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2800 pindle run dry spot?!?!?

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by dysgenics, Sep 6, 2016.

  1. dysgenics

    dysgenics IncGamers Member

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    I'm deadly serious when I ask this, is there any kind of bug you can get on your character which bugs high level sets/uniques from dropping?

    Errrm anyway, whats YOUR longest dry patch ever? How many runs and where?!?

    I did well over 2800 pindle runs and the only Elite unique I found was an Eaglehorn bow.

    I've always done pindle runs and usually find something every 50-100, maybe even have to wait 200-250 runs sometimes, to find something like like an IK armor, or perhaps a Fleshripper - something nice. But I've just gone 2800+ runs with finding NOTHING!

    Of course there were tons of rares, the highlight is posted below. But really, I'm wondering has this ever happened to you? Or have you heard of anything like this? 2800 runs!!!!!!!!!

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Kitteh

    Kitteh IncGamers Site Pal

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    1 elite unique in 2800 runs? That sounds like pretty far off odds, although I don't have a number available. I don't mean to be patronising, but are you 100% sure?
     
  3. dysgenics

    dysgenics IncGamers Member

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    Ok I guess you got me really, I totally exaggerated. But it's kind of worse, as I didn't even find a usable exceptional unique. The elites I did get were all very very bad, not only did I already own pretty much all of them but they are not any item you would use... Wolfhowl with bad stats etc... I just didn't find anything useful what so ever, I found a lot of things like 2 BK mythic swords (already had the set, and never considered these useable), the set Ward shield etc. Not even a shaftstop, or a vampire gaze, or a shako, as long as I can put some use to it, I didn't find it!! just 100% useless crap for 2800 runs ^^

    I did just poorly explain it, but I thought this was an interesting conversation topic since I have had periods of a couple of hundred runs if not more of nothing... :)

    Perhaps the game is just balancing everything out for me, since I found The Grandfather and Mang Song's Lesson from Pindle within a couple of hundred runs just before this dry spot... :D
     
  4. T72on1

    T72on1 IncGamers Member

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    Definitely rng. Which you deserve, after getting The Grandfather and Mang Song's ... ;).

    But seriously, there is a big difference between no elites at all, and no ones that you can use. Like Kitteh said, 2800 runs without an elite would be very far off. But if you aren't counting Wolfhowl, BK sword (which not only is elite, but also a TC87 - it's still useless, but dropwise (statistically) that makes a difference ... ).

    I once read in a mf guide that you can expect an elite item once every 50 runs, and a unique TC87 once every 1000 runs. For the latest MFO I did a few thousand Pindle runs, which seemed to confirm those numbers (although mine were a bit lower). So if you didn't get any unique TC87, yes you are quite lucky. But only you know what you got during those runs ...
     
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  5. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    What you described in first post is indeed quite unlikely event. However, what you described in second post, maybe you will be surprised but that is nothing unusual for diablo. 2800 Pindle runs is really not amount in which you can expect some miracle. I did 13200 runs with barb during MFO, and yours 2800 runs with nec is comparable to 1800 runs with barb (item find powar!)... and nope, nothing unusual to not find something great in such amount of running.

    It also depends on amount of MF (my barb had like 700) etc.

    If you want to get "something" with non-barb runner, expect to dig into 5k runs at least to have real chance at finding one of those useful items. With barb I estimated it takes ~400 runs to get 1 9.3+ pointer (rare items), which makes it 1 per ~620 runs with non-barb char. That is with like 700 MF. So, I'm pretty confident it might take a bit over 2k runs at average to find one of those "useful" items, depending on what are you after. But yeah, chances are not better than that.
     
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  6. dysgenics

    dysgenics IncGamers Member

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    Thanks for the replys. Great info, been running pindle for years but never in this volume, you've motivated me to get back on them runs :D
     
  7. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    Yeah, but try the barb (I assume you run with necro as I saw that screenshot). Barbs (hopefully you have Enigma) are 50% more efficient than other characters because of item find. Without Enigma aim to have teleport charges to reduce your running to as low as possible to be close to sorc.
     
  8. dysgenics

    dysgenics IncGamers Member

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    I use a blizz sorc, runs are about 25-30 sec. Do you have a link for your barb buid? I'd like to see the items etc you get for that much mf :) how fast are the runs?? I play HC so I like playing really safe

    I have Jah and Ber! Not made the enigma yet, still doing LK for another Ber and a Sur, going for the aura heavy necro summoner.
     
