2017 Winter RFL Signup and Running Thread: Grande Finale

Gripphon

Diabloii.Net Member
Tested trapper and that chick is nearly as strong as necro. Not only she is sub 4 min runner, she is close to 3 min runner with some practice. After 10 test runs average was 2:51 on p5 which is comparable to 3m13s p7 running. That is only 15s slower than necro and she can improve some more too if I roll more comfortable map. I didn't expect her to be so OP honestly, but those DS traps are basically CE. My playing style is slightly different than what NanoMist presented. I don't really bother with LS much, only here and there and only a single trap. I usually lay 2 DS down at new herd, fireblast cows near merc to get fast corpse and then lay down more DS to melt them faster. I realized it is more important to get first corpse ready via fireblast than to lay 5 traps down first.

Now I did way more running than I hoped to do before actual event, only found Mal for it so I better run away while I still can. I guess java is next to test, I refuse to believe trapper is faster than javazon.
 

NanoMist

Diabloii.Net Member
Nice work. I tried fireblast/DS only on P7 and it *felt* slow, but never timed it. My only foray into P5 Cows were the 4 runs I recorded, and I did notice cows dropping fast enough not to warrant so many LS traps. Less item clutter too. Overall P5 felt more comfortable to run.
 

Gripphon

Diabloii.Net Member
IAS: She hits the 30 (32?)% IAS breakpoint, which I'm happy with. I personally wouldn't bother going for the 52% breakpoint, but I know others swear by it.
By planning javazon now I came to conclusion that 32 bp is the best to aim for. By going for 55 ias you either sacrifice 48 fcr breakpoint on javelin switch, or you will constantly use other switch to teleport (kinda annoying). Going for 32 ias it is possible to have 48 fcr on javelin and never bother with 68 fcr switch at cow level, only to get leg. Also I still didn't perform a single test where 55 ias won over 32 ias, with exception of PvP where it is clear difference between the two.
CBF: I'm also not sure if CBF is even worth it for cows. I don't have a second SoJ or a BKWB, so I don't have anything I'd rather have there, though It would be interesting to see if others can use that ring slot for an improvement.
I'm gonna stick with ravenfrost ring, don't wanna be crippled by random cold explosion, I don't want to know how long that thing lasts with my awesome resists on javazon.

@NanoMist
p5 for the president! After my tests I don't think I will return to p7 anymore, p5 is just too convenient on so many levels, also possibly stronger than p7 for not just necro. I didn't test trapper on p7, but by seeing she can run p5 as efficiently as 3:13 trapper on p7, I don't really care to try.
 
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ffs

Diabloii.Net Member
@Pb_pal Great, finally some javazon company! Will be interesting to know how Delirium works out for you. Regarding CtA/Wizzy switch I get the laziness ;) but pre-buffing only takes a couple of seconds which is nothing for these runs and you get used to it quickly. I've played with 68% forever before trying 99% and by now I'd honestly rather drop the CtA pre-buff than 99% FCR.

By going for 55 ias you either sacrifice 48 fcr breakpoint on javelin switch, or you will constantly use other switch to teleport (kinda annoying). Going for 32 ias it is possible to have 48 fcr on javelin and never bother with 68 fcr switch at cow level, only to get leg.
Obviously no comment on 48% FCR ;) but how is using switch for teleport even annoying? It's just about hitting a different key after all. I'm not aware of any better use of weapon switch for these runs, which is another reason I like pushing FCR there. But it's interesting you consider 63% sorc and 75% nec too slow, but are fine with 48% amazon. Show her some love! :)
 

Gripphon

Diabloii.Net Member
Obviously no comment on 48% FCR ;) but how is using switch for teleport even annoying? It's just about hitting a different key after all.
It is actually much more complex than that.
It is about using the switch very often to get 13 frame instead of 14 frame teleport while doing only like 3-4 of those in between herds, then switching back to javelin, then repeat the procedure. Fine, you profit lets say 4 frames in between herds because of 1 frame faster teleport. But, how much time do you lose by switching to teleport first, and then switching back before attacking? It delays javelin throw (you must wait till zon switches first), it delays teleporting sequence (you must switch first instead of doing immediate teleport as you would without switching)... As a net result of that I bet you actually lose time and energy without gaining anything at all.

This is why I say "annoying" switching. Because it is work done for nothing, for so little gain or no gain at all. I don't mind switching on a character like pitzerker where I instantly get from 5 to 105 fcr, but to constantly switch back and forth to gain 1 frame of teleporting... no thanks, waste of time in my book and wouldn't do it for any character out there unless I have long route of teleporting to actually profit from switching (like when going for the leg). Now if switch would be 99 fcr aka 2 frames faster teleporting, that might be something, but that also requires what you do - visiting stash and switching weapons in and out every run. But doing that for 20 hours... yeah. I'd much rather play other characters than do that :D

There are situations in cow level when you do have longer period of teleporting and upon recognizing such pattern you could use switch to gain 1 faster frame of teleporting, while for shorter distances it is better to simply go with javelin switch.

