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a new type of paladin idea

Discussion in 'Classic' started by HegemonKhan, May 6, 2008.

  1. HegemonKhan

    HegemonKhan IncGamers Member

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    a new type of paladin idea

    i haven't really seen anything on the conversion skill except when using it with thorns aura. so i'm gonna throw out a 1st draft guide on it as i haven't really experimented either myself with it.

    about the conversion skill:

    % chance to convert based on ONLY sk pts into conversion, NOT AR. turns most monsters into minions who fight with u against monsters. but they dont folow u like the necro's army and they convert back to your enemies after so many seconds some times with life and some times nearly dead. they do receive your aura's but those aura's also stay on them for some time after they convert back into enemies.

    idea of it:

    in real life, present and past, missionaries go around the world and try to convert people over to their religion.

    description of it:

    this guide is about using the conversion skill to convert monsters on your side, creating a temporary army and you as its leader. this rough draft guide i made focuses on the converted army aspect of it, where as the thorns+conversion guides doesn't really talk about using the converted monsters as your army. this is a "necro sumoner, like fishy mancers and comando mancers" guide but it is for the paladin using his conversion and aura skills instead of a necro using his summoning and curse skills.

    the missionary paladin guide:

    two types:

    agressive type: u are on the front lines melee weapon fighting along with your converted army and issuing commands (auras) to your converted army

    cautious type: u retreat behind your army once its made by conversion skill and stay out of the fight issuing commands (auras) and support ranged attacks or skills to your converted army

    agressive type:

    stat placement: "balance" of str, dex, vit as u want or need. if u need more damage than more str, need ar than more dex, dying too much more vit, enough str for weapon and gear, enough dex for weapon

    skill placement: max conversion, max one of these auras (fanaticism, concentration, conviction, sanctuary), max on of these skills and their associated synergies (sacrifice, zeal, vengence, smite), than whatever skills u want or need.

    weapons and gear: depends on what u want or need. fast and damaging melee weapon (1h or 2h). shield or no shield. good resists. +skills. +IAS, high def gear. CB/OW weapon and/or gear. etc.

    cautious type:

    offensive cautious type:

    ranged weapon offensive cautious type:

    (switch from melee for conversion to bow/xbow for support attacks or use throwing weapons for both melee and ranged so don't have to switch weapons)

    stat placement: enough str for weapon and gear, enough dex for weapon, need more damage than more dex, need more life than more vit

    skill placement: max conversion, max one of these auras and their associated synergies (thorns, fanaticism, concentration, conviction, holy fire, holy freeze, holy shock), than whatever skills u want. skill pts left over should than go into blessed aim for a passive AR increase or the 3 resist skills for passive increase to maximum resist.

    weapons and gear: depends on what u want need. melee weapon+bow/xbow or shield+throwing (for both melee and ranged). fast and damaging ranged or throwing weapon or unique weapon. shield or no shield. good resists. +skills. +IAS, high def gear. CB/OW weapon and/or gear. etc.

    (i got tired at this point, so below i made it quick as i could.)

    ranged skill offensive cautious type: max conversion, than..

    1. make a charger. whatever aura for charge and/or party aura for your converted monsters. whatever stat and weapon/gear placement.

    2. make a foher. max conviction. whatever stat and weapon/gear placement.

    defensive cautious type: max conversion, than...

    1. choose 1 or however many of these auras and their associated synergies (cleansing, prayer, salvation, defiance, thorns). than whatever for rest of skills, stats, weapon/gear, etc. this type is to be a support character for your converted army. so u want +skills and resists mainly.
     
  2. WarlockCC

    WarlockCC Diablo Classic Moderator

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    Re: a new type of paladin idea

    For conversion, I'd probably get a cutlass with some ias on it, and a holy freeze aura to not only slow down the ones which are still your enemy, but also to kill the ones which where your friends, since after conversion, most monsters are left with a single hitpoint.
    Perhaps take a point in holy shock, to be able to kill fire and cold immunes.
    Holy fire is offcourse a prereq for holy freeze, so you have most of the cold immunes covered even without holy shock, but there are always exceptions. :)

    As for venom lords, they are not cold immune, so you will be able to carve them up with your holy freeze weapon damage.

