A different way to make WW PVM. I need some tips.

[churinga]

Re: A different way to make WW PVM. I need some tips.

Even a max speed berserk (or frenzy) will not out-damage/second whirlwind with any weapon that has enough IAS on it to reach the last WW breakpoint. And that's far from the only advantage WW has over berserk...

Try to use WW to clear Chaos Sanctuary...

Also, don't forget the very common 50% PDR of large potion of the Hell monsters, let alone the PIs...

 

[galzohar]

Re: A different way to make WW PVM. I need some tips.

Unless you're on hardcore or trying to reach 99, WW in chaos sanctuary is not nearly as bad. Granted you'll die occasionally but if clearing speed is what you're after rather than exp then WW is faster especially if that's where you spent your talent points (and therefore don't have fully synergizes berserk which btw also means you can't have BO maxed until very high levels while also maxing berserk+synergies). And if you're trying to level even a full berserk build is probably better off staying away from CS unless I'm missing something really hot about that zone...

http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act5.shtml
Note that there are even a non-neglicible number of monsters that have more magical resistance than physical. I didn't look at every single monster in the game to get good statistics, but the resists average over the different monsters seem to be rather evenly distributed with a little lower average magic resistance. Anyway whatever the difference in how common the different resistances are isn't even close to make up for the damage/second difference.

All of this was competely ignoring the availability of skill points (berserk costs 80, WW costs 40), having 0 defense, 0 leech and having to stand still when attacking.

 

[churinga]

Re: A different way to make WW PVM. I need some tips.

Have you tried to do Chaos runs with WW as the only killing skill? You will die at least once per game almost in every game... Of course, if you are not afraid to die, it's another story, but I'm assuming people do Chaos runs not only for MF but also for the experience.

Also, don't forget the guest monsters introduced in Hell difficulty, which may come from all other four acts in Act 5. And they may have very high PDR, even immunity (such as Wraith and Stygian Fury). You will not be able to leech either life or mana with WW, and your mana will dry very quickly after a few WWs. Berserk, compared to WW, is better to be suited in these situations. Although you cannot leech, my berserker uses Pheonix shield+weapon on switch, and whenever my life or mana runs low, I just need to switch weapon for a few seconds, and the balls are full again.

For skill points, I don't think any Berserker will max all synergies first before maxing BO. BO is the first skill to max out. And my Berserker Barb will be able to max all synergies at lvl 97 or 98. He is lvl 87 now, and he is already dealing 15k max magic damage before the 80%+ effective deadly strike. He can one shot monsters most of the time in multiplayer games. I have confidence that my Berserker can clear Chaos faster than a WW barb..

The downside is, of course, sometimes, big purp pots are necessary, for example when you are cursed with amplify damage and fighting a bunch of Champions.. But you usually can get the purp pots back after killing them

I'm not saying that I don't like WW Barbs or have a biased mind. WW is great either in PvP or in PvM. But for PvM, other builds, like Berserker, may be more viable in certain areas or for certain purposes. Like my Chaos run Barb, Berserker seems to be much better than WW to me. But for other areas, WW may be more suitable.

 

[galzohar]

Re: A different way to make WW PVM. I need some tips.

With very basic gear, WW will deal 5.5~7.5 (depending on might merc or not) times the damage of your weapon every 4 frames. Berserk will at best deal (if you skip BO which you aren't even doing) 12.7~14 times the damage of your weapon every 9 frames (max speed) if you have a large amount of IAS/fast weapon.

Doing simple math will show you that berserk will do similar damage/second if you max all synergies and wear enough IAS (witout fanat 125%). Plus you get no leech and have to stand still while attacking. All that just to deal about the same damage, which means if you're doing anything less than that you will do less damage.

I highly doubt ditching WW for berserk just so you can run chaos sanctuary is worthwhile unless you really insist on doing chaos with your barb on a regular basis and getting good exp there (aka non-MF runs, as if you don't care about exp-loss if you keep a TP close and are a little careful WW will speed you up more than deaths will slow you down).

For any place where IM is not an issue, WW just wins for doing at least the same damage with less gear, getting leech, and not having to stand still with 0 defense to attack.


