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2017 Winter RFL Signup and Running Thread: Grande Finale

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by Grape, Mar 10, 2017.

  1. ffs

    ffs IncGamers Member

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    Look, I'm not here to fight, really. ;) You're of course right in pointing out the limited value of those numbers, but I just wanted to showcase the potential of these runs which I find amazing. They are light years faster than anything I ran before. As for an apt method of calculating efficiency, I'm truly sorry if you feel offended by somebody not accepting run times alone for that, but to me it's very clear-cut that they are of limited use.
     
  2. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    @ffs
    Well, it is true my data will be of no use to someone who runs in a way which focuses only dense packs and skips tons of cows in the process since that is not my playing style. In fact, you are right that my data will be of no use to anyone probably. It is impossible to compare builds without going into incredibly detail ways of estimating everything. Even if I do count cows and do comparison the way you would prefer, it would still mean literally nothing to anyone else since it is questionable does anyone else run that way as I would during tests. Even if I determine how many cows does firesorc kill in my hands, it is still irrelevant since someone else might pay much more attention to kill miniature packs or he might go only for juice skipping 1/4 of cows.

    So, our tests are done only for ourselves. I already determined no build can touch necro on cows for my style of play, so I guess I'm just having fun with other builds comparing them for my own amusement and my own playing style. At the same time I don't know their maximum potential since it probably includes skipping 1/4 of cows and going only for dense packs as you did, and there is no way to determine how strong method that is without counting cows and... story goes on.

    In the end, I do agree with you that runtimes are irrelevant since they are only reflection of playing style and are not necessarily connected to efficiency, especially when compared in between players since everyone plays his own style. Also, I can't feel offended for anything around here. This forum is here to have fun on and I use it for that. Someone not accepting my methods or conclusions can possibly lead to interesting discussion, but not some sort of fight or anything like that. I don't have time for "fights", but discussion is definitely welcome. Diablo is just a game in the end, and we are just players who enjoy wasting their time on that. ;)
     
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  3. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    @ffs
    In all the responding forgot to say that is sweet javazon demonstration you pulled off, you definitely play her better than I do. I kinda waste too much time trying to kill plenty of cows, but this method of yours is definitely better and more fruitful for drops I'd say. I hope you will continue to explore what is she capable of.
     
  4. NanoMist

    NanoMist IncGamers Member

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    @ffs - If you can provide exact number of unique hell bovine (+ minions) and champions killed, I can give the correct number of cows killed in the level. Reason is that those monsters provide higher base experience. Also, unique monsters and champions are also at a high monster level, and there is another experience penalty to be calculated using the difference in your character level and monster level. Once this level difference is 10 or higher, the experience penalty remains at 5%. Unique Hell Bovine is mlvl 84, which is why Gripphon recommends using a level 94 (84+10) or higher character. It makes the calcuation easier when the same 5% penalty is applied to any type of hell bovine. However, you can most certainly use the exp method even when under level 94, it just takes an extra calculation to factor in the level difference.

    From Arreat Summit:
    Code:
    Characters Level 25-99
        For any monster above your level, you get EXP*(Player Level / Monster Level).
        For monsters between 5-10 levels below you, you receive between 100% and 5% experience.
    
        lvl difference    exp %
        6              81
        7              62
        8              43
        9              24
        10              5
        > 10            5
    
    I want to point out that these percentages were rounded off, so there will be a small margin of error when using these. I can provide the exact fractions if anyone is interested.

    I'll spare you the math unless you want to know more, but here's the exp. gain for a level 91 character in P7 cows:

    Regular (mlvl=81): 333
    Champion (mlvl=83): 8479
    Unique or minion (mlvl=84): 20427

    So a champion provides exp worth 25.5 regular cows, and uniques or minions provide exp worth 61.3 regular cows.

    Once you take this into account, you won't be overestimating the number of cows killed with the exp method. Edit: Unless you can count for certain the number of champions and unique/minions killed, I would also suggest using exp method at level 94+. Missing a single minion count at level 91 is about a 60 cow difference in the count.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
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  5. Noodle

    Noodle Moderator

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    I don't want to brag, but I just clicked on Normal instead of Hell and lost my map. Fantastic. It was also a really good Meph seed.
     
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  6. pharphis

    pharphis IncGamers Site Pal

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    Noodle you've been around for like 6 decades you should know how to stop that ;)
     
  7. DiabloTwoinDC

    DiabloTwoinDC IncGamers Member

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  8. Noodle

    Noodle Moderator

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    I certainly should! I've had this map on this character for . . . eight years at least? Total brain fart.
     
  9. ffs

    ffs IncGamers Member

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    Thanks, I'm flattered! ;) I'll try to improve her further until I get bored with her. :)

    Thanks for the suggestions @NanoMist. As you said I think it's too much of a hassle to get a more precise calculation with a character under lvl 94. Shame, would be really interesting. If I get her there I'll get back to this maybe, but for now it's enough for me to compare it to her previous times/XP gains, which are under same XP circumstances in principle.

