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99 theorycrafting and stuff like that

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by zgpmf, Jul 11, 2012.

  1. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    Checking how much xp gives Nihl on basin wiki + info about xp penalty for level 98 + players 8 setting, to beat 2.5 million xp/hour you have to kill Nihl in less than 32 secs to be more efficient leveling target.

    From what I see, Nihl has 0 physical resistance and ~120100 HP on p8 with 50% block... I believe well built smiter can kill him in 3 secs of smiting, even faster if we include Reaper's Tool on merc, but I didn't look into it in depth... I don't see a reason why pala shouldn't be able to deal with Nihl faster than 25 secs at average if barb can do it in 21.5 secs.

    Grief (1.07 eth atma bugged BA best) + spirit shield + all in to have maximum smite damage + maxed fanaticism + 8 skillers + etc etc. Don't know what kind of dangers are at Nihl area, but if you kill him in few secs, I guess you won't stay there for too long to find out.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2014
  2. pharphis

    pharphis IncGamers Site Pal

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    If you have a little bit of iDR (vipers do 60-80 on p8 iirc w/o auras every other frame) or simply 50% DR, vipers aren't much of an issue unless nihl has might/fanat. In those cases, it's probably worth skipping the run (~1/50 iirc) especially for single target attacks like those on a smiter
     
  3. Grape

    Grape IncGamers Member

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    Thanks a lot! So it seems I could reach higher exp/hour with Nihlathak. 32 seconds doesn't sound too much to ask for. I'll probably run some test runs with lower lvl Paladin first, dying is not an option anymore.

    I've 1.07 eth atma bugged BA, yes. But I believe PB works just as good when just smiting. Might be even better cause no additional IAS needs for max smite speed.

    I'll see what I can do! I've also seen merc wearing (beta) delirium, reaper's and ias armor paralyzing all the monsters down there pretty fast. I could also add life tap to mix with either exile or dracul's.
     
  4. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    With Phase Blade you don't need additional ias from equipment, that is correct. Downside is, your smite damage will be lower (I'm assuming by ~500 damage per hit roughly) and your smite range will be lower. Also depends on what will you end up using really. I would have level 27-29 Fana on that thing which means I need 50 IAS to get fastest smite speed, so 35+ Grief + random IAS jewel in hat will do the trick. With a bit lower you need 37 ias on Grief to hit fastest breakpoint for example.

    Exile and dracul are defensive options, sure. Since you will do testing with other paladin, then your first priority would be to test setup which offers fastest killing and teleporting, which means 125 fcr + highest damage output Smite. If that works perfectly aka you feel very safe, then you found your ideal setup for running. That's how I'd build my Smiter since idea is to get as fast you can to Nihl + kill him the fastest way possibly (also means BA will be used). And then if you feel like you need some defensive options, then Exile or Dracul's or whatever come into plan, otherwise they might only slow you down. Ah yes, 125 fcr setup might be tricky to get, you need good amulet in combo with either Griffon or circlet. If not, then 75 fcr is good to go.
     
  5. Grape

    Grape IncGamers Member

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    Thanks for the feedback!

    I'll report here what I find out. Could be by the end of the week. Or later :D
     
  6. helvete

    helvete IncGamers Member

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    I don't get why one base item would be more damaging per hit than another when using grief for smiting? Only the actual +dmg gets added to smite, right?
     
  7. Corrupted

    Corrupted IncGamers Member

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    You should be able to go higher than 2,5/h doing CS by improving your technique/eliminating "bad" habits. IIRC I managed ~2.9/h on Samsara with 10k hammers doing p7 seals. I haven't tried a smiter but I believe scrcrw made a short video of one running Nihlathak.
     
  8. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    Thank you for correction, I made mistake. Apparently I misunderstood smite damage formula and took it's weapon damage that is added to smite, and not only +damage modifier. In the end smite is even weaker than I thought, lol. So yes, advantage of BA is range, while advantage of PB is non-IAS slot for max smiting, everything else is the same.

    Actually only if you go for max block. If not, BA again wins cause you won't invest tons of points to dexterity. I'm not really sure how important max block is on paladin for Nihlathak since that paladin will have like 12k defense? I'm clueless about it and might try to make Nihl smiter to see what is important, and what is not.
     
