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2017 Winter RFL Signup and Running Thread: 2nd Round

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by Grape, Feb 17, 2017.

  1. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    1 difference could also be that having such high damage (14k) also means less safety in character and less comfortable running overall, and that could have ruined performance a bit. There is no way around sadly - for having such high damage you really need to sacrifice safety. From what I can tell, there is really no point to go over 120006 Blizzard damage which is maximum possible (if player also has +2 skills BKWB rings) by also having strong resistances, but neglecting MF. But, assuming all player has are 1.13 rings, then upper limit would be at 11220 damage (using +3 cold skills 10 fcr amulet, but I would argue 2/10+adds might be better for safety).

    As I would still argue that MF is not irrelevant, but it is better to at a very least use War Travelers + Gheed + perhaps few small charms to reach 100+ and saying 2/10 amulet is superior due to what it can offer, that would in my book put maximized damage at values:
    10434 for double SoJ build or
    11220 for beta BKWB build.

    This is for 105 fcr which is better to aim for than 63, but 63, even if slightly inferior, is still fine. This also assumes 4x4 inventory space because lower than that actually slows you down, especially using the cube. Cube is for players who pick much, but they don't have a chance to challenge faster players anyway. I even use 5x4 inventory because you can run even longer before needing to visit the stash, but 4x4 is fine.

    All numbers presented assume perfect Fathom and perfect Nightwing's too.
     
  2. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    Here are some possibilities for sorc gear. All sorcs want to aim for 105 fcr and safe running. Safe running include few things: map (won't cover it now), lightning resist and good fire resist/absorb. Cold is optional. Also I will suggest CoH for all sorcs, but if someone doesn't have it, then Vipermagi or 1.07 Ark work ok. Also if someone has beta BKWB, use it!

    Maximum damage: assumes perfect gear and 6 skillers
    Minimum damage: assumes worst roll gear and 5 skillers + Gheed
    No usage of BC assumed for fastest running possible (it only slows you down really)

    Hoto + damage approach
    Head: NMW + facet
    Body: CoH
    Shield: Spirit
    Weapon: Hoto
    Belt: Snowclash
    Rings: dual SoJ
    Gloves: Trang Claws
    Amulet: 2/10
    Boots: whatever

    Minimum damage: 8156 (possible 100+ MF)
    Maximum damage: 8976

    Hoto + safety approach
    Head: Shako + facet
    Body: CoH
    Shield: Spirit
    Weapon: Hoto
    Belt: Arachnid Mesh
    Rings: SoJ + Wisp (lite absorb + MF)
    Gloves: Hellmouth
    Amulet: 2/10
    Boots: whatever

    Minimum damage: 6894
    Maximum damage: 7303

    Fathom + damage approach
    Head: NMW + facet
    Body: CoH
    Shield: Spirit
    Weapon: Fathom + facet
    Belt: Arachnid Mesh
    Rings: SoJ + SoJ
    Gloves: Trang Claws
    Amulet: 2/10
    Boots: whatever

    Minimum damage: 9112
    Maximum damage: 10827

    Fathom + safety approach
    Head: 2/20 circlet + facet
    Body: CoH
    Shield: Spirit
    Weapon: Fathom + facet
    Belt: Arachnid Mesh
    Rings: Wisp + SoJ
    Gloves: Hellmouth
    Amulet: 2/10
    Boots: whatever

    Minimum damage: 8099
    Maximum damage: 9738

    Fathom + balanced MF approach
    Head: Shako + facet
    Body: CoH
    Shield: Spirit
    Weapon: Fathom + Ist
    Belt: Arachnid Mesh
    Rings: SoJ + Wisp (lite absorb and MF)
    Gloves: Trang Claws
    Amulet: 2/10
    Boots: War Travelers