    But, yeah, your versions would probably work just as good, if not better. That's what I like about Diablo, everybody can make their own variation if you have the imagination. :)
     
  3. Fearlessone

    Fearlessone IncGamers Member

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    Good food for thought here...

    I've been seeing more Missionaries lately. Trouble is they usually don't have a useful aura and they interfere with strong party members actually killing their converts and associated mob far more quickly. A good convert or two, to act as a meatshield, is great.

    The conversion/thorns era is dead. Not even in LoD is it used anymore. It was hated anyways by melee players for the residual thorns aura.

    While a necro can curse the monsters his minions are attacking, your pally can aura his temp minions. This works if the monsters are strong enough with your aura, either for physical or elemental damage. I like your ideas of the paladin using fight skills while the converted are doing their thing: such as foh, or using a bow. If you have a converted cadre, the problem is that every few seconds you will have to switch back to conversion due to the 16 second limit. This is tedious, and it's why few pallys choose to be a full time Missionary.



     
  4. SinousSiren

    SinousSiren IncGamers Member

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    Re: Good food for thought here...

    David,

    Your likely seeing more Missionaries around Classic/LoD because of onderduiker guide over at AB, written about a year ago. He tried out a few different types, and ended up playing a Thorns-based Smiter mostly (in LoD).


    Anyhow, yes the "Pricky Guardian missionary build" is 95% of the time a solo player build, or team-up with another Thorns Paladin (or SoB Druid if you in LoD, not Classic D2), possibly a Necromancer who uses Amplify Curse. Most other common cookie-cutter builds will clash with a Thorn-based Paladin style of playing one way or another, unfortunately.

    One suggestion would be to find a "friendly Necromancer" to remove Monster Physical Resists in Hell Difficulty, if you play on the ladder. Amplify or Decrepify Curse will greater improve the effectiveness of your Thorns Aura damage.

    Second suggestion would to be equip a source of Crushing Blow Damage and/or Open Wounds Damage as you previously mentioned in your post. Maybe an offensive Charger version with Rattlecage, Gtoes, Bonesnap (25%+25%+40%= 90% CB)? Or possibly use a Swordback Shield & a fast one-handed weapon?

    Of course if you decide make the Foher version & play on US West, I know of a Javazons & Necromancers who'd love to play along side of your Thorns Paladin ;-)

    Best of Luck~
     
  5. EagleEntek

    EagleEntek IncGamers Member

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    Re: a new type of paladin idea

    Biggest problem here is that your using it as your primary skill - i always said that skills like convert and hammers and the like are meant to be used as a backup - the paladin is after all supposed to be a knight.

    I found convert usefull on my medic however, as he can kill all in CS except venom lords - you shoot the undead, convert the venom lords then run like hell away from them lol - as they dont follow you, lead them down to a safeish area and convert them - they will hopefully stay there. Of course the only prob is in hell there are a LOT of venom lords - hence a high dmg weapon to kill the small groups is best.

    A better idea would perhaps be to use something like fanataiscm or holy freeze, and to bolt the undead, convert some venom lords to help you do so, and when all the undead are laid to rest, zeal the venom lords using convert to keep the big groups occupied. A hybrid if you want...
     
  6. SinousSiren

    SinousSiren IncGamers Member

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    Re: a new type of paladin idea

    If you worry about Venom Lords in the CS following your Party, one atypical option would be to get a high xx% of Hit Causes Monster To Flee. Either you've Converted them, or their getting out of your way, to one of 3 Seals fairly safely with decent quickness.

    Here's some common classic items with Hit Causes Monster To Flee:

    Rattlecage (armor): 45% HCMtF
    The Face of Horror (helm): 50% chance HCMtF (plus +50% Damage To Undead)
    Howltusk (helm): 25% chance HCMtF


    Having a secondary Aura attack option would be an excellent idea, indeed. Fanaticism, Holy Freeze, Holy Shock are all good options. If I was using a beefy 2-handed weapon I'd go with Holy Shock (max RL points!) or Holy Freeze. Unless, you have enough points to max out both Resist Lightning and put a good amount into Fanaticism Aura. It's nice to able to survive after being swarmed by a large FE+LE pack.

