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A 3D version of D2 with 2 new classes.

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by In the name of Zod, Jul 3, 2010.

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  1. In the name of Zod

    In the name of Zod IncGamers Member

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    A 3D version of D2 with 2 new classes.

    A very critical post from someone almost completely ignorant of any new D3 news. I'm not going to get personal either so say what you want but its unlikely to get a response if you're just a dedicated D3 luv'r.

    The monk looks good and it's probably the best reason right now to even bother with this title. I'm a person that thought Titan Quest was the absolute pits - it sucked in every facet of being considered a d2 clone. Another reason for eventually getting this game is if the modifications are reasonable.

    I'm seriously hoping that they continue to use the hash table methodology for speedy database lookups. This will allow this large store of mods that we've taken for granted in D2. However, if its just a rehash of an old technology then its only a 3d version of the same product.

    Looking at the barb and wizard, nothing but pure disappointment!!! At this point I really can't see why this new title will last anywhere as long as D2 has. Why would anyone want to play the same game for another 10 years? :yawn:

    Ok, so we have some fancy skill runes to spice things up a bit. On top of this, one could argue that by using similar skills will allow for some familiarity-of-concept for players. Good for you I guess.

    Seriously though, Blizz would have to be the last place an aspiring game designer would want to work right now due to there lack of adapting new concepts. Tried and true = $$$ = Blizz. What a shame! :greedy:

    Now I know why they dumped Blizz North. Cause they were making good, fresh and inspirational new products which didn't fit into the mould. :coffee:
     
  2. Sass

    Sass IncGamers Member

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    Re: A 3D version of D2 with 2 new classes.

    I'm no expert on the databases, but surely there can't be such drastic changes in the methods of storing game data that using the same you are familiar with will be bad.




    If tried and true = Blizz, then why are they changing things so drastically?




    I don't know the full details on dropping Blizz North, but it might be because they can't come close to being as good as D1 and D2. The new D3, however, is closer than the other clone games.





    I will agree on the classes being very similar. Barb is obviously = barb, and same with wiz = sorc, WD tries to = nec, Monk = paladin, and the 5th seems likely to be ranged, which would = zon.

    But, there are only so many archetypes. D1 already covered all of them. D2 kinda split them into hybrids for some (nec had melee focus in a way, the paladin could be a caster as well, the zon had ranged and melee covered, etc).
     
  3. raveharu

    raveharu IncGamers Member

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    Re: A 3D version of D2 with 2 new classes.

    And is the barb and wizard, gameplay wise, exceptions being having a few old skills, similar to D2? Maybe you should do more research instead of complaining with such weak excuses :rolleyes:

    Do you know the storyline? No.
    Do you know that the Wizard and Barbarian are getting a new "mana" system? I don't think so.

    I wonder how you can deduce that it will be a complete clone of D2. Oh wait, it's still a Diablo franchise, do you even know that?

    Some? Not really, I can't say that for now, Blizzard said they have made runes such that they completely change what a simple skill does into something more complex.

    There are new concepts they are integrating in the game, but I wouldn't dare and want to flame Blizzard when all I have is info about a year ago. (for you it would be zero) Makes one look like a fool :rolleyes:

    Who cares. And looking at the garbage Hellgate became, no one else would. Glad they kicked out Blizzard North.


     
  4. Kraszu

    Kraszu IncGamers Member

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    Re: A 3D version of D2 with 2 new classes.

    That is so worse then now trendy=$$$. Most of those new concepts are just dumbing down the games, to make gamed easier for mainstream (auto heal regeneration that makes almost all encounters pointless before that health was limited resource in FPS so you had to avoid any dmg, even encounter with few "weak" enemies could matter. try to play doom as carelessly as you can play GoW), and with sub par control systems for aiming of hide behind the wall take as much time as you want, and aim at a spot where enemies expose himself in predictable ways, that had really improved the gamplay of FPS. (Doom had ~infinitely better gameplay then GoW, and it could had been played with gamepad just fine)


     
  5. Moonfrost

    Moonfrost IncGamers Member

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    Re: A 3D version of D2 with 2 new classes.

    Well duh, of course the games look similar if you didn't bother to read up on the changes. At first glance they're both ARPGs that belong to the same franchise, so naturally there's going to be a lot of similarities between the two.

    In all fairness, we haven't actually had a ton of new info to process since Blizz is keeping their mouth shut until Blizzcon in October, but after that you should expect them to make a few annoucementa regarding the fifth class, the new skill system and some other systems too. Stuff that'll help differentiate the two games, in other words.
     
