A newbie's hardcore experience

Dangerous Dave

Diabloii.Net Member
Well, tired of playing softcore, I wanted to try out hardcore. I decided to make a shapeshifting druid and leveled in act 1 for a little while and then I eventually got past Andy because a higher level sorc rushed us. However, at the beginning of Act 2, I noticed several "sewer run" games. Well to make a long story short, I did sewer runs because it was good experience, and I had a fun time playing with different people. However, on some occasions, a rude "pker" would join the game, act like we were his friends, and then he'd hostile us. Some would just enter the game, and hostile everyone. On one occasion, I think I was in a four player game, and then a lvl 32 pally joins. A lvl 32 Pally doing sewer runs? Sounded like PK to me, and guess what? He did try to pk us. But the most shocking part of this, was a lvl 12 necro in our group was his friend and it turned out that he was helping the pally find us :(. It really showed the dishonest nature of hardcore playing, I also had someone tell me about how another player filled the TP entrance with monsters and told him to go inside. Of course he died right away, the other player, who was a sorc, just wanted the loot. So basically "loot" = pk me now. And the funny thing I saw, based on my experience, and those of others I've recently read in these forums, is that pkers are mostly cowards. They kill others yet they don't want to die. They generally pick on unfair fights. Well the lvl 32 Pallyu I mentioned earlier tried to hunt us down and we all just TP into town. A player in the game got angry at the Pally, and bought his lvl 80 sorc. The lvl 80 sorc hostiled the pally and the pally just typed "lol", "you noob, you need a lvl 80 to kill a lvl 32" then I responded with "well you need a lvl 32 to kill lvl 18s" He replied "stfu". And also, how people screw with newbs. Some "free items" games are actually real, some people drop decent low lvl stuff for newbs to have. I could use some of the free stuff considering I use Arcannas staff as my primary weapon. But then there are some people who like to screw with newbs. They make fake games and some of the also have a "free items here" sign over his head. Then all of us mindlessly chase him around until he finally says "lol" or "noobs" and then he leaves the games. This made me feel pretty stupid lol. Or people who say "items in blood moor" and then they really intend to pk you. So my point is that hardcore really isn't better than softcore. I know people who say "hardcore is so much better than softcore", and that's what got me into it, but so far the aspect of hardcore has not been too promising.
Don't trust players you don't know.

There are plenty players who post here who you could trust to help you in private games.
Get a few friends who you know would not try to PK/rob/cheat you, make private games, and have fun.



 

Barrynor

Banned
I played on Europe Tracker, I'm sorry. I did dabble a bit on East, killed four dozen people, but the times of play were awkward. Thanks for th ePM. Havent touched DII in one and a half year, and despite the urge now I shan't come back. I might reconsider next ladder reset, but as it turned out, I have only two weekends "off" till end of september... scared the hell out of me, because one of those weekends I have to study. EEK!

Nope, never kept the ears... well... I did collect them in my stash on a per pk-er basis, and on a crazy day I might sort them to level, but I cannot recall a single name even if I did want to. I did keep count, as that's fun to do, but only once I passed 1500 I realized I was being rather... voracious. Eventually, I could predict the outcome of any battle I was in with about 90-95% accuracy, and that was the point I bailed. No challenge anymore.

Rah's right you know. Everyone should learn a little about Hardcore PvP and PK, if only to fully realize the capacities of say a level 16 charger with a 40-100 hammer and +9 max jewels all around. A lot of TPPK-ers for example levelled to 42 with a Necromancer and started TPPK-ing, and then ran into my little paladin who challenged them and took their ear. And a level 42 Nec can kill you with 2-3 spirits. Because their PvP skills were mainly based on TPPk and not on real duelling I was able to kill quite a few of those guys.
 

Tracker

Diabloii.Net Member
@Tracker,
As memory serves, Barry never kept the ears. Or that could be someone else I;m thinking of.

And the immature PK, who does it just to bother people because they get no respect IRL, so they try to demand it in a video game
I strongly disagree with this. Getting ears legitly is one thing. Getting alot of them legitly is an entirely different matter. There are times where baiting people via immature methods are far more effective than anything silent, and the same holds true in the reverse. Even ignoring me didn't work, as it was more common that someone would try their luck, or someone brought in a dueler/higher level in which I promptly killed.