But it's interesting you consider 63% sorc and 75% nec too slow, but are fine with 48% amazon. Show her some love! :)
By now you probably figured out I like optimal characters. 63 fcr Travincal sorc and 75 fcr cownec are not it, as simple as that. They are not slow, just not optimal aka they could be better built as explained, that's all. I pursue fcr if it offers me upgrade with minimal or no downside at all. This is why I didn't pursue 200 fcr on Travincal sorc, it makes no sense and offers no upgrade at all, rather is suboptimal. Same story is with 200 fcr lightning sorc on cows or Baal, 117fcr variant offers way higher damage output and is simply a better way to go, so in that case I also won't pursue fcr mindlessly. As with amazon, she is naturally retarded and slow on teleport, there is no way around that unless someone is willing to do that switching thing as you do with Wizzy. So, in a case of Javazon I see no further upgrade than using 48 fcr on javelin switch (ditching fcr switch for explained reasons above and for no willingness to do the wizzy switch you are willing to do). I consider 48 fcr on amazon slow as a snail and is a big reason why I don't like javazon in the first place, she teleports like a grandma. But, considering what kind of char she is, I'm still fine with 48 breakpoint because it is as good as it gets (with exception of your wizzy switch trick I'm not sure how much upgrade it offers in the end).
 
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DaveW

Diabloii.Net Member
Nice vids everyone. Never thought of running a Trapper in Cows. I may take mine for a spin to get a feel. @NanoMist, what run counter are you using? I'm using Silo's but it doesn't have the interface situated on top like that. @Gripp, I may have to take my NovaMancer for a spin through the Cows as well. But as I dont have DW, I'll probably do p3 with HotO.
 

ffs

Diabloii.Net Member
@Gripphon Alright, those are valid points of course. :) Indeed using teleport switch always takes a split second. I guess that's another reason I settled for the 99% switch, to make it more worthwhile.

As far as swapping CtA/Wizzy goes, it takes 2-3 seconds, which doesn't make any difference at all for runs that last a couple of minutes, and provides you with a very nice bonus. So I think the utility is beyond debate, it's just about being too comfortable to do it ;) which I really understand. However, it's unfortunate because I think you could probably push her further than most of us here, and I'm afraid that's just not going to happen with 14 frames teleporting. :)

Maybe someone comes up with another good solution. Also if swapping is really too annoying, I think dropping CtA entirely is actually an option to keep in mind. With the added safety of 99% FCR I feel the java doesn't need the extra life. I'm just assuming the Merc does. But maybe this should be put to the test as well.
 

Brak

Diabloii.Net Member
soooo...My Blizz sorc accidentally killed the King on a practice run. I don't really know how, because I only popped into his fortress to loot his poppables. I guess he must have spawned outside. Really strange because I never saw a pile of stamina pots.

My only option left is a Druid for which I think Rabies would be the way to go, but I don't have Enigma, any facets, Bramble, or a Medussa's Gaze etc. that would make things at least tenable. Guess I'll have to see what I can do with him.
 

Pb_pal

Diabloii.Net Member
I respec'd my Windy and did some testing to see if a Fire Druid would be viable for cows. Worth to note that I've never played a fire druid before, so my skills have tons of room for improvement. Also, he's not geared out fully optimally as 1) I don't have Ravenlore, and 2) I was too lazy to do too much min/maxing on him.

Quick rundown:

Gear:
+2 druid/20FCR/other mods Circlet, Enigma, Hoto, Phoenix, +2 druid caster ammy, Magefist, Soj/random FCR ring, Arac, Aldur's boots, 5 Elemental Skillers (all I have).

He hits the 99% FCR breakpoint. Even though the spells are timered I wouldn't want to go lower than this as I use tele alot to reposition. (He's actually quite a bit over as my Windy was setup for 163% and I was too lazy to switch other stuff out, so better gear can be swapped in without much issue).

Skills:
20 Firestorm/Volcano/Fissure/Bouler/Oak
rest unassigned so far

~3.5k Fissure
4k life with Oak/BO


Merc(might):
Infinity/Fort/Delerium

Playstyle is quite straightforward; herd a big group of cows and fissure the hell out of them. Confuse from delerium keeps them running back and forth over the fissures, and you can tele around the pack to "guide" them through the hotspots. Phoenix again keeps the life and mana full, so no need to worry about pots. He doesn't kill as "completely" as say an LF zon or a CE necro, but not too many stragglers are left behind.