  6. Leugi

    Leugi IncGamers Member

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    Re: A 3D version of D2 with 2 new classes.

    Funny, with the title I totally expected the oposite of this thread... Saying, "D3 is not in any way Diablo!!!! I'd rather have a 3D version of D2 with 2 new classes!!!"

    But yeah, I guess not all bashers use the same arguments...

    They're pretty much conceptually equal, but have some differences...

    The Barb now uses Fury instead of mana, whether the change is good or bad or huge or small, it depends on the individual...

    The Wiz is no longer so "elemental-focused, and now uses instability instead of mana... We don't know much of instability for the time being, so it's rather hard to say how much of a difference it makes...

    And thus they made Torchlight and Hellgate... Never played the games but people seem to not like them as much (Well, mostly Hellgate, Torchlight is loved by many, but not exactly for being innovative I think)

    --------------------------------

    So, new things:

    · Skill trees are gone... sadly enough we don't know what will we have instead...

    · The inventory system has changed, now we don't play tetris with the items...

    · Each class has a different system instead of mana (the only mana-user is the WD)

    · Random quests different to the static quests D2 had. So, replayability might be nice.

    · Certain special bosses with special scripted events like the Thousand Pounder.
     
  7. Slevinn

    Slevinn IncGamers Member

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    Re: A 3D version of D2 with 2 new classes.

    Something that people don't seem to realize is that the game is still fairly early in its development. We've seen 1% of the actual game and it's content. Things could still change. 85% of the gameplay we know right now could change drastically. Yeah, of course it's going to be very similar to its predecessors because they're, in a sense, the same game, with some differences here and a dash of variety there.

    Even after BlizzCon, things are still going to change drastically. If people aren't going to like D3, then don't play the freaking game. I don't care, and all of the previous posters aren't going to care. Doesn't affect us any.

    Enjoy the info you have, drool over the videos you've downloaded, and just play something else until it's out.
     
  8. Apocalypse

    Apocalypse IncGamers Member

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    Re: A 3D version of D2 with 2 new classes.

    the only thing i have seen so far that will effect replayability is the ability to respec. probably just my point of view though i just cant imagine playing the game as long when i only use 5 characters as opposed to 10 or so
     
  9. In the name of Zod

    In the name of Zod IncGamers Member

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    Re: A 3D version of D2 with 2 new classes.

    What I look at is the difference between D1 & D2 and its huge. This is thanks to Blizz North so anyone who can't appreciate this is extremely ungrateful and ignorant of some very obvious facts. Blizz North ruled period and now we're lumped with the same ole same old recipe cooked up over 10 years ago. :thumbup:

    Even the map areas are largely the same. They change the graphics style because some 2 year olds don't like the color. Do these people have any direction at all? You generally develop a design document before committing to anything like this. What's happening? Has that cash cow WoW sent dumb dumb to brain so banana fridge is funny? :hammerhead:

    The point is all that is substantially new is 2 new character classes and 3D. The rest could be in D2 1.14a-b-c whatever.
     
  10. Sass

    Sass IncGamers Member

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    Re: A 3D version of D2 with 2 new classes.

    Yes, other than the vast differences, it's the same.
     
  11. Leugi

    Leugi IncGamers Member

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    Re: A 3D version of D2 with 2 new classes.

    Because Torchlight is so utterly and incredibly innovative...


     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2010
  12. Moonfrost

    Moonfrost IncGamers Member

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    Re: A 3D version of D2 with 2 new classes.

    Personally, I can actually see myself playing the game more knowing I won't have to level up another character just to try out another build. A lack of respecs only adds replayability to the more hardcore kind of players; to others it likely does the opposite.


     
  13. Kraszu

    Kraszu IncGamers Member

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    Re: A 3D version of D2 with 2 new classes.

    Oh yeah copying the outdoor areas from real world was so much creative when Blizzard North had done it. Adding outdoor areas is hardly an creative idea in itself.

    Tweaking colors is not changing the grapchics style. The diferent grapchics style of outdoor areas was planned before, that had not changed.

    Re-balancing game so that the potions can't be spammed, and getting new way to regenerate health (health globes).

    Different resource system for every class. It will impact gameplay, and has chance of making classes more diverse.

    Skill runes that allows for customization of how will your skills work. If they will do good work of that then it will improve the game allot.