My PKing methods were varied, and involved both verbal and silient. My thrill was both of the chase and seeing if I could kill them before they left the game.

I never counter ears (lost count after the 50th stash or so), merely if one of my pkers could fill his stash with ears I was happy. I'd then empty it and start over.

I strongly encourage people to learn how to pvp at low levels. Knowledge is one thing, experience is another. It teaches you so much about the game and HC mode its not funny. It taught me to the extent that any character I started (and throw on some twink gear to help them get to lvl 30+ asap), become a capable pker, and possibly ppker.
Can't agree man...been doing it too long and I have seen too many like G3rb!l. Note the difference between you and Barrynor and him. Both you and Barry are rational thinking, mature and surgical...not so on the other side.

I am not saying that he is all PKs..or even the most of them...and not saying provocation is not a good draw...it is. But there is a huge difference between attitudes and abilities. I carried a little rep in my day and I made it a point to live on the PK forum and to make friends with the good ones.

Doesn't matter how much you "learn" PvP...you are going to get owned 75% of the time by someone who ONLY PvPs. (PK/PKK) A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. :)


 

Tracker

Diabloii.Net Member
@Tracker,
As memory serves, Barry never kept the ears. Or that could be someone else I;m thinking of.

And the immature PK, who does it just to bother people because they get no respect IRL, so they try to demand it in a video game
I strongly disagree with this. Getting ears legitly is one thing. Getting alot of them legitly is an entirely different matter. There are times where baiting people via immature methods are far more effective than anything silent, and the same holds true in the reverse. Even ignoring me didn't work, as it was more common that someone would try their luck, or someone brought in a dueler/higher level in which I promptly killed.

My PKing methods were varied, and involved both verbal and silient. My thrill was both of the chase and seeing if I could kill them before they left the game.

I never counter ears (lost count after the 50th stash or so), merely if one of my pkers could fill his stash with ears I was happy. I'd then empty it and start over.

I strongly encourage people to learn how to pvp at low levels. Knowledge is one thing, experience is another. It teaches you so much about the game and HC mode its not funny. It taught me to the extent that any character I started (and throw on some twink gear to help them get to lvl 30+ asap), become a capable pker, and possibly ppker.
Can't agree man...been doing it too long and I have seen too many like G3rb!l. Note the difference between you and Barrynor and him. Both you and Barry are rational thinking, mature and surgical...not so on the other side.

I am not saying that he is all PKs..or even the most of them...and not saying provocation is not a good draw...it is. But there is a huge difference between attitudes and abilities. I carried a little rep in my day and I made it a point to live on the PK forum and to make friends with the good ones.

Doesn't matter how much you "learn" PvP...you are going to get owned 75% of the time by someone who ONLY PvPs. (PK/PKK) A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. :)


 

Rygor

Diabloii.Net Member
my first PK expierence was with a sorc last night. she was level 41 and my hammerdin was 46. now i know everyone says DONT TRY TO FIGHT but i was thinking "1 hammer and she's dead". now i've never PKed before but sure enough i ran out of town and made a crap load of hammers around myself and she tele'd right into it and died.
 

Barrynor

Banned
@Tracker

And that knowledge alone is valuable. Once you realize that you are hopelessly outmatched versus the people who know how to fight, you learn not to fight.
 

SonOfRah

Diabloii.Net Member
Doesn't matter how much you "learn" PvP...you are going to get owned 75% of the time by someone who ONLY PvPs. (PK/PKK) A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. :)
No, you are missing the point.

You learn how to deal large amount of damage early on.
You learn what skills synerise well for a character with the low game in mind.
You learn how to survive/build expecting to take large damage.
You learn what to look out for as an early warning pk alert, because you're more aware of what things can deal damage and more importantly *how*.
You learn how to build high damage, high health characters right from level 1, without gimping yourself for mid/high level play (ie: nightmare/hell mode)

And you learn game mechanics and how to use them. This won't always be aparent, but you will learn a better feel for things that are happening even if you don't know why or understand it. And if you're more observant and apply things in a different way, you'll figure out tips and tricks.

Tricks like this....

Ask yourself this, are the 2 barbarian skills Howl and Grim Ward useable in pvp?