  9. Zylo

    Zylo IncGamers Member

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    I've been toying with the idea of doing a CS Barb. scrcrw linked a video of one doing CS with some pretty impressive times. I guess my questions are: How does CS compare in leveling 90-98, or is it really only used/useful in 98-99 leveling? The video doesn't show gear, but shows two 1h axes. I'm guessing Atma bugged Grief and then a Beast. How would a 2h weapon stack up to this? (In CS, could a titan build be feasible? Seems like you're scaring most enemies away while you berserk and become most vulnerable.) Has anyone else tried running a berserk barbarian?

    I'm in the process now of leveling a berserk barbarian. Sorry if a lot of these questions have been answered in this thread, or are common knowledge. I haven't actually ever had a high level berserk barbarian, and have never had a CS runner. With that being said, I thought I'd ask before spending all the time it takes to level and gear the character up. Some first hand knowledge and experience would be greatly appreciated, and will hopefully either give me encouragement or save me several hours. Thanks in advance.
     
  10. pharphis

    pharphis IncGamers Site Pal

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    Zerk is slow for killing groups (not AoE!) and hence it would make CS a slow route for 90-98. Ofc, Diablo is the main source beyond there... though nihl *should* be more efficient for 98-99 for a single target attack, anyway.
     
  11. Zylo

    Zylo IncGamers Member

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    Yeah, but I was thinking if you were doing CS, you would just be doing the 3 seal bosses and then Big-D. So AoE isn't really what you'd be after anyway, since you'd be fearing everyone but the guys you need to kill. I've done some more reading, and have found why 90-98 would be better suited as a WW barb and Baaling.(So disregard those earlier questions.) I'm still interested in how a 2h berserk barb would fair in CS though, but I'll finish leveling up my barb and do some testing on that.(I've found if I play him right after my hunter druid, he seems like he kills as fast as a single tree sorc on normal.)
     
  12. pharphis

    pharphis IncGamers Site Pal

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    Oh I figured you meant just the seal bosses and big D, but the easiest way to get exp for early levels is from killing most minions from bosspacks.. which a single target char can't really do that effectively. (shh FoH has AoE ;))
     
  13. Espr

    Espr IncGamers Member

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    @Zylo Which video? Also, coincidentally, I'm doing CS with a telezerker.

    So, thoughts on CS with berserk, keeping in mind I'm basically running this with a MF set-up:

    A shield is only really necessary if you need it for resists, as the main threat is Mr Seis. I can never remember whether or not anything he does is blockable, but I imagine a 2h weapon would have an easier time keeping him pinned down and in hit recovery so that would compare somewhat favourably if anything were blockable.

    A stormshield is helpful overall, of course, and can free up other gear/inv slots for MF options or what have you, but not necessary. I would however be somewhat concerned with using a 2H depending on the weapon speed/frames. You can gear around it, of course, but some weapons might ask too much IAS of you to your liking when you consider decrep or holy freeze.

    Fabian's skills set-up for his pit running telezerker works great with a couple of modifications, namely: get leap, and battle cry, and no need for double swing if going 1h/shield or 2h, of course. Leap attack is marginally useful for killing a fleeing Seis from time to time but it can be skipped, leap is the important one for clearing you some space as CS is very often remarkably claustrophobic when you aren't killing much.

    Titaning: I'm split pretty evenly between str and vit with 300VIT and 325STR after gear, running at ~2700life and that feels safe enough, but like i'm occasionally doing a bit of gamling with Seis's dps when he rolls bad mods. Having more than 1 point in BO and better vita charm options than I do would certainly allow one to put a fair number more points into str than I do atm. (most of my good fine/sharp charms are of STR rather than life, so I lose out on some efficiency there).

    I previously rand with ~500 and ~700 less life and it was fine for everything but every now and then Lord de Seis would spawn with the wrong mods in the wrong spot (unable to reasonably separate him from the pack, or a significant OK population in the area), and there was definitely some nearly-instant-death potential.

    So I would say no low life as a melee in CS isn't really a thing, but low vita could potentially be depending on BO skill level, and how much life from dps/resist charms you can get.