    Inventory: Gheed
    Minimum damage: 7898
    Maximum damage: 9036
    MF: ~200

    Other options:
    Dwarf Star ofc, but I find it less desirable when Hellmouth is available.
    Shako in safety mode for more mana: then you would need Dwarf Star ring since Hellmouth is not an option unless you drop fcr 1 frame
    Snowclash in some Fathom damage variants, I don't like it, but you can use it
     
  3. Burgomaster3

    Burgomaster3 IncGamers Member

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    @Gripphon That probably covers it, gg. Although I think you might be selling Dwarf Star a bit short. It's more than one trick pony (which Hellmouth really is) after all, giving life and MDR on top of fire absorb. MDR helps with other elemantal types (although the effect might be minimal), and I've never felt like lighting absorb is necessary, although I must admit I've never given it that much thought wrt Travincal. So I'd probably use Chance Guards + Dwarf Star for the HotO safety approach (bonus: lots of gold). Or have I've just been lucky with lightning enchants?

    My setup is pretty much the "Fathom + balanced MF"-approach, with BKWB instead of SoJ and Dwarf Star instead of Wisp Projector. Small charms life/mana/mf. With this setup, the Hydra's make practically no damage, and I start every run with both bulbs full. I call it the "Can play when drunk or really tired"-approach :p Although I'm a bit worried I might at some point find myself wanting a bit more stacked resists, but if I find that necessary, it can be easily arranged by switching couple of charms.
     
  4. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    I know Dwarf Star is very wanted item because hydras, but in reality having nearly maxed fire resistance makes them worthless. They literally do ~7 damage per hit to you like that (not strictly correct number, but there somewhere. Like it matters is it 7 or 9 or 6...). On the other hand, there are 2 more dangerous things in Travincal - random critical hit cold explosions if you happen to be in range, and lightning bolts. Bolts could be really annoying if they nail you under right angle, your life will start to drop rapidly have Dwarf Star or not. This is why I in general consider Wisp to be better defensive option than a Dwarf if resists could be maxed. I use 2 Dwarf Stars on goldfind sorc and maxed lightning resist, and under conviction those bolts hurt like hell, while Hydras with standard sorc are no threat at all, conviction or not. They simply do too little damage to be dangerous.

    But, since standard setup has like ~120 fire resist minus amulet minus any charms, I could see appeal to Dwarf like that since then you can completely ignore fire resistance like it doesn't exist. But, Hellmouth + Wisp provide much better protection than Dwarf on itself, so whoever can should try that combo. Bolts could be avoided if you simply move to the side if they nail you head on too which I am forced to do with goldfind sorc from time to time. From my experience, only thing that can kill you in travincal is unexpected surge of bolts under conviction (could take 1k life quickly), or some combo of cold explosion crit + minion hit on you. Or wrong teleport in the middle of the group.
     
  5. ffs

    ffs IncGamers Member

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    Very nice overview, something for everyone. :)

    I'd approach it differently though, and start from stats which are desirable and then testing out how to gear for them efficiently.

    So (1) damage to kill council quickly, (2) defenses required to be safe, (3) which gear gets you both.

    For me, those numbers are roughly: 9k+ blizzard, 1800 life, 800 mana, capped resists. Current setup (63% FCR with Fathom, Nightwing's, Snowclash, CoH, 2x SoJ, Mara, Spirit, Magefist, WT) gets me there with half of the inventory space used.

    The latter point is very important to keep in mind as nothing slows down more than full inventory in comparison to minor gear differences. This is precisely why I like damage oriented gear because it saves space which otherwise would have to be used for skillers in order to get to the desired damage range.

    Of course I'm ignoring MF except for WT, which I realize is a debatable starting point. But so is 105% FCR. ;)

    Very interesting though how you guys approach the elemental stuff. Funnily enough I couldn't care less about fire and lightning absorb with capped resists, and actually like Snowclash against the cold. ;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017
  6. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    Everyone should do their own approach since everyone seem to have their own problems with sorcs. Also maps differ. Difference between perfect map and near perfect map can be big on a long run, easily resulting in sorc who doesn't have perfect map to need more mana than a sorc who does have map from heaven. Then there are players who collect half of Travincal items and those who collect very few, which would result in different inventory space required.