    Improved quest:
    http://www.diablowiki.net/Quest


     
  14. permaximum

    permaximum Banned

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    Re: A 3D version of D2 with 2 new classes.

    Some clarifications for clueless people:

    1. There are only 4 people (one composer, one producer type man, one network dev for the upcoming mmo and one dev involved with the actual game) from Blizzard North in Runic Games. There were near 50 devs in Blizzard North. So saying Torchlight is Blizzard North's work is silly.
    2. Blizzard North founders resigned because they wanted to involve in Blizzard's sale. Vivendi didn't want to allow them to involve in and so Vivendi accepted their resignations. After the departures of Diablo's creators, other Diablo devs left the company one by one until 2005 when Blizzard decided to shut down North.
    3. There are random quests which are in fact side quests. Main quests are still static.
    4. Boss encounter details are currently unknown. If you call thousand pounder a special scripted boss then we don't agree on what's a special scripted boss encounter.

    There are no real gameplay innovations or changes in D3. Diablo 3 has been criticised because of it's art style, atmosphere that involves music and graphics, technology. Which means Diablo 3 won't be a true Diablo sequel because of it's art style, musics and atmosphere. But when it comes to gameplay Diablo 3 just copies D2. It looks a little bit slow and there are different resources for each D2 copy class (except Monk who doesn't fit into Diablo). But we all saw the fury system. It was a fail. It didn't bring that so-called unique aspect to Barbarian. So, don't get too hopeful for other resource systems. Health-gain method is changed but it doesn't affect the gameplay in a serious way. It can affect boss encounters but there will be lots of demons, monsters near which means health treasure. This is no different than potion-spam. Skill system won't be so different as Bashiok pointed out. Tree, pool or river. It doesn't matter as longs as there are requirements and caps. Skill runes will make skills stronger in various ways. Some runes will work just like putting a point to a specified skill. Still there will be visual difference for some. That's the only real change.

    What about the gameplay changes and innovations D2 had brung to D1?
     
  15. Slevinn

    Slevinn IncGamers Member

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    Re: A 3D version of D2 with 2 new classes.

    Apparently you never played the previous Diablo games before?

    I don't understand the people that want some gigantic gameplay changes. You say its all too close to the same to Diablo 2. If you want a game that plays completely different, then GO PLAY a different game.


     
  16. Kraszu

    Kraszu IncGamers Member

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    Re: A 3D version of D2 with 2 new classes.

    Only if the game will be way too easy, but if that will be the case then pretty much no gameplay change matters. If you kill somebody, and you will have little life left then even if he will leave an health globe the next mob will move at its place, and with ranger character getting to it could be risky.


     
  17. Apocalypse

    Apocalypse IncGamers Member

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    Re: A 3D version of D2 with 2 new classes.

    i dont think you understood my point at all, or maybe you just quoted the wrong post. all i said is for me the game might have less replayability cause of respec ability i never said anything about the game being too much like d2 or too different or anything. i like the way the game is going so far. alot of things i am unsure of like how characters will use their skills but i am trusting it will be good enough.

    my point is the d2 end game was really boring, as bad as it can get imo for end game content. if d3 is the same way then respecs will limit the replay factor in my opinion, if the end game is actually good then the respec option could be nice


     
  18. Sass

    Sass IncGamers Member

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    Re: A 3D version of D2 with 2 new classes.

    Perm...wow...


    @1: It wasn't claimed that Torchlight was purely by Blizz North people or even so much as a majority of Blizz North being involved. That comment was taken out of the wrong context.


    I haven't followed Blizz North like a hawk or anything, so a quick search on Wikipedia:


    Only ~30 people left from Blizzard North, not 50.

    8 went to Flagship, and 9 to Castaway.

    All 14 involved in the Seattle Flagship (Mythos) moved on to Runic Games.



    Almost a third of Blizzard North were involved in Torchlight. We already knew it was a Runic Games game, not from Blizzard North. We also know a lot worked on it and that it still wasn't innovative. It was nice, but as a Diablo game it'd have failed.




    @2: It seems they also wanted an indepedent game, but was forced to be canceled. On top of this, the quality of their D3 was too poor for Blizzard's standards.

    With Hellgate as a somewhat reasonable example of their ARPG, it wouldn't have worked well with the Diablo series.




    @4: Then define it as seen by you. :S

    We don't know much about bosses, but we do know some:

    1) The Thousand Pounder used a ritual to summon him and he doesn't appear until it's done.