    Yes, but mostly because it's just plain hard to play Hell Difficulty to the finish as a Conversion/thorns character. Why? More physical immunes & the overall greater monster physical resists in Hell. The residual thorns effect didn't really kill the build, just as the IM cursing mages didn't stop all the people from playing melee characters in the CS. Slow general kill-speed is what did it. Getting a source of Amplify, Decrepify curse is almost required imho to play in Hell Difficulty for a pure Conversion/Thorns based character. Which is also why, like most people I'd suggest going one of the hybrid routes for types of attack damage available (Cold, Lightning, Magic, OW, CB).
     
  7. HegemonKhan

    HegemonKhan IncGamers Member

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    Re: a new type of paladin idea

    this guide-thread was written NOT about the old thorns-conversion type build. this guide-thread was more to be about NOT using thorns with the conversion skill. i wanted to write about a paladin who used other auras with conversion to enhance his converted minions jsut like a necro does with his minions or a paladin does with human party members. i did mention the thorns aura could be used for completeness but this was suppose to be about NOT using thorns as that is the old build from long ago.
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    eagle,

    this is off topic, but for your holy bolt medic build, i usually just use hamemrs to deal with the vemon lords. its not as strong as a fully synergized hammerdin of course but being unresistible the damage should still be able to kill anything. it might jsut take a few more casts with blessed ahmmer though cuz u dont have it fully synergized or using a max concentration aura.

    also, there's usually a hammerdin in your cs games as well with maxed concentration which u can use giving your hammers much more damage and u can be a 2nd but slightly weaker hammerdin for those vemon lords once u holy bolt sniper'ed the undead and especialy those annoying undead oblivion lords that the hamemrdin leaves alive which curses and causes the weaker characters to die while the hammer din charges around hitting the seal bosses.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    plz, talk about the holy bolt medic build on its thread as this thread is for conversion build, not holy bolt-prayer medic build.

    (sorry, i'm too lazy this time to find the holy bolt medic thread and link it)
     
  8. EagleEntek

    EagleEntek IncGamers Member

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    Re: a new type of paladin idea

    I WAS talking about convert - i just mentioned that on my bolter it worked better as a backup skill and not a primary one - as indeed mentioned by a post above the killing speed is very slow if you are relying on converted monsters solely to kill things.

    Fanatics with convert can utilise the converted monsters to do damage as the fanatic aura makes the converted monsters do more dmg and attack faster true, but they probably wont dent the monsters they are attacking too much - so it appears that in hell you are merely converting them so you have less to kill temporarily - then when you have killed what is currently on your screen you wait for your friends to turn and finish them off too.

    I did notice however an interesting side effect - Beetleburst in hell difficulty once spawned fire, cold, and light enchanted - converting his minions with low AR meant i took little hits from the lightning because i wasnt hitting them - but once they were all converted, Beetleburst himself actually killed them as they were not immune to his fr/cl/lt sparks - so he actually killed all his own minions enabling me to finish him by himself - an interesting mirror effect of that awfull glitch that so many people complain of.

    Physical immune bosses as mentioned above are also a problem - there are few monsters with elemental attacks that can actually dmg phys. immune once converted - and as far as i know you cannot get amp. dmg on any other char than a necro - but i suppose you could get conviction and remove it - if this does indeed remove phys. immune - and the converted could kill the boss.

    Just a shame that in hell skill it appears that convert is a better skill to swap your party getting swamped, and give you a bit of breathing space, as opposed to something you can use to kill with :undecided:

    (sry for rambling!)
     
  9. WarlockCC

    WarlockCC Diablo Classic Moderator

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    Re: a new type of paladin idea

    I use convert on my healer aswel. It's my emergency skill. "make friends". But I only use it to save my own behind, rarely for killing, since the venomlords end up with the same amount of life they had before being converted.
     
