That said, the Iron Maiden is useless without strong, easily-recastable Bone Prisons to slowly dwindle down the health of an entire horde - then capitalizing on Corpse Explosion...perhaps throwing in a few Bone Spirits if you're feeling bored.

    Thanks for your opinions, fellow Necros, btw. Any more??
     
  12. Mad Mantis

    Mad Mantis D2/3 Necromancer & Witch Doctor Moderator

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    A Clay is usually more durable than that. If you want him to have more than 50% slow and more than 1000 hit points that means you are willing to pump Clay up to at least level 10. If you are pumping Clay via the traditional +skills don't forget that GM also gets a boost. This gives you a Clay with almost 3500 hit points. He doesn't fall that easy.
     
  13. Day

    Day IncGamers Member

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    Plus 2 helm shoud be easy (if you can get enigma - you can surely get Shako?).

    Build looks a lot of fun.
     
  14. Pherdnut

    Pherdnut IncGamers Member

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    I see no reason not to combine damage return with a straight up skelliemancer. DR might not kill quickly by itself but it would certainly be a more than mediocre supplement to other types of damage. I've been thinking of building a poiskellomancer once I can get my hands on some bramble armor and a Death Web. Between the skeletons hitting the monsters, the monsters hitting themselves, and the poison damage, they should go down relatively quickly and I can always switch to amp damage when I encounter poison immunes.
     
  15. sad

    sad IncGamers Member

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    That makes a lot of sense Mad Mantis. I noticed that the chunks that came out of the monsters health were significant, but it was incredibly slow for a monster to kill himself. I had never even thought about the slow from gumby being the factor. Also, I did use bone walls, skeleton warriors, skeleton mages, and gumby at the same time when I was maximizing the effects, but I tested out the damage return with gumby in one vs one to see if the mosters were killing themselves, or if my skeletons were killing them. So maybe this build is possible, it certainly seems to be a safe build.
     
  16. Mad Mantis

    Mad Mantis D2/3 Necromancer & Witch Doctor Moderator

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    You should take a look at the The Corrupted Televangelist for some ideas on damage return.
     
  17. rickcarson

    rickcarson IncGamers Member

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    I've got a wand on weapon switch with +2 Summoning, +2 Fire Golem, at the start of my session I just weapon switch, whack out a FG, and then replace if necessary.

    My FG has 1600 hp and the Gumby about 2000, but the FG doesn't die often enough (in NM) for me to want to switch back. In fact I'm now regretting the points I dumped into Gumby early on. But hey, it was good at the time.

    NB: the Edge damage return build *can* kill in Hell, I just completed Den of Evil in Hell. It wasn't noticeably slower than A5 NM... what is different is that anything which gets through to me is a lot more dangerous.

    I'm doing solo NM Baal runs to get some better gearzorz for my other chars. :D And one of the random bosses in early act 5 nm was kind enough to drop a burrito cannon (finally! After four freaking years! Of course, the Burriza was a lot more uber in 1.09 :rant: :sigh: ), so I might try building another character around that.

    I just love killing the last wave of minions super quick... as soon as one goes down its wham bam CE maam.
     
  18. rickcarson

    rickcarson IncGamers Member

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    The reason why not to do this is because the whole point of a skellimancer is to overwhelm and overrun the enemies. Whereas damage return is really good if you're outnumbered or have roughly equal numbers.

    An extreme example: 20 skellies vs one monster... which are you going to want, Might + Amp or Iron Maiden? And thats not actually all that far fetched, on my Iron Maiden builds I will usually switch back to Amp when going up against bosses or Izual.

    Duriel being the obvious exception, since the merc doesn't seem to last very long against him for some reason...

    Edge *is* pretty good early on (read as: ridiculously overpowered)... but by the time you can wear Bramble and Death's Web there may be better options for a fishy/skellimancer.

    In any case, if I was going skellimancer + poison I'd still want to keep using Amp... maybe LR (on weapon switch) for PIs that can't be broken. (Eg the Ancients in NM+ if they spawn with Stone Skin).

    I've got a summoner (a LoM I think) which uses PNova + LR... and I found it to require quite a lot of key switching, it was a lot harder than most of my LoMs which are typically very passive. I guess it would be slightly less of an issue with a skellimancer since random movement to position yourself for the PNova isn't going to stuff your skellies up.
     
  19. rickcarson

    rickcarson IncGamers Member

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    I'm not sure if I mention it in that thread or a different one, but I'd just like to point that the Gumby slow effect doesn't really matter for Damage Return builds.

    Eg if you have 10 minions then Gumby's slow even at 50% only counts for a 5% reduction in damage reflected (since it only effects one tenth of the enemy monsters). Also that once your minions find their opponents gone from the IM they quickly finish off the gumby's opponent anyway.

    Its not any worse than the 'last man standing' effect of Attract (eg usually the monster with Attract is left and you can't overwrite the Attract so your merc has to finish them off).

    Even combining Attract + Gumby isn't necessarily bad for a damage return build.
     
  20. Growlor

    Growlor IncGamers Member

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    Guys, there is one huge problem here.

    Unless a recent patch has changed things, you do not get exp for any monsters that kill themselves on Bone Wall or Bone Prison.
    Does anyone know if this was corrected in 1.10?

    Thanks,
    Growlor
     

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