    EXP: It's alright. I worked out it'd take roughly 1000 runs for 95-96 +- depending on extra uniques/champs I kill. How efficient it is vs other areas depends on your run times. I'm averaging about 2m runs at a pretty comfortable pace (not pushing/rushing myself too much), or 100,000xp/m +-10,000 here and there depending on which base monster type gets unique-ified. That's with some fairly rough/rounded/averaged math and eyeballing my exp numbers, though, nothing super exact, and not counting any exp shrines. And a habit of rounding down because I'd rather over-estimate and be pleasantly surprised, than underestimate and be sad. ;) I have no doubt Baal+WW is faster xp, and worse MF.

    MF: I treat my CS runs like a mix between exp runs and MF runs, in both gear and playstyle. I don't hunt down every bosspack that spawn in the area, but on my way to the seals I will stop to kill any I find along the way that won't take too long to kill+hork. This mostly means I'll skip the occasional extra-obnoxious OK unique/champion-pack, and the odd unique/champions that is too crowded to howl clear quickly. So far, with my current map, I've never had less than 3 extra bosspacks that I will stop for, so, the bare minimum is:

    6 boss packs + act boss @ 2m/run (not sure what the real average is tbh, but 5+3 isn't uncommon)

    That almost certainly beats my personal efficiency in the pits MF wise depending on how one converted diablo into bosspacks per second, because playing at fabian or gripp speeds is beyond me. And the xp is of course faster than in pits. :)

    All that said, I think it's a pretty fun character+place to run, that strikes a nice balance between MF efficiency (where pits wins) and EXP (where baal with WW wins).
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2015
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  14. pharphis

    pharphis IncGamers Site Pal

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    Let me double check something... are you using howl at de seis or no? This seems like a good counter for him (and ever other boss). This would even allow higher /p settings if you want more exp, imo.
     
  15. Espr

    Espr IncGamers Member

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    Yes I'm using howl everywhere. I'm running everything at p7, mostly out of laziness but I'll give switching back and forth between 7 and 8 a shot as I don't think it'll cause problems.

    The issue with howl in CS is three things:

    OKs don't care about your pitiful yalping.
    Monsters can get like... a traffic jam... fairly easily/often in the more congested areas. Usually a leap or two helps clear that up before or after the fact, but sometimes these congested groups are positioned relative to each other and the walls in such a way that clearing any space at all is much more difficult.
    And lastly, monsters too close to you or (more likely) your merc sometimes just ignore it or re-engage you.

    Since on this character I've found oblivion knights and abyssal knights more dangerous than any of the other monsters, any of those things being an issue with Lord de Seis makes his fight more dangerous but still mostly fine, except: delays in engaging him increase the likely hood of taking a big spike of damage or being decrep'd where you'll lose a couple frames in attack speed which is mostly fine except: OKs like to occasionally just stop getting put into hit recovery and try to run away.

    Leap/Leap Attack +- teleport to re-engage and force a stagger helps solve that problem, it's just all these small delays will sometimes add up to a bad situtation depending on how many other OKs are nearby, and whether or not Lord de Seis 'runs' back into a really congested place.

    So he's usually not a problem (so long as I'm not playing stupidly), really, but over that many runs a "once in a while" effect can occur pretty frequently.
     
  16. Zylo

    Zylo IncGamers Member

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    Ahh, thank you Espr, very enlightening. Can I ask what your gear/charms are on your barb? Yeah, I've switched my thinking of CS - from: Leveling in CS, with a bonus of potential MF. To: Magic Finding in CS, with leveling being the bonus.(Change of scenery is also another tantalizing prospect.)

    I'll try and find the video, and link it soon. It's in this thread, but it's a bit older, so it's buried.
     
  17. Espr

    Espr IncGamers Member

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    Yeah, wanting to do double duty with MFing is the main reason I decided to forgo the Baal route from the outset. On the plus side it means I can save the ancients too!

    As to the video, is this the one? (ytube)

    And sure! Here's my current setup:
    MF: 236
    Life: ~2700 (after bo)
    Mana: ~300 (after bo)
    CtH: 93% vs Diablo (after cry)
    FHR: 50 (5 frame)
    FCR: 110

    Grief PB / Stormshield (HoTox2)

    Arreats
    Code:
    Rune Heart
    Jewel
    Required Level: 42
    Fingerprint: 0x86285b4a
    Item Level: 75
    Version: Expansion 1.10+
    +9 to Minimum Damage
    +32% Damage to Demons
    +50 to Attack Rating against Demons
    +7 to Strength
    Heal Stamina Plus 11% 
    