    2) Upon his death, monsters are spawned and begin to attack.

    3) This is different than the ordinary monsters who already appear. Some can be summoned such as those by the cultists, so a shared special feature.

    4) The same spawn-on-death can be seen by the Siege Breaker's death, which indicates a potentially common trait between boss monsters that we didn't see with ordinary monsters.

    5) King Leoric was similar in that a certain thing happens before he is ready to fight.

    6) All three monsters (Thousand Pounder, Siege Breaker and King Leoric) require scripted events.

    All evidence points to them being special (bosses after all), and scripted (all have events). I'd really like to know your definition and how it explains each of these facts.


    Compared to all other games, this is correct. Compared to Diablo games, this is false.

    Gameplay has been changed due to a different way of using skills, the inability to abuse potions, lack of TPing out of danger, etc. There are indeed changes.

    Indubitably.

    Now, why was it criticized? [/ rhetorical]

    Art: It's 3D. There will always be a big change due to that alone. Still, there are others, which are intended. Examples are the "epic" direction, a smoother blend of skill effects that don't clash like previously, keeping it dark yet visible, and the "painted" graphic effects applied to the backgrounds.

    Atmosphere: Dark dungeon crawl. Add in a feeling of power and you get D3.

    Music: We've hardly even heard much of it. It's absurd to include music as a reason why it "won't be a true Diablo sequel" (<----purely an opinion) due the small sample size. Adding more would not even help. D2 had new music, D3 does as well. It's what sequels do.

    Graphics (which uses technology, so lumped together): This was already debunked in a separate topic. They aim for a low requirement on soft- and hardware on purpose. They want it available to people, and don't want new, potentially expensive soft-and hardware to be a requirement.

    With lower requirements, D3 has so far mimicked effects found in the later editions of the two "big" graphics software (direct and open). Other than knowing it it aimed at low requirements, we don't even know what it's using specifically. It would be reasonable to assume both would be used in the game (as a toggle or installation option) due to the various OS's used by potential fans.




    Nostalgic people will always plague places with fallacious comments on how things "aren't Diablo anymore", or it not being a "true" Diablo game.

    Taken from a LEGO board, but sub the company and franchise name with Blizz and Diablo and you get the picture:

    The slowness is what is known as a change in gameplay. ;)

    The monk comment is also purely your taste. Factually, he fits Diablo. You just don't like him, and that is perfectly fine. Something about his gameplay, looks, fighting style, defenses, or whatever unstated reason makes you dislike him. It happens. I, for instance, have never taken well to ranged attackers. I'm not going to say they don't fit though (not even the clearly Greek-oriented Amazons).


    To call it not fitting is completely separate from not liking it.

    No, this is false. The barb's fury orbs became problematic. This is very different from fury being problematic. From here:
    From a post by stillman:
    It is understandable how it can be confusing.



    This only focused on the orbs being the problem. Fury worked in WoW in concept and the WC3 Diablo patch as well.

    In terms of function, it is the equivalent of having DTM% and Mana Leech% for gaining with a gradual mana drain.

    It is very different than potion spam.

    To equate it to Diablo, it is like having only Rejuvenation potions (due to the instant heal rather than the slow one of regular pots) and only able to use one every 10 or so monster kills and at boss HP levels of ~75, 50, 25 and 0% (these are based on some of what we've seen but are in no way concrete facts as of now). Oh, and zero source of life steal% or any chance to cast life tap in any way. Regular HP are available, but with a time delay between use (let's try ~60 seconds).

    If you play melee and give that a try, you will quickly notice a very significant difference.



    Having a health globe in a crowd is effectively like having the life tap or life steal% in that it leaves you at full (or near) HP when exiting a battle. However, you also have to move to the orb if it's not near the char (obstacles to deal with), and click on it which will deter killing focus (slight, but not a click-and-hold function like a lifetap smiter was).

    :O This is actually true! Even you can do it once in a while :D

    I always saw trees as a simple way to organize a lot of skills in a way that doesn't take a lot of space (like D1's lack of "trees", but had tabs to flip back and forth between what it showed). Pre-reqs were occasionally just a skill waste.


    It's much more than a visual change. Some runes change the damage and entire function of the skill.








    @ the respecs:

    From my experience (mostly this will apply to a sorc), it is a way to focus the skill and stats, then change them to end game once I get there.