    Also, I have absolutely no idea how I managed to kill the Cow king with my lvl 95 javazon, playing her would have made it easier to deliver numbers that are more useful to others. :)
     
  10. Neksja

    Neksja IncGamers Member

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    Hype is kinda there, but right now I'm sitting at 25 runs completed and busy weekend ahead, most likely another busy weekend next weekend so I am not sure if I can finish 20 hours. I'll definitely get 10+ hours, but it's the last 10 hours that I'll be struggling.

    Need to catch up with all the posts in this thread. Seems like some good theory crafting going on!

    Good luck everyone, may all of your drops be Rals.
     
  11. Grape

    Grape IncGamers Member

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    Yay, first (eth) grailer during the RFL:

    Code:
    Ginther's Rift
    Dimensional Blade
    One Hand Damage: 47 - 130
    Durability: 51 of 51
    Required Level: 37
    Required Strength: 75
    Required Dexterity: 50
    Fingerprint: 0xbf2f8fa1
    Item Level: 84
    Version: Expansion 1.10+
    +30% Increased Attack Speed
    150% Enhanced Damage
    Adds 50 - 120 Magic Damage
    Magic Damage Reduced by 7
    Repairs 1 Durability in 5 Seconds
    +40 Maximum Durability
    Ethereal
    
    and even perfect ED. Gotta use that for twinking some day,

    Also found 2 x Cow King's hat.

    I'm averaging 3:15 with P5 javazon after 4 hours,

    then 1h 45min of random messing around with a Trapper and a 200 FCR ES Nova :D

    ps. has the forums been really slow lately, or am I the only one?
     
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  12. T72on1

    T72on1 IncGamers Member

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    Yes, very slow indeed since yesterday or so. Not on my mobile, only on pc.
     
  13. ThomasJohnsen

    ThomasJohnsen IncGamers Member

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    It's completely normal here (in Denmark). Maybe you have some local ads where you are, that slow the forum down.
    I have occasionally had slow forums here as well - situations where any topic would take like 30-40 seconds to load.
     
  14. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    Here are tests of 10 runs on p5 to determine number of cows killed per run. For my numbers I assumed there are total of 7 bosspacks on cow level (minus king I don't touch) of which 20% are champion packs, aka at average 5.6 bosspacks and 1.4 champion packs per run. I assumed I kill roughly ~5.6*4 = 22.4 minions and 1.4*3 = 4.2 champions per run. I do tend to avoid those packs if they are isolated however, but this will have to do for estimation. 22.4 minions are worth 112 cows of experience, while champions are worth 4.2*3 = 12 cows worth of experience. So, I have to substract 112 + 12 - 22 - 4 cows of experience per run, aka 98. If this is not close estimation, then I have xp data and could recalculate using more precise estimation if one has some. But, I have no idea how to account for a fact that I tend to skip lonely bosspacks and that sometimes minions are still alive as well as boss since they are more sturdy than the rest. Also, not all characters kill them easily. For example, firesorc surely doesn't kill as many bosses as necro. But to keep things simple, lets substract 98 cows for all builds I tested.

    Nova CE necro p5 (level 95)
    Average xp per run: 40623 xp
    1 cow offers: 81 xp
    Cows killed per run: 404
    Average time: 2:29
    p5 cows per minute: 163
    p7 cows per minute: 144

    Fireball sorceress p5 (level 96)
    Average xp per run: 26994 xp
    1 cow offers: 59 xp
    Cows killed per run: 360
    Average time: 2:46
    p5 cows per minute: 130
    p7 cows per minute: 115

    Trapper p5 (level 95)
    Average xp per run: 39755 xp
    1 cow offers: 81 xp
    Cows killed per run: 393
    Average time: 2:48
    p5 cows per minute: 140
    p7 cows per minute: 124
     
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  15. Brak

    Brak IncGamers Member

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    LOL, so I've got an amazing 8-10 min run time on p1 with my Rabies Druid.

    Be afraid!

    It's not too bad as cows die in about 1 to 2 Rabies applications on and Fury is great for getting rid of stragglers, but I really wish I had some -EPD. Also merc is pretty much useless as he dies within about a minute since I can't take him with me via teleport. Vine is fine for temporary distraction. Not sure if I should try swapping him back to a more sturdy A5 merc, but they're probably too aggressive to survive as well.
     
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  16. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    Okay, I've done more tests. Tried this... lets call it rambo-style with Java.
    Rambo style - go in, kill as many enemies as you can in the least amount of time, gtfo fast. Agreed. But, this is the only way for java to even compete with other builds, so just herd cows, throw javelins, what is dead is dead, what is alive is alive, move on to next big herding job. She does kill surprisingly fine amount of cows given how many leftovers there are.