The answer is yes, they're quite usefull if used the in the right way. I was one of the very first people to ever make a low level tele necro. In fact, I occasionally ran into a full duel game, holstiled everyone and then did a 5v1 (some was actually a 7v1) and killed every single person. Every. Single. Person. Ages later, I released my build to the public hear and for the next 3 months it was the most common dueler that you would see, due to how much damage it could do, how easy it was to make one, and how relatively easy it was to use. I picked up so many telecro dueler ears during those 3 months with my barbarian it wasn't funny. The barbarian was a modified 34 conc/zerker but I picked up Howl and Grim Ward. Why? Because both those skills work on player minions and mercs. Nothing quite like a low level necromancer teleport on top of you with a heap (or few depending on the varient) skeletons, golem and merc, only to have the all run away.

Another example is if you know how various game mechanics work, you can figure out how people are exploiting them with their hacks. I once got my hands on one of the earlier tppk scripts (basically the ones that BlueMoon PK used. I imagine that they aren't much different than what they are now, except for compatibility code for the diablo2 executable file). I looked through the code and it worked exactly how I thought it would, line for line. Which meant that I knew the flaws in the script, and how I could use game mechanics to prevent myself being killed via tppk. I only ever got tppk'd once, but I have lived through too many attempts to count.... all without exiting the game or taking a tp to town. (On a side note, I developed a pker of my own to specificlly kill known tppk users before they even thought to press their tppk button. That pally claimed many tppk ears from hell cows).

Things like this is why everyone should learn pvp at lower levels. Even if its cheaply run ironmans, or an organised fight between friends. The more you know about hardcore pvp in this game, the more you learn to survive whatever gets thrown your way. Either via being prewarned, or being better prepared with a stronger character build.



 

SonOfRah

Diabloii.Net Member
Please, by all means, share with us :scratch:
Ugh you're asking me to drag up some old memories hehe. I could probably link you a post that I made about it years ago, but that'd take way too much effort.

It was a combination of everything I listed. I had an instinctive feeling that gave away practically every pker I ran across (both legit and tppk) because I could pick the signs. I built my characters to survive and to take hits. I knew how to position myself for the best chances of escape. I was not afraid of anything in the game - including players because I was prepared.

The big basis of TPPK is that it does not in fact target your character. It instead does the next best thing instead. It targets the spot where your character is. The various spells and abilities that lock onto a target have a certain radius to track in from where they are fired at. Zon's GA for example has a smaller radius than the necros BS. Its a matter of moving in the right way. Getting a monster in between you and the missile before it goes into "tracking mode" offers a higher chance it won't target you. You can even move in such a way to cause the missile to go into an awkward pathing pattern, which meant it would never hit you and finally disappear.

The one exception is if you're already hostiled before the missiles are fired. In which case TPPK is locked onto you. But in that case you're already forewarned and your pvp abilities come into play.

You also have to be aware of *everything*. Where is player X shooting his missiles? What skills is he using? Are you overextended and have no quick escape route? Do you have your finger over your juve key? Can you activate any skill that you want within a second?

Note, I don't recommend trying this. Its a last resort method, unless you are extremely very confident in your skills. I was, due to both my knowledge of the game, and my extensive pvp and pve background - I applied everything the same way, and constantly was trying to improve.

If you want practice. Go solo hell CS. Alot. Start out with a few monsters at a time, but then ramp up the difficulty (both with more players in the game - and by having more monsters in the screen at once). Thats probably one of the best areas in the game that tests your survival imo.



 

Tracker

Diabloii.Net Member
No, you are missing the point.....
No friend...not missing your point at all. I led some major PKK guilds in my time. (Moralltach and the Fianna to name two [Original Diablo through LOD 1.09]). We had a TON of people trying to join that were wanna be PKKs...people that were pissed or fed up or just wanted to hunt the real game. [Hunting lions is more challenging even than hunting sheep BTW.]

They had already applied everything you were talking about. Hell that is NATURAL for anyone to want out of their character at any level man PvM or PvP...everyone wants a maxed character with synergies, mechanics and equipment.

On top of this, we had a training camp...made them roll SC characters that they would use for the training and fight with them until they could win against two of our junior leaders in a row...then to graduate, they rolled an HC character...At 24, they had to win against 2 of our toons and then bring in 10 PK ears. (We gave them a list of known PK accounts to hunt with). That got them in the guild.

[Although irrelavent to the conversation, I also screened them to make sure they were not anal.]

And still after all this, even my best were not matching the number of consistant kills of the top level PKs. [I know this because we frequented PK-HQ.com as honored guests of DODO].