  10. HegemonKhan

    HegemonKhan IncGamers Member

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    Re: a new type of paladin idea

    hey sorry eagle, sinous siren, walrock.

    you are right, u were talking about convert. its my mistake for not being clear. humbly apologizes to eagle, sinous siren, warlock, and everyone else.
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    i made this thread to talk about conversion as the MAIN skill. this means using a converted monster army as your MAIN "attack" jsut like a summoning necro. this is a very different build compared to a holybolt-prayer medic build merely using conversion as a 2ndary skill. this thread is about how to make a paladin using a converted army equal or near equal to a summoning necro using his skel warrior, skel mage, revive army. only a paladin has to use his aura where a necro uses curses. sorry for not being clear again. this thread is NOT about the conversion skill in general for any build. it IS about making the conversion skill's converted army as a viable build itself, again like a summoning necro.
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    didn't mean to offend. just want this thread to stay on builds that use conversion as the MAIN skill (using a converted army as your "main attack" like a summoning necro does). so that maybe we (people) can figure out how to make conversion as the main skill viable. to me a medic-holy bolt build using conversion as 2ndary skill is different from trying to make a build that tries to use conversion as the main skill with auras supporting the converted army conversion makes.
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    i hope there's some way to make conversion effective in hell. though i have no idea how. as u mentioned the converted monsters even with auras still have a hard time even denting the hell monsters. this is why i started this thread. i wanna get a way found to make conversion viable in hell and hell cs.
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    the problem is that monsters get protection against phys damage that u can't lower or reduce at all. i forgot the name of these 2 types of damage "protection" that monsters have especially in hell difficulty.
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    fanaticism does give u and your party (converted monsters too) more speed and damage. HOWEVER, the damage given to party (converted monsters too) is very low compared to the damage u receive from fanaticism. And going with the monsters innate phys damage protection u want as much damage increase to your converted monsters as u can. concentration gives FULL damage to your party (converted monsters too) so this is probably better than fanaticism. also i dont think the attack speed from fanaticism is that important for your converted monsters. i think the damage from concentration is much more needed than attack speed.
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    a different idea, is to try using conviction and convert monsters with strong elem damage, which there ARE a lot of especially as u get nearer the end of the game (hell cs). as u get nearer and nearer the end of the game MOST monsters DO elem damage and not phys (hence why resists is SO much more important than def rating in pvm). so using conviction and converting monsters with strong elem damage MAY be viable rather than trying to some how get converted monsters to do enough phys damage to overcome the phys protection monsters got in hell and hell cs.
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    *being in a party makes any build viable*

    as u can get many different support skills on u and the monsters u are trying to kill.

    if u had a necro casting amp or LR on monsters, a paladin giving u (and your converted army) concentration, a paladin giving u (and your converted army) fanaticism, a paladin giving u (and your converted army) might, a paladin giving u (and your converted army) conviction, a sorceress giving u (and your converted army) enchant, etc....than even a paladin's converted monster army can probably (i'd imagine with all that enhancement) be able to wipe out norm-hell, act1-act4 easily
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2008
  11. Fearlessone

    Fearlessone IncGamers Member

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    Auras for the converting paladin and choosing converts

    Its important to choose your converts wherever you are in the game. Of course, emergency converts when swarmed - you can't be choosy - just panic convert a few. I like to convert Urdars, or raise them as minions with my necro. Fan and/or amp are just wonderful with them. But they do swing slowly, the doom knights are more numerous and swing more often. If you convert venom lords, then what aura will you choose? - conviction? I've tried that and their inferno still seems weak, unlike the Inferno on the Infector pack. It's absolutely necessary when playing any sort of weaker paladin (avenger, smiter, zealer, ranger..) to convert a minion or two in that mob, or you and the party has to stand way back and just as likely -> run! So I guess conviction is the aura of choice on that mob, esp if you have a sorc or lightning zon or foh backup. Sometimes you will have a hammerdin and *yawn* its all over in a few seconds, tho he still might die for the cause. A good ww barb can tank that mob, unless THE INFECTOR has conviction.. If there isn't a good barb or din or MM necro about, then your conversion/aura is a critical skill set for the party to be able to even play.

    Whenever I convert, I use the Holy Freeze aura, for safety since there is often lag, and multiple swats needed, and sometimes I use the wrong attack hotkey and don't convert at all.

    If you use a bow as your backup skill after converting, you will have to weapon switch and this is a real pain! Also, in hell a classic ranger needs either an amp curse to help him or a good chant.
     
  12. fredsta54

    fredsta54 IncGamers Member

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    Re: a new type of paladin idea

    i have a hc converiosn pala he works but i deleted him as he was not kikling fast enough

    converiosn lvl x
    20 conviction
    20 fanat
    20 thorns

    it works nad is fun but boiring and slow



    -fred
     

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