    Javazon p7 35 ias (level 95) rambo style
    Average xp per run: 47695 xp
    1 cow offers: 108 xp
    Cows killed per run: 344
    Average time: 2:42
    p5 cows per minute: 143
    p7 cows per minute: 127

    Javazon p5 35 ias (level 95) rambo style
    Average xp per run: 34952 xp
    1 cow offers: 81 xp
    Cows killed per run: 334
    Average time: 2:23
    p5 cows per minute: 139
    p7 cows per minute: 123

    Hammerdin p5 (level 96) rambo style
    Average xp per run: 25313 xp
    1 cow offers: 59 xp
    Cows killed per run: 331
    Average time: 3:23
    p5 cows per minute: 98
    p7 cows per minute: 87

    Reason why I killed less cows on p5 with java is because I played slightly differently. On p5 I afforded to fast-kill small packs of cows without herding, though it seems that is not optimal. Herding with p7 style is better, but I'm lazy to test it again... Same style is applied with hammerding because he kills SLOW, but if you gatther big herd, it is no problem. But, you will have plenty of areas skipped, especially smaller isolated packs. Even 2 packs are probably not worth the time given his slowish killing nature.

    I'm still gonna try to improve with javazon, it is not easy to be Rambo over the night. Same story with trapper since she is so close to java. But, here are test results so far. Left number is p5 cows killed per minute, right number is p7 cows killed per minute.

    1. Nova CE necro 163-144
    2. Rambo java 143-127
    3. Trapper 140-124
    4. Fireball 130-115
    5. Slowdin 98-87

    Next up: fissure dr00d, lightning sorc and 55 ias java.

    Also, look at that. Just-look-at-that

    Code:
    Tal Rasha's Guardianship
    Lacquered Plate
    Defense: 931
    Durability: 50 of 55
    Required Level: 71
    Required Strength: 84
    Fingerprint: 0x82835583
    Item Level: 81
    Version: Expansion 1.10+
    +400 Defense
    Cold Resist +40%
    Lightning Resist +40%
    Fire Resist +40%
    Magic Damage Reduced by 15
    **% Better Chance of Getting Magic Items
    Requirements -60%
    Set (2 items): +10% Faster Cast Rate
    
     
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  17. pharphis

    pharphis IncGamers Site Pal

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    the first tal's armor I ever found was from hell cows heh
     
  18. ffs

    ffs IncGamers Member

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    @Gripphon
    Rambo Java - has a nice ring to it :) great to see you're giving it a go and try some stuff with her.

    Played a bit of Necromancer a bit more seriously in between to mix it up. Run times in between around 3m15s and 3m45s on /p5. I will try some more at some point but I think I won't be able to achieve really efficient runs with him, which might be due to the fact that I don't have enough PB skillers. Because what's holding him back is lack of OP CE range. It's not too much that's missing, maybe +2 or +3 to CE, but it's clearly felt. Went with both 75% FCR and 125% FCR setup with DW, 2/20 circlet (Larzuk gave me only one socket though.. rude), 2/10 amulet and FCR/stat rings. In the end I was actually significantly faster with 75% FCR setup, as the added CE range due to +skills made more of a difference than the additional FCR. But I can see that 125% is stronger if CE range is good enough. Also played summoner with Beast, not very fast either, but fun and really relaxing. :)
     
  19. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    @ffs
    You just have to develop some technique with nec since I believe you are used to javazon playing style, while necro is slightly different in both herding and killing style. I can list most important things just in case since I have no idea how do you play.

    - merc is your main killing machine to get corpses, gear him well (eth weapon + Fortitude) and give him time to provide you with corpse faster, which means you stay put for a second or two so he can attack while supporting him with nova/revives
    - amplify curse (mentioning just in case, I know i used LR curse before which is inferior)
    - have high level amplify, it really helps when its range is big
    - hold alt to show items all the time. As soon as you see first items on the floor or know cow is dead, start CE chain immediately and don't bother with nova anymore
    - treat nova only as something that reduces cows life in range to help starting chain CE faster and to support merc slightly, while main killing comes from the combination of merc+amplify+CE. If you see dead bodies and new cows approaching, don't bother with nova, simply amplify them and snipe with CE

    EDIT
    You can try Hoto as weapon too, though I find mpk from Web really good to have.
    Or, you can also try boner variant where you support merc creating faster corpses with bonespear. It should provide corpse faster, though it lacks nice AOE damage from nova and possibly slightly slower start of CE chain, BUT it should be just as strong as nova variant.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  20. ffs

    ffs IncGamers Member

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    @Gripphon Regarding Merc, well let's say it probably didn't help either that I gave him Andy's :) habits... After realizing this amazing fail I gave him Guillaume's for now. Works much better, though I'd still really love to have those 2-3 extra skillers for better CE range. Also that got me thinking since Merc is so important maybe I should aim for a higher IAS breakpoint with Stealskull. Any other good options?
     

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