The issue is this:

A PvM oriented player MAY kill 5-10 people a year either in dueling or self defense. Even if you train him on the best PvP skills and he masters them in August, buy November, he is so rusty most of the information is "oh...thats how he killed me". He will THINK he is good enough to stand when he should bail.

A PKK although trained and active will fall short of the PK because there is a specific hunt involved. Although they can be VERY VERY proficient because each challenge is harder than a regular PK...the kills are still not as frequent.

The PK however kills many times daily. They deal with the unexpected each game they enter...not knowing what to expect or which ear they will take...will it be a sheep or a twink. The ears you take are in such an amount that it becomes more natural than PvM and you become experts at reacting to the unknown. That removes the stress and as Barrynor said earlier: "I got to the point where I could immediately predict the outcome of each encounter before it started." We profiled the PKs we hunted and our clan members could only hunt off the list our scouts provided, but even with that we were not able to consistantly predict the outcome of an event.

I respect your opinion and I do see your point, but I will also stand on my experiance and say that each time, it is better for someone with little PvP experiance to bail every time against a PK. NO reason to fight...even if you kill him/her, they will just reroll.


 

SonOfRah

Diabloii.Net Member
:) You're still missing the point.

I never said that anyone should stay to fight the PK. I don't recommend anyone ever staying to fight, unless they are 100% willing to accept the loss of their character, even if they do try to flux out.

I will stand by my argument that people should get some experience in PVP in the lower levels, for my reasons listed above. Playing pvm doesn't automatically make you a good player. LoD simplified many elements in the game from classic, which let alot of players get to the higher levels (even now with the harder NM/Hell this still holds true). PVP does in fact help you bypass the normal limits that the majority of people play, allowing you to become a much better player. It does not mean that you should fight back against pkers.

A PKK although trained and active will fall short of the PK because there is a specific hunt involved. Although they can be VERY VERY proficient because each challenge is harder than a regular PK...the kills are still not as frequent.
I started off my pvp by PKKing. My brother (2 years younger than I) never pvped at all, yet he could run rings around 80% of the PKers our there and kill them. Hell the entire reason I switched to hardcore was because my very first online character (lvl 36 softcore paladin) got pked by a lvl 40 something necro in act 2 nightmare (back in classic).

Unless something drastic has changed since I left the game. Over 90% of the pvpers (PK/PKK/Duelers) out there are total nubs when it comes to pvp. They rely so much on their TPPK and chicken hack (both of which got incredibly predominant) to save them. The sheer amount of ears that they get, or the fact that chicken saves them, dumbs down their individual skills. The other 10% of them out there, are much more cunning, and they are the true threat.

Here is a rough comparison for my own activities.
On a good night I could pull in around 20+ ears, for a 6 hour gaming session. On some exceptional nights that number would double, but wasn't as common. There were even nights where I would fail to score even a single kill. My average was probably around 3 ears an hour. I'll warrant that not many other 100% legit pkers got more than that on average.

An average TPPK user on the other hand, can blow my achievements out of the water. If they do it right, they can usually pick up an ear every second or third game they enter for little effort. This is easily an average of 8 ears an hour.

And finnaly,
Your entrance requirements seam a bit excessive. *grin*
 

Tracker

Diabloii.Net Member
:) You're still missing the point.
Ok...I did miss your point then. <slaps himself with a splintered ruler.> And I do concede that as long as the PvM does not think he is the next Bobbafett, then he will gain a new level of gaming out of it.

My guilds were the original diablo and early 1.09. Chicken was not as common then...nor was TPPK. It did happen, but not as much. the training was hard because at one time Morallatach hit 200 members and about 40% of them were idiots. Our reputation began to suffer, so the Fianna was formed. We went with the SF mentality...thinned the fat and created a small (60 member) elite group of people that were not anal and not twinks. Yeah...people had to be a LOT more dedicated to get in and they had to be willing to listen and learn...we were no longer as popular as the criteria itself scared the amatures off...but dude...it was a monster clan and we were family both in game and IRL.

Anyway...thanks for the insight and the interesting conversation. <salute>
 

MoUsE_WiZ

Diabloii.Net Member
Entirely off topic but...
the Fianna
Wasn't Rah at one point (having not played GW since D2 season 3 started no idea if the guild is even still there, or if Rah still plays >.>) in The Fianna on GW?