My runtimes with a pretty lackluster map are still hovering around 4 minutes on /p5, so somebody with better gear/playstyle/map (or just more practice) I think could easily get below 4 minutes, maybe into the 3:30 range. Like I said, he won't be a top-tier runner like the sins/necros, but still a definitely viable option and I might run him a bit during the RFL to keep things fresh.
 

Gripphon

Diabloii.Net Member
@Gripp, I may have to take my NovaMancer for a spin through the Cows as well. But as I dont have DW, I'll probably do p3 with HotO.
No need to do it on p3, Nova is only addition to this necro. Main point is merc with his damage and your amplify curse to get corpses while nova is there only to soften up remaining cows, not to kill them. So, it is pretty irrelevant do you use Web or Hoto. You can also try Beast as a weapon. Overall, no need to go p3 as long as you have either eth Infinity or eth Insight. Your merc will provide you with corpses as fast as mine does.

@ffs
You wizzy trick is actually quite clever. There are more tricks like:
1. use Spirit shield with javelin for an easy 68 breakpoint
2. use 1.07 Valk with Spirit on javelin switch and have 99 without any switch trick needed at all, but having lower damage

Who knows, maybe Griffon is not really needed for javazon like we all think, especially for p5. I might try those variants and report back what I found out. I've seen more strange things work better than anticipated than this idea I just thought of. I assume variation 1 is the variation I will like best. Total loss of damage is 13% to gain extra frame of teleporting... who knows. EDIT: Forgot I have extra ring slot for beta BKWB. Loss of damage is... only 6%. OP. I think I'm in love etc.

I could also try 99 fcr bp with Spirit and Griffon, but won't have CBF...

@Brak
Where are your other characters?

@Pb_pal
You know, just today I thought of fire druid for cows! Didn't seem great, but doable for sure. Glad you tested it.
 
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Gripphon

Diabloii.Net Member
Just checked what kind of frost nova do cold enchanted monsters have. Cows release level 42 unique frost nova with 46 seconds cold duration. OP. There is just no way to run cows with javazon without CBF. One of those explosion and it is either potion drinking or game over for that run. Not good.

EDIT
Here is variant of javazon I'd like to test tonight.

Griffon's with ias/14allres j00l
Enigma
eth upped Titan's (2 of those)
Spirit shield
2/9 amulet with 61 mana and 6% manasteal
Razortail
2/20/stats gloves
beta BKWB (2 skills 5 lifesteal)
Ravenfrost
Silkweave boots (5 mpk)

Cta + Lidless switch (to save 20 strength stats to carry Spirit with Titan's).

Idea is to use extra skills, fcr, mana and especially fhr from Spirit (going from 0 to 55fhr means going from 11 to 6 frames hit recovery). 5 mpk + 6% manasteal should be able to make my mana doable with 61% critical and eth upped Titan's, however this is the only questionable part of the gear. In case this is not doable, I'd have to go into alternative, but I really hope this will do it. Lifesteal + lpk from Enigma to make me replenish life enough to not use potions. 68 fcr breakpoint is there, 100% pierce is there... hype?

Alternative is to use Lidless wall and mpk ring to solve mana problems for whole eternity, but I don't wanna lose that juicy extra mana and fhr from Spirit. I'd rather replace beta BKWB for dualleech ring if it comes to that which I assume it won't. Or, I could use Phoenix on CtA switch and simply use it in case I need mana. Seems like more favorable option at a price of 20 stat points.

Ah yes, Monaco - City tonight. 5+ goals guaranteed. I guess I'll test later.
 
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maxicek

Moderator Single Player
My zon setup is currently:
Griffons / 15 IAS jewel
Highlord's
Enigma
Ravenfrost
10 FCR / MPK ring
3/20 gloves
2xEth Titans
35FCR Spirit
Razortail
Boots currently War Trav, may go Aldur's for the FRW
= 55IAS / 70FCR

Still not sure what to run with though.
 
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Burgomaster3

Diabloii.Net Member
Great videos and theories everyone, keep them coming! Also thanks @Gripphon for thoughts about the Necro.

I'm super busy with RL this week, so my pre-round testing will be pretty minimal. I'm probably not gonna bother with the Necro, since what I've gathered the Trapper should do just fine, and I'm actually enjoying playing with her a fair bit. Now I just need to roll a bit better map for her.

Also interesting things about p5 vs p7. I tried p5 with Light Sorc, and it was much better, since Chain Lightning was actually doing something. Still have to test out Fire Sorc and Javazon with p5. It's fun to try different chars, but it gets a bit annoying having to swap some pieces of gear from char to char.

I'll try and record a video of some char at some point, just for fun. I just need to find something resembling a "routine" first :p
 

pharphis

Diabloii.Net Site Pal
Hm... Does anyone know if trapper in 1.07 is viable? That's an interesting option for cows, if so, specifically since BoS and frw gear in general is broken on 1.07 sins...