  9. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    I used berserker barb, but I would not suggest that for HC.
    For HC I would suggest WW barb using dual Grief (or Grief + Oath if you don't have dual Grief). If you don't have Grief, then dual Oath.

    Shako (Ptopaz)
    2 skills amulet with MF if you have one
    Enigma
    Goldwrap
    dual leech ring + fcr leech ring (for 105 breakpoint on switch) or some combo, get leech one way or another
    Chance Guards gloves
    War Travelers

    Switch: Dual Suicide Branch

    Inventory: 1 warcry skiller (you need lvl 33 item find for 55% and to skip casting BC to get it), rest 7mf charms + Gheed + cube, or let some space if you don't like using cube in inventory

    Merc: 0 sec cold duration Reaper's Tool (or lowest roll on cold duration), or Insight

    Method of running:
    Run at p1, get to portal, cast BO, skip BC to not waste time, get to Pindle, kill (super easy on p1), hork, s/e

    Should be piece of cake and should be sub 20 second doable running, depending on how slow is your PC.

    Skills are straightforward:
    Max weapon mastery of weapons you use for Grief, probably swords
    Max WW
    Max item find
    Rest BO
    1 Inc Speed
    1 Nat Res
    1 Berserk for stone skin Pindle (you might need cbf too, dunno (DON'T USE RAVENFROST!))

    Something like that. Really straightforward. You will have high damage output, 4k or whatever life and 55% item find.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2016
  10. Fabian

    Fabian IncGamers Member

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    dys,

    When you made a thread about doing 2800 pindle runs and only finding one elite unique, did you at some point go, like, "hm this is a pretty strange thread idea since it's obviously fabricated", or something like that?
     
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  11. dysgenics

    dysgenics IncGamers Member

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    A tad rude if you ask me. With all due respect, that wolfhowl was the only elite unique I found, I did find thunderstroke right before the counter for the 2800 runs started. and I was not aware that a few of the set items I found were TC87.

    I really did not exaggerate much at all. One is not much more than zero as far as finding elite uniques is concerned, and I had to check that it was an elite too before I made that second post.

    Regards :)

    Edit: I did immediately think "this is a terribly constructed thread for the conversation I wanted to start" immediately after posting it, if that's anything like what you meant :)

    Thanks for the suggestions, not running rwm so both those swords are out the question for me, I'd also immediately die if I wasn't using stormshield :D I swear barbs are squishy as anything!! I didn't know horking made that much of a difference when MFing, so a new barb is now really on the cards for my next char.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2016
  12. thefranklin

    thefranklin IncGamers Member

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    Ha, Fabian with some shade.

    There have been 1000s of post like that, 100s of pindle results threads. A source for knowledge: http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Guide:Magic_Find_Guide_v1.11,_by_Hrus

    It does seems like a tough question from someone who has over 91% of the grail. Yes, anything you say can and will be used against you :). Grypph gave great answers, gotta love him. I see you had to throw in the word "usable" there. After awhile, there isn't much usable you are going to find in a short time span.
     
  13. maareek

    maareek IncGamers Member

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    Just so we're clear, this is a list of the elite uniques Pindleskin is capable of dropping (it's possible there's a set piece or two in there depending on my memory/copy+paste skills; I just copied the list from the Magic Find Olympics Pindle category scoresheet) and yes, if you went 2800 runs while only getting two actual instances of any of these then that's highly unusual but if you're just counting "useful" items then you're only setting yourself up for disappointment and despair while playing this game. I would not be surprised if I went out and did 28,000 Pindle runs without finding a set or unique item that was useful to me.