Are the two related in some way?



 

Rekoc

Diabloii.Net Member
Mouse you shouldnt go off topic like that, ... trying to get your post count hope gah!
 

SonOfRah

Diabloii.Net Member
Entirely off topic but...

Wasn't Rah at one point (having not played GW since D2 season 3 started no idea if the guild is even still there, or if Rah still plays >.>) in The Fianna on GW?

Are the two related in some way?
Not related in any way, shape or form.

The Fianna in guild wars was always mistaken from a guild with the same name from Dark Ages of camelot mmo. Sadly, The Fianna is no longer a guild (some people are still in it, but are awol) in that game. Most split and went their separate ways. I went to WoW to get a good break from it, some moved on to other games, some went into a few different guilds. I know that at least 1 scored themselves a job at ArenaNet.



 

Barrynor

Banned
Umm. let me see here... I scored about 1723 ears (give or take 5, i mean, the count is a little clouded ;) ) in roughly two years of time. Given that there I played about oooh 100 days a year, say 8 hours per day, that would mean I played about 1600 hours, so about an ear per hour. Most of the period I pk-ed time was not spent pk-ing however. The sexiest average I had was about 300 ears in 60 hours of hunting during the first hack free weaks of 1.10... that was... sick, and 5 legit ear per hour. Of course, there were days when I did score 20 ears, and there were days when the harvest was 1 or 2. Nope, I think Rah had the upper hand there, but I always knew he and Shade killed more than I did ^_^. I have yet to meet anyone on Europe who managed to beat my record. I'm sure there is someone though... somewhere... problem is that if he acted the way I did he'd be hard to find. I shifted accounts once or twice a month, and that meant I was relatively unknown, apart from the slaughter I wrecked on my BtK-account.

Just be glad we didn't deceide to use hacks or battlenet would have been a real mess a long time ago ;)
:) You're still missing the point.

I never said that anyone should stay to fight the PK. I don't recommend anyone ever staying to fight, unless they are 100% willing to accept the loss of their character, even if they do try to flux out.

I will stand by my argument that people should get some experience in PVP in the lower levels, for my reasons listed above. Playing pvm doesn't automatically make you a good player. LoD simplified many elements in the game from classic, which let alot of players get to the higher levels (even now with the harder NM/Hell this still holds true). PVP does in fact help you bypass the normal limits that the majority of people play, allowing you to become a much better player. It does not mean that you should fight back against pkers.

I started off my pvp by PKKing. My brother (2 years younger than I) never pvped at all, yet he could run rings around 80% of the PKers our there and kill them. Hell the entire reason I switched to hardcore was because my very first online character (lvl 36 softcore paladin) got pked by a lvl 40 something necro in act 2 nightmare (back in classic).

Unless something drastic has changed since I left the game. Over 90% of the pvpers (PK/PKK/Duelers) out there are total nubs when it comes to pvp. They rely so much on their TPPK and chicken hack (both of which got incredibly predominant) to save them. The sheer amount of ears that they get, or the fact that chicken saves them, dumbs down their individual skills. The other 10% of them out there, are much more cunning, and they are the true threat.

Here is a rough comparison for my own activities.
On a good night I could pull in around 20+ ears, for a 6 hour gaming session. On some exceptional nights that number would double, but wasn't as common. There were even nights where I would fail to score even a single kill. My average was probably around 3 ears an hour. I'll warrant that not many other 100% legit pkers got more than that on average.

An average TPPK user on the other hand, can blow my achievements out of the water. If they do it right, they can usually pick up an ear every second or third game they enter for little effort. This is easily an average of 8 ears an hour.

And finnaly,
Your entrance requirements seam a bit excessive. *grin*


 

Azon

Diabloii.Net Member
I dont know which one i hate more...pk's or lag..... both have a really big *** factor of 11/10.....

Btw - if any old players remember me (which i HIGHLY doubt) I'm Azon. Used to play hardcore when classic was around around and for about a year in LOD.
 

Barrynor

Banned
That would predate even me... hmm, lessiee... remember Crysantheium? Rachelene? Ghostwheel perhaps?

I dont know which one i hate more...pk's or lag..... both have a really big *** factor of 11/10.....

Btw - if any old players remember me (which i HIGHLY doubt) I'm Azon. Used to play hardcore when classic was around around and for about a year in LOD.


 
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