    Highlord's Wrath
    Enigma

    LoH (eventual 1.07hax will be tried here, I expect good things)
    Arachnid's Mesh
    WarTravs

    Ravenfrost
    Code:
    Entropy Knot
    Ring
    Required Level: 26
    Fingerprint: 0xd6653e32
    Item Level: 85
    Version: Expansion 1.10+
    +10% Faster Cast Rate
    +117 to Attack Rating
    +12 to Life
    Cold Resist +18%
    Lightning Resist +10%
    8% Better Chance of Getting Magic Items
    

    Charms

    Gheeds
    4x 5% FHR (to hit the 48 breakpoint; a mix of resists and fine as suffixes)
    1x +11 max SC (1.07hax)
    1 Steel GC of Vita
    3x Sharp GC of Vita/STR

    Rest are small charms of fine / resists / life and MF.

    The FHR charms are something I'm experimenting with. So far, it seems to help noticeably with some bad blind teleports and if the monsters bounce off walls (from howl) in such a way that I get swarmed while horking. I'll likely replace them when I have something better to put there than plain 7%MF charms.

    Might Merc with Insight

    Previously I used Gladiator's Bane + Tal's to great effect, but recently I tried Andy's + Fortitude. There really isn't much difference to be honest, outside of occassionally he'll help take down beefier targets a bit faster, and take a bit more damage from a couple things (most notably Diablo's wave of fire).

    I think Grief/Beast ethbugged BA's is probably as good as it gets, but I don't have a beast to try it. Plus I'd have to find those pesky cold/lightning resist 7% MF charms too. But without fanat the berserker axe option is just too slow imo.
     
  18. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    I'm gonna share some data I collected over certain period of time which I find appropriate for this thread. Warning though, my data is based on assumption that MF is irrelevant, all we want to do is to get experience as fast as possible. I've done testing with certain characters to see how well can they perform. I'm gonna share basic ideas about method of running and equipment as well as information about how good can they actually perform.


    CS hammerdin (sub level 98 leveling)

    Already wrote about him here and here. So, I've done testing with several methods of running. Video of demonstration

    Method of running: tele with character screen to CS (extended teleports), then on vast majority of maps simply ignore any bosspack before you get to the star in the middle. If you have nice bosspack spawns at entrance, kill them ofc. Idea is to focus on 2 seal packs: Visier and Infector. Best map is where you get nice bosspacks between those two seals so you can kill them nicely, even better if you get bosses spawn at seal lairs. Ignore ANY champions unless you are sub level 91 or if they are together with bosses to kill them as you go. Usually ignore fast mage boss cause he will drive you crazy and you will lose time for nothing. Stomp him, if he moves, go on and ignore him.

    Possible equipment is with Rising Sun amulet shared above. Other possibility is the gear I'm using right now:
    Shako, Enigma, fcr amulet, Spirit, Hoto, Mesh belt, fcr gloves, Hotspur, dual Bkwb rings, 8 skillers, cube, small charms

    You obviously focus on fire resist since it's most dangerous in CS. Anything else is not that important. As for merc, mine is Prayer merc with Insight, CoH and Steel Shade. I've used defiance merc and might merc before, also possibly best choice is holy freeze merc for safety. I like regen though.

    Possible Performance:
    I've done testing on all levels above 90 and below 96, but I think 94+ are most relevant to present here.
    Leveling 94-95: ~15800 xp/sec, 3 hours 37 min to level up. Comparable to 119 s Baal, and 107 s Lister running.
    Leveling 95-96: ~9400 xp/s, 6 hours 39 min to level up. Comparable to 114 s Baal, and 99 s Lister running.
    Leveling 96-97 (calculated guess): ~sub 14 hours 30 mins to level up. Similar comparison with Baal and Lister as above.
    Leveling 97-98 (calculated guess): ~sub 39 hours, comparable to sub 130 sec Baal running.

    So overall, quite safe and incredibly fast character to level up with described method.


    CS blizzard sorc (sub level 98 leveling)

    Method of running: same as for CS hammerdin described above. Addition is to ignore cold immune bosses, they are not important at all. Kill their minions who grant same xp as boss anyway, with exception of mage boss who you don't kill anyway.