    Code:
    Alma Negra   9.1
    Andariel's Visage   4.3
    Arioc's Needle   2.3
    Arkaine's Valor   7.8
    Astreon's Iron Ward   27.8
    Baranar's Star   3.2
    Blackoak Shield   5.9
    Blood Raven's Charge   6.7
    Bloodmoon   3.3
    Boneflame   10.4
    Bonehew   2.3
    Boneshade   7.9
    Cerebus' Bite   11
    Cranebeak   4.3
    Crown of Ages   10.7
    Darkforce Spawn   19.3
    Death Cleaver   9.3
    Death's Fathom   16.8
    Death's Web   27.9
    Demon Limb   2.8
    Demonhorn's Edge   7.9
    Demon's Arch   3.3
    Djinn Slayer   3.2
    Doombringer   5.7
    Dracul's Grasp   5.9
    Dragonscale   14.6
    Eaglehorn   5.7
    Earth Shifter   9.3
    Eschuta's Temper   4.6
    Ethereal Edge   2.5
    Executioner's Justice   9.3
    Firelizard's Talons   5.2
    Flamebellow   3.3
    Fleshripper   4.6
    Frostwind   4.6
    Gargoyle's Bite   9.3
    Ghostflame   9.3
    Giant Skull   8.1
    Gimmershred   2.8
    Griffon's Eye   10.7
    Gut Siphon   4.6
    Halaberd's Reign   10.4
    Harlequin Crest   4.1
    Head Hunter's Glory   7.8
    Heaven's Light   9.8
    Hellrack   2.6
    Hellslayer   2.6
    Horizon's Tornado   5.7
    Jade Talon   3
    Lacerator   4.3
    Leviathan   5.7
    Lightsabre   2.6
    Mang Song's Lesson   27.8
    Marrowwalk   5
    Medusa's Gaze   5.7
    Messerschmidt's Reaver   4.6
    Nightwing's Veil   5.7
    Nord's Tenderizer   3.5
    Nosferatu's Coil   6.6
    Ormus' Robes   3.9
    Ravenlore   14.6
    Razor's Edge   3.6
    Rune Master   3.2
    Sandstorm Trek   3.9
    Schaefer's Hammer   11.6
    Shadow Dancer   10.7
    Shadow Killer   2.4
    Soul Drainer   6.6
    Spike Thorn   6.6
    Spirit Keeper   14.2
    Spirit Ward   8.1
    Steel Carapace   8.1
    Steel Pillar   9.3
    Steel Shade   6.6
    Steelrend   10.7
    Stone Crusher   2.9
    Stoneraven   6
    Stormlash   17
    Stormshield   5
    Stormspire   9.3
    Templar's Might   10.7
    The Cranium Basher   9.3
    The Gladiator's Bane   4.9
    The Grandfather   9.3
    The Reaper's Toll   3.3
    The Redeemer   9.8
    Thunderstroke   4.7
    Tomb Reaver   4.3
    Veil of Steel   5.7
    Verdungo's Hearty Cord   4.3
    Viperfork   2.6
    Warshrike   5.7
    Widowmaker   4.3
    Windforce   9.3
    Windhammer   2.5
    Wizardspike   2.3
    Wolfhowl   7.3
    Wraith Flight   4.3
    
    For some added context: in this year's MFO I ran Pindle and had ~140 elite set and unique items after ~6250 runs (granted this was with a barb, so there's the additional >50% drop rate from Find Item) which if some very incredibly rough math is to be trusted (it isn't; I just very roughly estimated the proportion of elite sets vs uniques given total numbers of each and tried to factor in sets being easier to roll than uniques ... which is to say I'm guessing ~65% of elite S/U finds would be unique) works out to about 1 elite unique every 70 runs, which would mean every ~100-110 for a non-barb. That's not definitive, by any stretch, but it presents some ballpark to express how incredible finding only two in 2800 runs would be.

    If you want some other points for comparison, you can check things like MFO results threads or Pindlethon results, where sometimes people do document how many qualifiers they find in their runs. A good place to start looking for those threads would be the Tournament Listings thread.
     
  14. dysgenics

    dysgenics IncGamers Member

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    Thanks for more feedback, really is awesome. In the original thread post, up there in that fabrication free zone, I mentioned how often I usually find stuff and it more or less exactly coincides with your estimates.

    Honestly I thought my character had been placed under an ancient voodoo curse. It had been so long since I'd dedicated so much time to doing MF runs and it didn't go so well, but knowing that 10k runs++++ is the real goal, knowing that is half the battle.

    Just gotten over my fears and started doing some more runs, I got this on run 29!!

    I know, nothing special, but it's an elite unique, and definitely not another part of natalyas set.

    The curse may have been lifted!
     
  15. d2fan

    d2fan IncGamers Member

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    well pindle sucks anyways, he cant drop tyraelzz (lol^^), and bluewraith or any 87 ilvl unique, might as well run mephisto for standard stuff, then kill pits

    why not play for fun in archonpits or your favourite area? (i for myself like the flayertemples, because they look cool)
     
  16. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    Not sure why you don't use rwm, but anyway. Without rwm your best bet is Beast BA in combo with some primary axe... Death Cleaver or something. Bad thing is you will have to repair...

    Are barbs squishy or not depends on the build. Only, and literally only squishy barb build is berserker, and that is only if you deliberately go for like 2.2k life and put rest into Strength to do more damage. If you go for over 4k life with combination of full vita + few more points into BO, even zerker becomes a mountain for experienced players. Pit singers are almost impossible to kill (p1). WW barbs have nasty habit of leeching like crazy as they whirl, but you have to learn to whirl continuously... Overall, if you wanna make mountain out of barb, you can. Even without stormshield.