    The skills are focused in that, for a sorc, I can put points in one tree and use only that one element. In Hell, this is a bad idea due to the use of Immunes. But for normal and NM, I can rely on that one element rather well and thus have the damage needed to kill and level (MF a bit too).

    Once I enter Hell, I can respec and have a second element to deal with the on-coming immunes.


    For stats, I know mana can be problematic early. I can stat Energy and not damage my end game by doing that rather than life or STR/DEX for gear reqs. Once I get those items, I can spend the STR/DEX and equip them, but focus on living until I get there.

    This can be particularly useful for a char intended for PvP who would otherwise have to hoard just about every point before making the final result (heavily relies on rushing and leeching XP). Now, I can have fun leveling + have that "hoarding" result.




    I did manage to turn a pure kicker into a kick/trap hybrid. Personally, it just saved me the time of rushing and leveling when I wanted the end result rather than the experience of leveling. I do on occasion indulge in leveling (no rushing / leeching), but not all the time.
     
  19. raveharu

    raveharu IncGamers Member

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    Re: A 3D version of D2 with 2 new classes.

    Seriously someone who hasn't got his facts right and then trying to label others as "clueless", goes to show ALOT :rolleyes:

    Wow Sass you totally owned that dumbdumb :thumbup:

    Ok about respecs, I wouldn't think of it to be as easy as getting it as D2.

    The essences are dropped by the Bosses, and apparently Boss farming in D2 is way too easy. And add to that teleport abuse, quest bug and rushing. You can get to Hell and 80s in 1 day. Apparently it is impossible for Blizzard to change or prevent it because the game is too old, too flawed and it's completely pointless to change the mechanics of the game. But heck, they'll just include respecs anyway.

    I don't understand why you would want to complain about replay factor. You'll be going through the game 3 times. Ok so you're finally in Hell mode, and heck you added a skill point wrongly, and you'll have to go through normal and nightmare all over again. Now majority wouldn't want to recreate the character and go through the entire game because of putting the wrong skills. It's a big turnoff, as Blizzard thinks of pros>cons.

    I wouldn't worry about the end game content, because Blizzard has learned the mistakes made in D2, and most certainly wouldn't want history to repeat itself.


     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2010
  20. Leugi

    Leugi IncGamers Member

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    Re: A 3D version of D2 with 2 new classes.

    Hmn, well admitively... it might have been implied from the bad wording of my last post, but yeah I wasn't saying that Torchilight is a pure Blizz North creation, my apologies if it was understood that way.

    Well, I didn't want to continue the discussion but this one got me rather curious...

    I don't really think I've seen a random quest per se on D2 (note I only played SP all my life), so maybe D1 has some? (note I never played D1) I only want to know which random quests you speak about... (it's honest curiosity, really)

    -------------------------------------

    Just some few little things I'd like to add...

    1. For those saying the monk is not Diablo-ish... That's really a matter of taste, I for one love the class and consider it fitting, and there are others too... As there are others that hate him... So, it's probably hard to say whether the monk IS diablo-ish or not...

    2. D3 has some style differences to D2, that's somewhat certain (hence the eternal art-debate)...

    That already generates a "not diablo feeling" to many of the bashers...

    If Blizz changed way more things about gameplay I assure you the bashers will anyways bash because it "doesn't feel like Diablo no more"... Even if the rest of the changes were great and innovative...

    3. The departure of Blizzard North is not as apocaliptic as some seem to believe...

    Blizz North made two great games and that's probably why we are here... That's something I think we all agree on...

    Now that Blizz is making D3 people already believe it will fail just for the fact Blizz North is not there...

    Something that particularly permaximum always angers about is the fact that we are rather fanatical Blizzard fans rather than Diablo fans... But many of the bashers fall down to the other side of the coin, they are more "Blizzard North" fans than Diablo fans...

    I'm not saying that Blizzard is doing a good or better job than Blizz North, but it's not like we have a choice, Blizz North no longer exists, and thinking all Diablo games not made by Blizz North are going to absolutely fail is rather unnecessary/unfair...

    4. We are at an early stage of development, until Blizzcon many things can already change and we're making a storm out of a glass... There are not many new things for some of us due to the fact that we have not yet seen the game reach a near-final stage, we don't know many things that might or might not be added to the final game...

    -------------------------------------------

    Let's see and hope Blizzcon brings us something new and interesting to debate around, I'm really getting tired of seeing the same debates all over again (art style, graphics quality, monk, diablo feeling, WoW sucks, etc etc)


     
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