    Equipment:
    There are two possibilities: max block and vita. Max block setup and gear is as in this video. Well Ber is not needed in Ark obviously, but is nice addition for sure. This setup seems very safe and I would recommend it for any sorc that is not using 1.07 Arkaine's Valor as armor.

    I'm using vita setup:
    Fathom (facet), Nightwing's (facet), Rising Sun, 1.07 Ark, Spirit, Mesh belt, Trang gloves, boots with resists, Bkwb + fcr rings, 8 skillers, small charms, cube. 3.4k life, 6+k defense...

    As for skills, simply put points to maximize Blizzard damage, 1 Warmth, 1 Static + Teleport, rest into Cold armor and naturally Cold mastery.

    I use holy freeze merc with Insight, CoH and Steel Shade. Special note: don't go might just because you want to kill cold immune bosses, who cares about them. You are here to gain xp as fast as possible, not to magicfind. As for Infinity... don't really see a reason for that, Insight is fantastic for mana purposes, and cold immune boss here and there won't really make any difference. Your cold mastery will reduce monsters cold resist to close to -200 one way or another and you will kill very very fast. If there is some other relevant point in using Infinity, I don't see it. I guess Reaper's Tool is another possibility, but also don't really see reason for that. If you go max block + cold spells + holy freeze, you would be like super safe. And not having mana issues is also great addition for Insight.

    Possible Performance:
    Leveling 94-95: ~17400 xp/s, 3 hours 18 min to level up. Comparable to 108 s Baal, and 97 s Lister running.
    Leveling 95-96: ~10500 xp/s, 5 hours 56 min to level up. Comparabe to 103 s Baal, and 89 s Lister running.
    Leveling 96-97 (calculated guess): ~sub 13 hours to level up. Similar comparison.
    Leveling 97-98 (calculated guess): ~34 hours 30 min to level up. Comparable to 113 s Baal running.

    Overall, fastest leveling character I've played so far. After her, anything else seems like snail pace leveling :p.


    CS nova nec (sub level 98 leveling)

    Main idea behind this nec is to compare him to popular option pitnec. My tests indicate this method is ~15-20% faster for leveling than leveling in Pit.

    Method of running: same as described for hammerdin with minor difference. Nec doesn't have power to kill venom lords fast, so when you see isolated venom lord pack, if there are no many minions or if there is no another bosspack around, I think it's possibly best idea to skip them. Naturally you kill Infector pack every time, he comes with tons of minions and therefore offers tons of experience.
    Simply cast lower resist and nova. You can then either play with attract curse or recast your bone armor for protection (assuming you take 1 point into it at least, it will be weak however). Idea is to corpse explosion when something dies. Always revive at least 2-3 monsters for more protection. Use random iron golem from whatever you find. Special note: insight golem is not worth it. You will find that CS is not Pit, iron golem dies too often to bother with insight. Recast on white or grey stuff on floor when he dies and voila. You can even use clay golem if you want, but I like iron golem more cause you don't need to cast it at beginning of every run :p

    Equipment:
    I didn't really seek most optimal gear, but I think this I use is quite good.

    Griffon's Eye (facet), Enigma, Rising Sun, Homunculus (facet), Web (facet), Mesh belt, Trang claws, beta Bkwb + fcr ring, Sandstorm Treks (any resist boots will do), 8 skillers, small charms, cube.

    Go max block naturally. Idea of Griffon's Eye is to get 75 fcr breakpoint easily + it offers skill anyway. However if you don't have beta Bkwb, then you can use 2 skills fcr circlet and use 2 fcr rings with whatever mods you find useful. I think Homunculus is sub optimal choice cause you don't have DR on gear except on Enigma, so when you are cursed + fanaticism pack, it can get ugly. Stormshield with facet is much better option for safety. It wouldn't affect killing speed much.

    Possible performance:
    Leveling 94-95: ~10600 xp/s, 5 hours 25 min to level up. Comparable to 177s Baal, and 159 s Lister running.
    Leveling 95-96 (calculated guess): ~6400 xp/s, 9 hours 45 min to level up. Comparable to sub 150s Lister running.
    Leveling 96-97 (calculated guess): ~ 21 hours to level up
    Leveling 97-98 (calculated guess): ~sub 57 hours to level up, comparable to sub 190 s Baal running.