Also remember that the numbers I was using assume no ED from gear or crazy stuff like additional auras - the more ED% you have on your gear/auras/skills the better WW becomes, as it gets multiplied by a faster attack speed.

Say weapon damage is X, you get +40% ED with WW, you'll gain 0.4*X*25/4=2.5X damage/second. With berserk you'll get 0.4*X*25/9=1.11X damage/second. So even if you have the duped overpowered runewords you can still make WW much stronger than berserk due to the high ED% (ED to demons/undead work too against demons/undeads of course) you can achieve, which helps WW more than it helps berserk. And with bad gear berserk will not have the IAS or the IAS will cost a lot of survivability on top of standing still with 0 defense.

Berserk is the "I have so much duped gear I can do whatever I feel like and still kill great" more than "I want to kill the best I can" kind of skill.

 

[churinga]

Re: A different way to make WW PVM. I need some tips.

Berserk is the "I have so much duped gear I can do whatever I feel like and still kill great" more than "I want to kill the best I can" kind of skill.

This, I STRONGLY disagree. If you have built a Berserker before, you shouldn't have said that. Also, you need to consider that the Berserker is a 2-hander, not one, which means weapon damage is roughly double of a one-hander.

Not only in Chaos Sanctuary, Berserk is generally suited for all situations in Hell in all Acts, and WW is just too limited. So many areas are not WW-oriented. Like the Plain of Despair (the Souls, you cannot leech Mana from them), The WSK level 3, the Throne, Mana Burn Travincal. Yeah, of course, you can argue that a WW Barb can choose never to go to those areas, but that's not what my solution to everything. To myself, the Berserker Barb is my Chaos runner, since I'm a Barb fan, and my other Barbs, including WW Barb, Conc Barb, are not suitable for Chaos runs or other areas, he is my solution.

I agree that damage per sec wise, WW may top Berserk, but like I mentioned, high PDR of the monsters and immunities are doom for physical damage, besides since you cannot leech mana from PIs, and WW costs too much mana, you will have a hard time continuing with WW. Berserk is a completely different story. If you haven't even tried, I strongly suggest you take a shot. :thumbsup:

 

[BierWiser]

Re: A different way to make WW PVM. I need some tips.

I have some last questions that I need help with. I'm going to see if I can get it answered in this thread without having to make a new one.

I am using swords so that they are both indestructible. Does a 35% IAS Phase Blade and the 60% IAS Colossus Blade reach the last breakpoint for WW?

Does it matter what weapon is primary and secondary for the best WW?

What mercenary would be best with the weapon layout I have?

Mercenary: Might Act II
Weapon: Infinity Cryptic Axe (I heard this works better than Pride)
Helm Vampire Gaze
Armor: Fortitude Archon Plate or Chains of Honor?

Mercenary: Ice Arrow Rogue
Weapon: Faith Great Bow
Helm Vampire Gaze
Armor: Treachery Archon Plate

I've often heard that this Mercenary dies a lot, but it does provide the lost Fanaticism.

 

[churinga]

Re: A different way to make WW PVM. I need some tips.

Yes, they both reach the last WW bp. WW checks weapon speed and bp separately for the two weapons, so they have to both reach the last bp to maximize WW efficiency.

I cannot think of any aspect where Infinity is superior to Pride... to a WW Barb...

Also, Rogue Merc dies much more rarely than Act 2 Merc.

 

[BierWiser]

Re: A different way to make WW PVM. I need some tips.

Yes, they both reach the last WW bp. WW checks weapon speed and bp separately for the two weapons, so they have to both reach the last bp to maximize WW efficiency.

I cannot think of any aspect where Infinity is superior to Pride... to a WW Barb...

Also, Rogue Merc dies much more rarely than Act 2 Merc.

Ah, thanks for the information. On my final decisions, though, I am definitely going with the Might Mercenary with Pride.

 

[churinga]

Re: A different way to make WW PVM. I need some tips.

Ah, thanks for the information. On my final decisions, though, I am definitely going with the Might Mercenary with Pride.

Smart choice! :thumbsup: It definitely gives you the highest enhanced damage possible from Auras. But, watch for Iron Maiden... :lipsrsealed: