2020 Spring RFL Sign-Up and Running Thread: 1st Round
- Thread starter PhineasB
- Start date
Babyhell
Diabloii.Net Member
You may well stay out of his fort, when i ran with novamancer a bit least year, i kept far from it. In fact, i do so also with Furyzon, just in case the merc does the kill...
zemaj
Diabloii.Net Member
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Think I might try something different this year... anyone have any thoughts on how Firewall should work for cows?
Please state IF you are running 1.07.
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Ghonn
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Think I might try something different this year... anyone have any thoughts on how Firewall should work for cows?
Gripphon
Diabloii.Net Member
Do 20 quick runs on collecting legs and do average xp gained on those. After that run the normal way just counting the runs done and deduct the calculated xp from every run you did. You could run for hours this way and just calculate total xp gained in amount of runs you did and then estimate minions and so on.
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I don't know will I use trapper or just go with necro. He is just too convenient for this. And I don't use necro anywhere else. Same as trapper. Oh well.
Luhkoh
Diabloii.Net Member
@maxicek both of the following with max fireblast, doing that fb+ds style of play nanomist started doing a while back. Im planning to do more chill runs on what I would consider a "normal/comfortable" setup (hoto, phoenix, shako etc with no weapon swapping). But ffs's praise has convinced me I should at least try out the beast variant. Mine will look like beast, phoenix, 2/20 traps circlet, with teleporting on spirit/cta swap. Might merc with fort andys and infinity ofc. Is this just the year of the cow trapper? Get on board gripphon!
@Arctodus just don't kill any cows when the fort is on screen. Especially with sorceress where you control your dmg a lot better than a CE necro or DS trapsin, you should be fine. But take a first run through the map to make sure you know where the fort is (recommend setting it on p8 for this just in case merc somehow gets a poke or two in). I have a video of some slow and very undergeared runs I did for last years rfl like this (was using occy, whistans, tarnhelm etc).
Also thought a bit more about it, and, assuming you have enigma, fortitude, cta, and an eth elite insight (or eth elite obedience, merc gear and cta important for necro), I'm guessing blizz sorc and necro are the top contenders for non-infinity runners. p3 vs p5 would have to just test runtimes. Then I know infinity-less trapsin works well at least on p3 since thats what @sir_cyclops ran last year and it worked fine for him. Might also be a top contender, not sure. And then I'm sure hdin and mayyyybe fissure druid would work too.
@zemaj
. But if you somehow manage to make it work, it will be fun to see for sure.
@Gripphon @ffs ok great thanks for the advice. Good idea on the raka runs. But I don't think there's any chance of me getting 94 beforehand. Just got my barb to 95 and am doing my first ever runs with non-budget pitzerker these few days before round 1.
Also forgot to say thanks for taking the initiative and getting this signup thread up! @PhineasB
@Arctodus just don't kill any cows when the fort is on screen. Especially with sorceress where you control your dmg a lot better than a CE necro or DS trapsin, you should be fine. But take a first run through the map to make sure you know where the fort is (recommend setting it on p8 for this just in case merc somehow gets a poke or two in). I have a video of some slow and very undergeared runs I did for last years rfl like this (was using occy, whistans, tarnhelm etc).
Also thought a bit more about it, and, assuming you have enigma, fortitude, cta, and an eth elite insight (or eth elite obedience, merc gear and cta important for necro), I'm guessing blizz sorc and necro are the top contenders for non-infinity runners. p3 vs p5 would have to just test runtimes. Then I know infinity-less trapsin works well at least on p3 since thats what @sir_cyclops ran last year and it worked fine for him. Might also be a top contender, not sure. And then I'm sure hdin and mayyyybe fissure druid would work too.
@zemaj
Poorly
. But if you somehow manage to make it work, it will be fun to see for sure.@Gripphon @ffs ok great thanks for the advice. Good idea on the raka runs. But I don't think there's any chance of me getting 94 beforehand. Just got my barb to 95 and am doing my first ever runs with non-budget pitzerker these few days before round 1
.Also forgot to say thanks for taking the initiative and getting this signup thread up! @PhineasB
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@maxicek I will be using this:
Inventory: 6 skillers + ID tom, no SCs. Just like in Trav IMO it actually makes sense to not use SCs unless needed.
Build: max DS, LS, FB + rest into FB synergies, otherwise just BoS.
Playstyle is simple. Lay down DS (depends on group size but generally 4 seems best amount), don't teleport after herding so that Merc is attacking cows without interruption, just throw FBs to Merc's location, profit.
Here's a couple of runs with that approach:
With the Beast setup I had my best cow runs yet. Last couple of days I made a spreadsheet to theorycraft different setups, apart from the above including setups with stuff like Hoto, 6-facet weapon, 4-facet Monarch.... But the Beast variant is stronger according to both numbers and in-game running. So far I swapped to 102 FCR switch for teleport which resulted in faster running than just using 65 FCR on Beast switch, but that also works well and makes for more relaxed gameplay. I can share the spreadsheet at a later point if people are interested in Cow Trapper stuff.
- 2/20/adds or 3/20 traps circlet +fire facet
- Enigma
- Trap/main switch: Beast + Phoenix (65 FCR BP)
- Tele/cast switch: CtA + Spirit (102 FCR BP)
- 2/FCR/str/adds amulet
- Arach
- Magefist
- Raven
- SoJ
- eth Treks
Inventory: 6 skillers + ID tom, no SCs. Just like in Trav IMO it actually makes sense to not use SCs unless needed.
Build: max DS, LS, FB + rest into FB synergies, otherwise just BoS.
Playstyle is simple. Lay down DS (depends on group size but generally 4 seems best amount), don't teleport after herding so that Merc is attacking cows without interruption, just throw FBs to Merc's location, profit.
Here's a couple of runs with that approach:
With the Beast setup I had my best cow runs yet. Last couple of days I made a spreadsheet to theorycraft different setups, apart from the above including setups with stuff like Hoto, 6-facet weapon, 4-facet Monarch.... But the Beast variant is stronger according to both numbers and in-game running. So far I swapped to 102 FCR switch for teleport which resulted in faster running than just using 65 FCR on Beast switch, but that also works well and makes for more relaxed gameplay. I can share the spreadsheet at a later point if people are interested in Cow Trapper stuff.
NanoMist
Diabloii.Net Member
I ran Trapper and Necro last year; I'll probably rotate in Zon and/or Sorc this time to keep it fresh.
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Ghonn
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Luhkoh
Diabloii.Net Member
Sounds very interesting. Did some test runs just to try out the character. Beast definitely feels faster, but I like not having to weapon swap. I see I said above something about shako on the hoto variant. That ofc doesn't work to maintain 102fcr with phoenix, so my 2/20 traps circlet is used either way. Could use cham shako and 2 fcr rings instead i suppose. Might try that actually since BO running out quickly and low mana seemed a tad annoying, but would be a trap skill less. We'll see!
@ffs ofc share dat sheet
@ffs ofc share dat sheet
Gripphon
Diabloii.Net Member
Tried trapper. Solid character, but the problem is nec is just too good for this. Easier to play and kills more cows and faster at the same time. It is also more satisfying to blow cows myself than see traps do it. So, I kinda won't join the trapper bandwagon for this.
Stop trolling @Gripphon, cow running tier list is clearly Trapper > Java > Wolfbarb > passive naked Pally > Necro.
@Luhkoh Here's the sheet if you want to play around with it. It combines @Owlie's Merc dmg calc with Trapper calculations, and then checks what is the fastest way to get the first cow kill to start CEs. It's not super user friendly, just made it for my own use considering the niche question I tried to answer anyway I tried to clean up a bit and include some comments to make it easier for you if you want to double check or correct mistakes. Some additional info:
In other news, I leveled what used to be my runner-to-be Trapper to 94!
In further news, she killed the cow king while rolling maps. Alas, no XP method to track efficiency for me either. Seems I'll just user another Sin and drop method this time around...
@Luhkoh Here's the sheet if you want to play around with it. It combines @Owlie's Merc dmg calc with Trapper calculations, and then checks what is the fastest way to get the first cow kill to start CEs. It's not super user friendly, just made it for my own use considering the niche question I tried to answer
anyway I tried to clean up a bit and include some comments to make it easier for you if you want to double check or correct mistakes. Some additional info:The spreadsheet only aims goal to calculate fastest time to get the first cow kill after herding a group. There are lots of further intangible factors, some are mentioned in the sheet as a comment but there are more of course.
In particular when comparing Beast v non-Beast setups, by far the most important factor is when does the Merc start to attack. You will notice that changing the relevant input field (L11 in first tab) drastically changes things, and playstyle plays some role here. Beast setup benefits a lot from an aggressive playstyle and teleporting close to cows: I took a good look at my runs personally, and concluded that the Merc most of the time attacks simultaneously with me starting to lay down DS traps, and otherwise generally rather before that point in time than after it. I usually take a quick step away from cows after landing, in order to gain a little distance and to make cows converge on the Merc instead of me. If Merc attacks immediately, he may have been attacking for more than a second before I start to lay down DS traps.
For me personally I concluded anything between -1 and +1 seconds is a realistic scenario, with ~0 or slightly below being the most common instances. If you're going with a safer playstyle, teleporting further away from cows so that Merc attacks a little later, other numbers may be more realistic.
The break even point seems to be around 0 seconds, where 6-facet weapon and Beast are similarly strong. At -1 seconds, Beast blows everything out of the water by a long shot (50% to something like 150% better). At +1 seconds, Beast is still only ~10-15% slower than the ideal other setup for that scenario. Enough for me to conclude that Beast is ideal overall.
But it's important to remember that this is only looking at the small window of time after laying down DS traps to the first kill. By no means do the numbers change overall run times in a similar amount as the results it spits out for this time window.
Some other notes on the spreadsheet:
In particular when comparing Beast v non-Beast setups, by far the most important factor is when does the Merc start to attack. You will notice that changing the relevant input field (L11 in first tab) drastically changes things, and playstyle plays some role here. Beast setup benefits a lot from an aggressive playstyle and teleporting close to cows: I took a good look at my runs personally, and concluded that the Merc most of the time attacks simultaneously with me starting to lay down DS traps, and otherwise generally rather before that point in time than after it. I usually take a quick step away from cows after landing, in order to gain a little distance and to make cows converge on the Merc instead of me. If Merc attacks immediately, he may have been attacking for more than a second before I start to lay down DS traps.
For me personally I concluded anything between -1 and +1 seconds is a realistic scenario, with ~0 or slightly below being the most common instances. If you're going with a safer playstyle, teleporting further away from cows so that Merc attacks a little later, other numbers may be more realistic.
The break even point seems to be around 0 seconds, where 6-facet weapon and Beast are similarly strong. At -1 seconds, Beast blows everything out of the water by a long shot (50% to something like 150% better). At +1 seconds, Beast is still only ~10-15% slower than the ideal other setup for that scenario. Enough for me to conclude that Beast is ideal overall.
But it's important to remember that this is only looking at the small window of time after laying down DS traps to the first kill. By no means do the numbers change overall run times in a similar amount as the results it spits out for this time window.
Some other notes on the spreadsheet:
- Apart from gear stats, the first tab ("Main Build", in my case with Beast setup) is the only one that needs input regarding Sin setup and build. It includes a comparison to the other setups which automatically adjust the key paramaters to the first sheet.
- The Merc dmg tab also takes key parameters from the first tab, such as cow HP, player settings, whether or not Beast is used, etc.... Other than that, just adjust this for Merc gear you want to use.
- By default, the sheet assumes Thresher Infinity, but note that for some Merc setups GPA is better base for Infinity when going without Beast (e.g. with Cham'ed Andy + Fortitude).
- The sheet includes a "next min dmg breakpoint" section due to FB being a close range skill. However, IMO it makes more sense to just look at average numbers overall for two main reasons: (1) Merc dmg has a huge range irrespective of weapon base, and he plays a big role for these calcs, and (2) when taking Merc avg dmg, with FB range being so close, it barely changes the numbers whether I use min dmg or avg damage for FB.
In other news, I leveled what used to be my runner-to-be Trapper to 94!
In further news, she killed the cow king while rolling maps.
Alas, no XP method to track efficiency for me either. Seems I'll just user another Sin and drop method this time around...
Luhkoh
Diabloii.Net Member
Lol what a rollercoaster. Welcome to the the warm and fuzzy rune counting crew. I guess I should start using more colors in my excel sheets. Yours always look so much better than mine . Fundamental question though. How can first cow kill be the only info? You need more than one corpse for the chain to start right? I don't think my CE's chain immediately with necro despite amp. But been a bit since I've ran him and don't think I had infinity last time I did. I would think a good assassin metric would be something like fastest time to second or third corpse. I'll have to keep an eye out during runs.
. Fundamental question though. How can first cow kill be the only info? You need more than one corpse for the chain to start right? I don't think my CE's chain immediately with necro despite amp. But been a bit since I've ran him and don't think I had infinity last time I did. I would think a good assassin metric would be something like fastest time to second or third corpse. I'll have to keep an eye out during runs.That is another question, shouldn't be hard to expand the spreadsheet to that effect – but I wasn't particularly interested in it because I've only seen it very rarely that CEs do not chain immediately with Trapper. FB deals considerably more AoE damage than Necro's PN does even with lower FB dmg setups, so that seems to solve chaining issues that Necro can have when undergeared (not really a problem for Necro with good gear).
Babyhell
Diabloii.Net Member
My zon setup for the tournament - if ZerkAndDestroy doesn't find a unique non eth diadem... he found one non eth, but green today, so who knows!
Shako socketed with IAS jewel
Gloves with 20ias, 3ml and res
--> 32IAS breakpoint checked
200/8LL Titan's, Spirit 35fcr, Enigma, War travs and Razortail. On switch, Cta/Spirit
21 Mara's, a 30mf nagel, and a 20/231 ravenfrost.
For inventory, damage scs, 40 Gheed's, 15 allres gc, and 3 java skillers (plain, 21 GF, 22life).
No java gloves, no Griffon, but Fury. Didn't want to run everything with the Blizz
My goal: get HRs obviously, and also get the cow king set, why not!
Good luck, it starts soon for some of you (tonight? Tomorrow at midnight here)!
Shako socketed with IAS jewel
Gloves with 20ias, 3ml and res
--> 32IAS breakpoint checked
200/8LL Titan's, Spirit 35fcr, Enigma, War travs and Razortail. On switch, Cta/Spirit
21 Mara's, a 30mf nagel, and a 20/231 ravenfrost.
For inventory, damage scs, 40 Gheed's, 15 allres gc, and 3 java skillers (plain, 21 GF, 22life).
No java gloves, no Griffon, but Fury. Didn't want to run everything with the Blizz
My goal: get HRs obviously, and also get the cow king set, why not!
Good luck, it starts soon for some of you (tonight? Tomorrow at midnight here)!
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Hutton
Diabloii.Net Member
Maybe drop WT for either Silkweave or some 40 FRW boots?My zon setup for the tournament - if ZerkAndDestroy doesn't find a unique non eth diadem... he found one non eth, but green today, so who knows!
Shako socketed with IAS jewel
Gloves with 20ias, 3ml and res
--> 32IAS breakpoint checked
200/8LL Titan's, Spirit 35fcr, Enigma, War travs and Razortail. On switch, Cta/Spirit
21 Mara's, a 30mf nagel, and a 20/231 ravenfrost.
For inventory, damage scs, 40 Gheed's, 15 allres gc, and 3 java skillers (plain, 21 GF, 22life).
No java gloves, no Griffon, but Fury. Didn't want to run everything with the Blizz
My goal: get HRs obviously, and also get the cow king set, why not!
Good luck, it starts soon for some of you (tonight? Tomorrow at midnight here)!
Luhkoh
Diabloii.Net Member
I did a handful of runs (meaning 5 each) this evening with hoto trapsin, beast trapsin, Necro, java, and fire sorc. Surprisingly I was getting incredibly similar runtimes with every single one of them. All between 3:15 and 3:30 on p5.
I wasn’t seeing a time difference for beast and hoto. I’m sure I just too slow to leverage its advantage, or my 5 runs each just didn’t show the difference. But definitely supports my desire to use hoto for more chill runs.
Also I didn’t expect it, but I really find trapsin the easiest to play. Zon I was dying all the time from getting stunlocked. Sorc worked great. Much more competitive than I thought, buts it’s just a lot of work spamming those fireballs and meteors incessantly. Necro I was struggling with keeping iron golem alive but did eventually get that stable. But even then, on assassin, redemption on phoenix makes for much more comfortable running, and after the first corpse or two, you just sit there with the space bar pressed watching the loot fly out. Plus if you die yourself you don’t have to deal with the iron golem. I wanted to run the character solely for the fact that she’s good at the runs and I use all the other contenders for another type of run already, but I’m really pleased to find I prefer her regardless.
I also suspect I would really enjoy the relaxed playstyle of a nova sorc, but didn’t feel it was even worth testing without griffs.
And I did not drop any impressive runes, so rfl luck should still be intact. I did however drop a 28life pcomb . That’s a 32, 30, and 28 lifer on my hdin now.
I could roll for a better map if I want also since the assassin has no preexisting run map. What do you guys look for in a good cow map? Anything besides Stony wp near raka and cow portal close to fort?
I wasn’t seeing a time difference for beast and hoto. I’m sure I just too slow to leverage its advantage, or my 5 runs each just didn’t show the difference. But definitely supports my desire to use hoto for more chill runs.
Also I didn’t expect it, but I really find trapsin the easiest to play. Zon I was dying all the time from getting stunlocked. Sorc worked great. Much more competitive than I thought, buts it’s just a lot of work spamming those fireballs and meteors incessantly. Necro I was struggling with keeping iron golem alive but did eventually get that stable. But even then, on assassin, redemption on phoenix makes for much more comfortable running, and after the first corpse or two, you just sit there with the space bar pressed watching the loot fly out. Plus if you die yourself you don’t have to deal with the iron golem. I wanted to run the character solely for the fact that she’s good at the runs and I use all the other contenders for another type of run already, but I’m really pleased to find I prefer her regardless.
I also suspect I would really enjoy the relaxed playstyle of a nova sorc, but didn’t feel it was even worth testing without griffs.
And I did not drop any impressive runes, so rfl luck should still be intact
. I did however drop a 28life pcomb . That’s a 32, 30, and 28 lifer on my hdin now.I could roll for a better map if I want also since the assassin has no preexisting run map. What do you guys look for in a good cow map? Anything besides Stony wp near raka and cow portal close to fort?
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