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Aldur's tank build, would it work?

Discussion in 'Druid' started by Grobyc, May 14, 2005.

  1. Grobyc

    Grobyc IncGamers Member

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    Aldur's tank build, would it work?

    I looked at the Aldur set and it's not bad given for someone who cannot afford runeword cookie-cutter builds.

    Most people would probably say it's one of the worse sets created, but on the other hand, many people overlook the enhanced damage from the entire set. Upgrade the mace and it'll give ~80 more to minimum and maximum damage. With the bonus of 3 sockets in it, you could put practically anything into it, most likely Amns or Shaels. The entire set gives ~100 resistance to all with a shield open. It also gives 45 vitality, 45 energy, 60 dex, and 65 strength from the entire set. It's actually quite a bit, it could leave more room for whatever else you may want/need. Then there's also the +3 skills and 150% AR which probably won't mean a whole lot, but it's something.

    As for the build, I'm thinking of Werewolf. With 20 Fury and 3 Shaels on the mace, it could reach 4 frames, but will lose 21% life leech if compared to Amns. But the Shaels are probably a better deal.

    20 Lycanthropy
    20 Fury
    20 Heart of the Wolverine/Oak Sage
    1 (20) Werewolf
    1-20 Cyclone Armor
    1 Hurricane

    This will leave you a lot of room for other skills, I think Cyclone Armor is ideal for the rest of the points and perhaps a point into Hurricane for the chill, Cyclone Armor will increase the duration so you won't have to keep reverting back to druid mode to recast it.

    75 Strength required for Aldurs (will become 140 after set), 91 for SS (will become 186 after set and SS)
    80 Dex by default from set
    100 Vitality by default from gears
    65 Energy by default from set

    The stats will only take up 16 levels of stat points, so you have pretty much 60+ levels of stat points left over (300+ points) to either max block or dump into Vitality. So you really only need 91 strength total for this build which will turn out to be 186 after all the stats are added up.

    Helm: Aldur - socketed with Shael and Ral maybe (45% FHR gives 4 frames - unless teamed up with other sources of FHR, reaching 3 frames won't be possible)
    Body: Aldur
    Weapon: Aldur - 3 Amns or 3 Shaels
    Shield: Stormshield - Perfect Diamond
    Gloves: Dracul's Grasp
    Belt: Verdungo's
    Boots: Aldurs
    Rings: 9% Life leech rings
    Amulet: Highlord's Wrath

    This build with the equipments have a ton of life leech, it gives 56%-59% with Amns, 35%-38% without Amns this isn't including the Life Tap from Dracul's. It will also grant 50% Damage Reduction (assuming Verdungo's has 15% DR).

    So with this build, it will give 179% Cold Resist, 179% Lightning Resist, 119% Fire Resist (149% if helm is socketed with Ral), and 50% Poison Resist. Could also add 30% to each of them for Anya quest. So it should reach max or near max in Hell difficulty.

    As far as damage goes, I'm not sure how much it'll be. Maybe around 1.5k-2k? Would probably use a Might merc along with a Reaper's Toll for crowd control. Ultimately, this build is made as a huge tank. Anyways, tell me what you guys think, finally done doing all the adding, hopefully I got them all right. :thumbsup:
     
  2. Chimaira

    Chimaira IncGamers Member

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    Looks pretty good! I like Aldur's set too except for the ultra crappy helm. The boots are nice, the armor is nice, and the mace has some okay mods so is also nice despite the low damage.

    The mace won't hit a 4 frame fury, even with 3x Shael:( The fastest it can get is 8/5 with 3x Shael and 9/5 with 2x Shael. Still fast enough, with 2x Shael so you have room for an Amn.

    I'd still max Werewolf since it gives that lovely AR bonus...you can't benefit from huge life leech if you can't hit anything. Also if this build is geared towards tanking, then 1 point in Grizzly would be a nice addition for even more survivability. Also Oak Sage would be better than HOW in my opinion. You should also consider Carrion Vine, since it's actually quite helpful.