    Meh, you can't even try pit singer cuz no Insight and he uses mana like a maniac. Yeah man, barbs are quite limited in non-rwm world, there is no way around that. But you could make WW barb with Beast/Botd/whatever and be decent.

    Also, you can try AT sorc instead. She should be able to beat Pindle sorc easily, it just takes practice. However, I don't really know how safe they are to play in HC. I could name a player or two who tend to kill their AT sorcs. Meh.

    HC + no rwm... you have it really tough, sir.
     
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  17. Siddharta

    Siddharta IncGamers Member

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  18. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    Yeah, such threads are always interesting and thank you for sharing it.

    From experience I can tell that, when comparing two different areas or even two different builds, easiest thing is to compare best possible performance from one with best possible performance of second (today we know better about that than players in 2011.), but hardest part is to compare it from perspective of average players. I never knew how to do that, and it does make a difference between some builds/areas in that sense.

    Today, for example, it is pretty known about best performances of sorc on Pindle and sorc in AT. Normally only p1 is compared. Best AT players can run ~6 bosspacks average in ~36 seconds on a MFO type of effort (50 hours 10 days cca). Best Pindle sorc, I'm not 100% sure though, could get to 17 seconds and even below. Maybe. I should try to check how that works. Comparing those best possible performances in seconds per bosspack (Pindle is worth roughly 2 bosspacks of items), for AT sorc we get ~6, and for Pindle we get ~8.5. Ergo, best AT sorc is expected to perform ~40% better than best Pindle sorc. However, average player does NOT run 6 bosses in 36, but rather 45-50 seconds, and the same player, I assume, can hit at least 20 seconds on Pindle if he tries. Such comparison would lead us to ~7.9 AT and 10 for Pindle, or AT still wins by ~25%. But those are just estimations, maybe average player on Pindle can get sub 20 seconds (I would assume so) and maybe could stay at 45 for AT. Don't know. Either way, AT wins by at least 25%, or should win by that margin, and up to 40% for top players.

    Special note before someone gets glued on my "6 bosspack average" AT map: I know those are rare. Important this is I speak of 36 seconds of running for 6 bosspacks. On average AT map with 5.5 bosspacks (really, found enough of those to claim any player could expect at least this kind of average number) would be run in ~33 seconds for same efficiency as 6 bosspack map. I would say best players could comfortably do it faster on a long term effort, but I have no proof and I assumed really really comfortable average (my best AT efforts when I try are in ~33 seconds, but for ~6 bosspacks, not 5.5, and there are better AT sorcs than me).
     
  19. Siddharta

    Siddharta IncGamers Member

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    @Gripphon, you are spot on. Another thing to mention is that the bosses in AT can drop all items, which Pindle cannot.

    Live Well

    Siddharta
     
  20. dysgenics

    dysgenics IncGamers Member

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    This is really interesting, I guessed as much but I simply do pindle because it feels so relaxed, sometimes my run is 20 seconds and sometimes my run is a minute with some faffing around. I do find AT very easy nowadays so I'll start running it more.

    In the middle of the 2800 dry runs, I did a single AT at some point and got shaefers hammer, but that wasn't pindle ;)

    Ok, so luck has completely turned around... This morning I've found Lo, 6%/190% arreats face & templars might. All first time finds for me on this single player "account"! I can finally replace the arreats I traded from this forum all those years ago. Thank god I decided to trade one back then because I would have been waiting a rather long time!

    I believe i got it off crawlingdeadman, so if you're reading, thanks for the arreats ;)

    The reason I don't run RWM, it just feels so easy, I love mowing down monsters as fast as possible but I also like working a lot more for the privilege :D It also makes hunting for rare weapons much more fun because they're actually useful, as well choosing items for each char because insight, spirit, infinity and grief doesn't exist I find quite satisfying.

    That said, I have the abillity to host tcp games and I hope people would be OK with playing with me being vanilla and all, as I don't care about playing with others who use rwm. I've always wanted to host regular baals here, just havent been part of the community for so damn long ^^

    Thanks for the link @Siddharta . definitely useful, and cool username, welcome to the forum :)

    EDIT: I forgot a question/something that was talked about... Yes pindle is prob immune to cold more than anything else but if you get cursed minions with whatever other buffs they can get, it's possible for even one of the minions to 1 shot my sorc with 1200 life and 45% DR still, so I choose cold sorc to freeze everything and allow the merc to dispatch CI pindles in an extra second or 2.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2016

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