Otherwise, I'm just sitting here leveling a necro and barb still. self MP for higher p settings in 1.07 is so annoying. And yes, despite what some people say/think, you DO need to be in the same area for increased drops. This is horrendously annoying for HC in 1.07 because it means you need to find a safe corner for your mules, and it also means you need to share lots of experience. I'm unlikely to try beyond /p1 cows again once I get my chars to 85ish for arkaine's.
 

Brak

Diabloii.Net Member
@Gripphon I dont have any other characters aside from ones that have killed the king or going through my Sept. Furtherest along there is a melee enchantress in NM A3, so no way she's wrapping up before this is finished.
 

ffs

Diabloii.Net Member
@Gripphon Glad you find the Wizzy thing cute at least :) though for me it's more like the only way I see to get the style of gameplay that I'm personally looking for.

Regarding cow running javazon gear in general, I guess what's pretty much locked in is:
- Titan's
- Enigma
- Silkweave
- Griffon's
- 3/20 gloves
- Razor

Apart from that it's flexible of course. I'm still undecided and switching around between a lot of these:
- Griffon 15ias/3mpk jewel and Griffon with RBF 23/18
- HLW and this amazing amulet I lucked recently.
- 2x RBF Moser's and Lidless + RBF. Now, if I had a 3-4 RBF shield, the rest of the gear would magically fall in place with a clear choice for each slot... but I don't have enough good facets at the moment :(
- Raven (I tested without, using thawing potions.. really too annoying)
- SoJ
- Switch: Spirit and CtA or and Wizzy ;)
 

Gripphon

Diabloii.Net Member
I have spent 1 hour to roll acceptable map for javazon because other maps were just too open. Did some tests on it. Managed to do barely sub 3 min running on p5, comparable to 3:20 on p8. That is ~5-10 seconds faster than I managed to do last time I tested her. But I also conclude javazon kills less cows than trapper or nec. CE is just too convenient to kill whole screen of cows, here I either waste big amount of time to kill everything or I have much more stragglers than I have with trapper and nec. On top of that I didn't even try to roll a decent cow map with trapper...

I could improve with javazon a bit after some playing, but I still don't really see how can she possibly match nec or a trapper. They have so easy time clearing cows on screen while with java I must do quite some technical stuff to pull that off in reasonable time. Fury is simply too unreliable and sometimes too many cows are left alive scattered around the field. Maybe I'm just not good javazon player and that's it, I must really try hard to even challenge trapper, let alone nec. I could improve them too if I really try instead of comfortable playing style. Meh overall. Didn't discover nothing new with javazon I didn't know before, I just hoped to pull off something faster than the last time. Chances are if I tried p7, I'd still be in 3:25-3:30 region just like as before. Maybe i put some more effort into it later, but for now I'm not positive that I will find upgrade in technique.

Instead I think I'll rather try lightning sorc to see what is she capable of. I wouldn't be surprised if I manage to outfarm javazon with her too, though I do see that she might have problems with stragglers just like javazon has. Really gotta appreciate that imba CE characters.

EDIT

And the best thing is, looking from theoretical side, javazon should be able to get to cows, throw 2 javelins, kills, go to next pack etc. Unlike trapper who needs some short time to get first corpse and lay traps down first. From theoretical aspect, I have no freaking idea how trapper ended up so fast nor do I understand how can't I beat her with javazon. Mysterious are diablo ways. Sometimes theory is counter-intuitive I guess.

EDIT 2

I have feedback from "javazon player" Froz. He was also surprised by the speed of trapper and to my surprise said in a cold tone that javazon can't do that. I'm still gonna try to squeeze more from her. I'll do the same with trapper after I roll a new map.
 
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Southpaw8668

Diabloii.Net Member
My computer situation is all better now, so I'm in after all. Great videos and theory crafting posts folks! Great stuff! I don't have any decisions to make, I'm in with my one and only 90+ hero, my Summoner with max CE.
----------------------------
Grape
Pb_pal
pharphis (1.07)
NanoMist
Burgomaster3 (1.13/1.07)
ILikeRocks
Noodle
Brak
paradisebunny
ffs
Lynchgrinch
Gripphon
maxicek
Diablo2inDC (1.07)
DaveW
Tokerdin
Neksja
T72on1
Southpaw8668
----------------------------
 

Grape

Diabloii.Net Member
Oh my, this is starting soon already!

I'm very glad to see so many participants for the last round as well :)

I'll start with Javazon. My warm-up has fallen short, so I'll need to start by little testing around. Great info in this thread so far. I did few P5 runs yesterday and it felt quite nice, and if I have to guess, that could be my running setting as well.
 
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