    The Hurricane/Cyclone armor is a pretty good idea, but recasting it is going to be a pain...Even Cyclone armor doesn't last long against Gloams.

    I think your damage estimate is a bit high...The 350% Enhanced damage does sound tasty but it only works of the paltry weapon damage so it doesn't really do much:(.
     
  3. lCE

    lCE IncGamers Member

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    Your whole plan fails because of 1 thing u didnt know about- set items cannot be upgraded, and Aldurs set is a poor choice for melee simple because of that low damage weapon.
    Now if u play ladder its pretty easy to acquire a high damage weapon nowadays - Oath runeword. U might have to rush 1-2 chars to hellforge to acquire that mal and pul that is required, and an hour or 2 trading to find a ethereal cryptic sword, then assuming u roll a good % u can have an up to 4xx max damage 5 frame 1 handed weapon, just that one thing blows the whole aldurs set away.
     
  4. Grobyc

    Grobyc IncGamers Member

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    If the Dragoon's calculator is correct and I'm using it correctly, 81% WIAS will give me 7/4. Is it what you use Chimaira?

    I have to agree that Hurricane looks ok, but when having to recast it, it is a pain. So I think I will probably max Werewolf in place of it.

    The helmet is usually overlooked a lot because of its mods and nothing seems to stand out, but looking at something like the Tal Rasha Orb, it's not that far away. The most notable mod in the helmet is the FHR and resistance. The 25% FHR jumps from 7 frames to 5 frames, with a Shael, it jumps to 4 frames with another open socket, preferably a Ral to give max resistance of fire in Hell (assuming Anya has been done). It's not great, but it's something I could manage wearing with the rest of the set.

    The reason why I thought of using HoW was because of the low damage the mace does and the damage increase is kind of needed (also gives some AR bonus). Although Oak Sage does allow me to stand there longer, I would not be able to contribute to killing.

    ICE: I need to start remembering that I can't upgrade set items. I wouldn't go as far as than a single weapon could beat the entire set. You also need to factor in that it gives a lot of resistance, leech, and 105 stat points (21 levels to be exact) if you didn't. Although I can't deny that an Oath is a good sword, I don't think it could beat the entire set alone. Even with other gears combined, I don't think it could match the amount of resistance it gives.
     
  5. Chimaira

    Chimaira IncGamers Member

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    I'm pretty sure I'm the one who is using the calculator correctly ;)

    I think you're using the wrong weapon speed. Aldur's Mace is a 10 base speed weapon (Jagged Star) and in the calculator you have to use the negative value of that...which is -10...

    I can see the reasoning, but again the low damage on the weapon is a hindrance. Maxed HOW gives like 150% enhanced damage but that will only translate into roughly 100 extra damage which doesn't seem worthwhile compared to Oak Sages life bonus.

    So I have to agree with Ice that the set looks nice, but a good weapon will kick its ass.
     
  6. Grobyc

    Grobyc IncGamers Member

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    Ah, I see how I went wrong, I'm guessing I need to put in -10 instead of 10.

    How do you go about calculating the damage for the mace? With all these other ED (skills and auras) and outside ED from the weapon, it's all a jumble to me.
     
  7. lCE

    lCE IncGamers Member

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    All the skill ED, equipment ED, strength bonus etc are calculated based on your weapon damage and any other + min/max damage modifiers u may have outside the weapon (e.q. max charms, max jewels).
     
  8. Grobyc

    Grobyc IncGamers Member

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    But isn't that how regular ED on weapons are calculated? I don't see a difference between non-weapon ED and weapon ED.
     
  9. Origin

    Origin IncGamers Member

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    ED on the weapon raises the BASE damage of the weapon which makes a huge difference.
    ED off the weapon instead works alongside all other ED you have from skills and str etc.
    So say with maxed fury you have 400 or so ED, you will then get 550 ED instead with the extra 150% which isnt a huge boost.
     