    I'm not exactly 100% sure how is CS nec in comparison to best possible summoner nec Baal runner who can be quite fast. I've done testings with Pitnec and got ~8700 xp/s on level 94, but I ran with 500+ MF without a single skiller in inventory. So I'd say even Pitnec with skillers is possibly slower, but overall more profitable for leveling cause you farm much better than with CS nec. Also did some testing with AT poison nova nec to get ~8500 xp/sec on level 94. It is also possible to improve on that, but I don't believe it can get better than CS nec one way or another.


    AT Fissure Druid (sub level 98 leveling)

    Method of running: get to waypoint, buff BO (I'm not sure is battle command needed, it won't really make difference except for maybe HC players, but you can also cast it when you are killing some bosspack and have nothing else to do) then summon oak and enter AT. There you focus only on bosses and ignore champions unless there are like 4 at a bunch. Also ignore Invader packs with only 3 minions most of the time unless they come with other packs too, they take too much time and offer too little for it. Cast Fissure then you can play with Grizzly (lol) or you can tele on top of boss getting ready to firestorm him as soon as timer is up. Do not underestimate firestorm, it is killing very fast. Fissure is better on many targets naturally. Volcano is also good option for Invader boss. Naturally skip fire immune Invader boss.

    Equipment:
    What you really want is Infinity on merc, and as much -enemy fire ress as possible.

    Ravenlore (facet), Enigma, fcr amulet (19+ is ideal), Phoenix shield, Hoto, Mesh belt, Magefist, dual beta BKWB, War Travelers (you can go with any other boots, I went for a bit of MF). 8 skillers, cube, small charms.

    Overall, idea is to have nice - enemy fire ress and 99 fcr breakpoint. First of all, 99 fcr breakpoint is not needed because your spells are on timers and you will just wait most of the time. So lower fcr is very nice too. Lower breakpoint is at 68 fcr, and I even think lower than that can be good too, but I'd stick at least with 68. There are other possible equipment options, but this presented here I find nicely balanced. Phoenix giving life and mana is nice bonus too. Naturally, merc is using Infinity. Mine uses Fortitude and Vampire Gaze with it. Merc is might, because you need something to kill Invaders faster. They are quite tough even after - fire ress from equipment.

    Possible performance:
    Leveling 94-95: ~8400 xp/s, 6 hours 50 min to level up. Comparable to 223 s Baal, and 200 s Lister running.

    For comparison, I've done leveling with Pit windy, with, if I recall correctly, something like ~5k xp/s. I just know how much faster AT Fissure druid is than Pit windy, he is even comparable to Pitnec in leveling which is great in my book. But I don't think AT Fissure druid is best possible option for leveling. Windy running Lister is quite safe and quite efficient as well. He needs 3 min 20 sec Lister running to be comparable to Fissure druid according to my tests, and I do believe he can do it. I'm not sure would random player have faster Lister runner or AT runner. Fissure druid requires some positional playing, so I'd say Lister windy is possibly better option to level up the druid for most players.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2015
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  19. pharphis

    pharphis IncGamers Site Pal

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    Video of drood plz. I might consider making one for once if I can run AT with it :p
     
  20. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    I have another thing to share, namely it is about Windy leveling on Baal waves. I've made 163 fcr vita windy for leveling. Thing I noticed is how painfully long it takes to take down Lister and company compared to rest of the waves. No wonder, they have most HP of all monsters in waves and most physical resistance, so it takes some time to take them down with Tornado, even with merc using Reaper's. And it can get annoying since they knockback and stuff.

    So I've thought, what if I kill only first 4 waves for leveling, would that be faster? For windy I found answer is definitely big YES. I've tried leveling on level 92 toward 93, and killing only first 4 waves. Leveling is as fast as killing all waves and Baal in 3 minutes 15 seconds, and I can't finish killing Lister in that time. So, for windy killing first 4 Baal waves is fantastic. Unless someone has some secret strategy how to take down Lister fastish, ignoring Lister and killing only first 4 waves is considerably faster for leveling. All those waves fall like you cut with knife through butter, only Lister can take tons of time sometimes.

    Well I've compared that with my ww barb too, and killing first 4 waves is similarly effective leveling method as killing all Baal waves for him, with slight edge toward killing all waves. And dealing with Lister can actually be dangerous, while other waves are easy. I think this leveling method deserves more research. What to call them, Ventar runs or whatever.
     
    Southpaw8668 likes this.

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