  10. Grobyc

    Grobyc IncGamers Member

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    Hm, so let me see if I got this right..

    Assuming I have a level 20 Fury (423% ED) and a weapon that gives 100-100 damage (for simplicity), it will give 523 damage, right?

    Now if I had 423% on my 100-100 damage weapon, what difference would it be?
     
  11. Origin

    Origin IncGamers Member

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    hmm well now that i think of it i guess the only real difference is that if its weapon ED it uses your str bonus whereas if its skill or off weapon ED it doesnt. don't ask me how the str bonus works and how much it matters but for some reason it always seems like more base damage raises your final damage much more. but then again im no math genious so i might have missed something.
    oh right i just realised it. in a multiplication if you add a number to a side it will affect the result differently depending on which side was the smallest or biggest one.

    say you have 3x5 which is 15

    if you ad 1 to either side we get the following results:
    4x5=20
    or
    3x6=18

    so why did the first one produce a bigger result? because you added to the smallest one (so you increased it by 5 instead of 3 since it adds the opposite number). So the most effective multiplication would always be the one with the biggest balance ie 5x5 produces a bigger result than 3x7 even though 3+7 is 10 just as 5+5 is 10.

    So back to ED, you want to add more ED to the smallest side. And the smallest side is usually the weapon. There are few weapons in D2 with over 400% ED and the ones that are (or even close to it) are uber godly. 100-300 is more common. while skill and off weapon ED is more common and usually much higher added up (keep in mind this category include auras aswell).

    So I guess if you had an amazing rare with 400%+ ED and used some skill with really low or no % ED ie using Stun with a barb (and having no points in mastery and not being under the effect of any aura that grants ED) then off weapon ED would actually be more effective.

    This was probably a really bad and confusing explanation.. i just kind of came up with it on the fly as i wrote this.. sorry ^_^
    hope it helped anyways!
     
  12. Chimaira

    Chimaira IncGamers Member

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    Your first assumption is correct...

    In the second example you'd get a weapon with 523-523 damage not much of a difference...but it would then be further enhanced by your Fury and give 523*(5,23)=2735.

    Lets take Aldur's set vs high damage weapon....

    Aldurs mace does 60-93 damage which isn't a lot.
    We get approximately 425% enhanced damage from Fury, 350% enhanced damage from the set and 150% from strength which totals 925%.

    This gives a damage total of 60*10,25 - 93*10,25 = 615-953 (784 avg)

    Perfect Tomb Reaver does 125-570 damage.

    Now we'll only get 425% enhance damage from Fury and 150% enhanced damage from strength which totals 575%

    This gives a damage total of 125*6,75 - 570*6,75 = 843-3847 (2345 avg).

    So while the 350% enhanced damage looks sweet it doesn't really do much because the base damage of the crappy Jagged Star mace is pathetic.
     
  13. Grobyc

    Grobyc IncGamers Member

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    Thanks for the explanation Chimaira, but there was still something you didn't mention that I wanted to know about.

    The Aldur set gives 350% ED, so with the mace...

    60*4.5 - 93*4.5 = 270 - 418 damage

    However, Arreat Summit has it done differently, so I'm not sure if they did it wrong or I did it wrong, but theirs is like this..

    60*3.5 - 93*4.5 = 210 - 325 damage

    Then, there's the question, if it was 350% ED on the weapon, what difference is it compared to non-weapon ED or is there any at all? Because I hear a lot of people saying that using a 40% ED jewel on non-weapons are not as effective, but I never understood why.
     
  14. Chimaira

    Chimaira IncGamers Member

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    The difference between your calculation and the Arreat Summit...is merely that your calculation is the final damage....both the extra enhanced damage + the weapon damage, while the Arreat Summit example only shows the extra enhanced damage.

    Try adding the weapons damage to the Arreat Summit's result and you will get your own...if that made sense???

    Enhanced damage on the weapon itself is (almost) always superior because it will give you a bigger damage weapon that can then be further enhanced by off-weapon enhanced damage.

    Lets take another example using the Aldur's Mace....

    Aldur's Rhytm damage 60-93 and we assume that Fury gives us 500% ED.

    With 40% Enhanced damage jewel socketed in armor, we get 540% enhanced damage (40% from jewel, 500% from Fury). This is what we'll enhance the mace's damage with.

    60*6.4 - 93*6.4 = 384-595

    With 40% Enhanced damage jewel socketed in the weapon we get 500% enhanced damage from Fury and an Aldur's Rhythm that does...

    An ordinary Jagged Star does 20-31...with 200% enhanced damage it does 60-93 which is a normal Aldur's Rhythm...with 40% extra ED it will do 20*3.4 - 31* 3.4 = 68-105

    The new weapon damage 68-105 will now be enhance by the 500% from Fury...

    68*6 - 105*6 = 408-630

    So you see an ED jewel is better when socketed in a weapon...the difference will be even larger when socketed in a big damage elite weapon like Ogre Maul.
     
  15. buttershug

    buttershug IncGamers Member

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    My understanding is that with swords you get more damage with more strength. Call it Strength Increased Damage(SID) And further that the 40% ED increases SID if the jewel is in the weapon. And that is if the jewel is not in the weapon, then the SID is not increased by the 40%.

    Or to put it another way, if the 40% ED jewel is in the weapon the damage gets mulitplied (increased) twice, and if it is not in the weapon, then the damage gets multiplied (increased) only once.

    And I believe it is also true with ED on weapons not just SID.

    And I like TLA's
     
  16. Chimaira

    Chimaira IncGamers Member

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    Strength will enhance the damage of almost all weapons...except assasin claws, amazon spears, and maybe some other types. If you socket a jewel in an armor, the enhanced damage will work exactly like the enhanced damage from strength, if you socket in a weapon, it will enhance the weapon.
     
  17. ChthonVII

    ChthonVII IncGamers Member

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    I believe the formulae for melee weapons and bows are as follows (I believe the smite and kick formulae or different):

    FIRST you calculate the weapon's damage:

    Weapon_Min_Damage = ((Weapon_Base_Min_Damage + 1) * (1 + %ED_On_Weapon/100 )) + Plus_To_Min_Damage_On_Weapon

    Weapon_Max_Damage = ((Weapon_Base_Max_Damage + 1) * (1 + %ED_On_Weapon/100 )) + Plus_To_Max_Damage_On_Weapon

    THEN you calculate the post-str/dex damage:

    For Thrown and Melee Weapons:
    Post_Str_Min_Damage = Weapon_Min_Damage * (Str + 100) / 100
    Post_Str_Max_Damage = Weapon_Max_Damage * (Str + 100) / 100

    For Bows and Crossbows:
    Post_Dex_Min_Damage = Weapon_Min_Damage * (Dex + 100) / 100
    Post_Dex_Max_Damage = Weapon_Max_Damage * (Dex + 100) / 100

    FINALLY you calculate the damage after skills and non-weapon gear.

    Final_Min_Damage = ((Post_Str/Dex_Min_Damage + 1) * (1 + %ED_From_Skills_&_Non-Weapon_Gear/100 )) + Plus_To_Min_Damage_From_Skills_&_Non-Weapon_Gear

    Final_Max_Damage = ((Post_Str/Dex_Max_Damage + 1) * (1 + %ED_From_Skills_&_Non-Weapon_Gear/100 )) + Plus_To_Max_Damage_From_Skills_&_Non-Weapon_Gear

    Like Chimiara said, that base damage on the weapon is what matters most, because it get's multiplied once by your str/dex and once by your skills & non-weapon gear.

    At any rate, the bottom line is that aldurs star does such awful base damage, there's not a lot you can do to make it work.
    If you insist on trying, because the base is sooo poor, a +10min/+15max jewel will work just as well as an ohm rune and it's a lot cheaper.
     

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