    There is certain difference between 63 fcr and 105 fcr, allow me to explain.

    First, difference between two setups is very little, anywhere in between 0 up to 1 second. It depends on a player playing sorc. Every setup has its advantage, so I'll try to cover all strengths and weaknesses of both.

    63 fcr strength:
    - it is good for players who otherwise have issues covering their resists, or lack 2/10 amulet or something. Mara's is very convenient to use. Hellmouths are easier used too. It is for either ultimate safety variation or max block variation or palyers who lack gear to go for 105 fcr.
    - it offers 1 blizzard skill more than 105 fcr setup (because of Snowclash). But, that improvement is meaningless. It is hard to see difference between 7k and 9k damage, let alone between say 7k and 7.3k or whatever. This is one of those paper improvements which exists, but is impossible to see difference in practice.

    63 fcr weakness:
    - every run sorc uses at least 10 teleports (going there and going back to act 4), 3 static and possibly 3-4 spams of skills. Up to 20 or even more skills which do depend on fcr, so having lower fcr breakpoint might make a difference. When it shouldn't make any difference is for players who tend to have more "comfortable" playing style, casting spells more slowly etc... They might not see any difference between 105 and 63 fcr. However, when you try to squeeze that sub 22s running out of your sorc, you will not just see it, you will clearly feel the difference between 105 and 63 fcr.

    105 fcr weakness:
    - requires some kind of non-cheap gear to make it work (most namely 2/10 amulet).
    - 1 Blizzard skill less, but as explained, such difference is meaningless and cannot be spotted.
    - possibly harder to make safe, but easily doable for most players I assume, all you need is access to 2/10 amulet pretty much.

    105 fcr strength:
    - faster casting rate makes for faster character, right? If your goal is to have sub 25s sorc, then 63 fcr will do it just fine. But, if you really want to push sub 22 seconds, then you need 105 fcr for it to do it easier. If you are already at this point, you are really fast player and will use better fcr to its full advantage to benefit faster running.

    One difference that is not so easy to see, but can be seen with a test and does further influence runtimes:
    When you have 63 fcr (like my goldfind sorc), minions actually have time to scatter around before you nail them with Blizzard. They react to you when you are teleport away from them, and difference between 63 and 105 fcr is only 2 frames in this sense, but those 2 frames, surprisingly, give minions enough time to screw you and make you hunt them down after you kill the ones that are still in a group (almost like AI in those 2 frames tell some minions to start repositioning instead of nailing you with hydras like they are supposed to do, so when you land, they still tend to run around instead killing you). That basically never (rarely) happens with 105 fcr, minions don't have time to scatter around and you nail them instantly with Blizzard. This is annoying thing I have to deal with goldfind sorc, but there is no way around it. It doesn't happen every run, but tendency for minions to scatter is much much higher than when you use 105 fcr when that happens rarely.


    Conclusion:
    While difference between 63 fcr and 105 fcr is very little, for some players there might not be even a difference at all, it does make a difference once you try to squeeze as much efficiency from your sorc as you can. But, for some players, especially gear-poorer ones, going 63 fcr first is not a bad idea at all. Actually they might benefit from it more due to safety reasons.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017
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  7. T72on1

    T72on1 IncGamers Member

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    Interesting stuff !!!

    I'm using the 'cheap' version of the HotO safety approach: I don't have a SoJ or BKWB, so I'm using a 10%fcr / mana ring there, giving me the option to use Mara's on amulet and still reach 105% fcr. I've tried both facet and Ist in my Shako, can't really say I noticed a difference.

    Just like @ffs I'm at some 1800+ hit points. My resists are maxed, so after this discussion I'm inclined to switch Dwarf Star for something else to try that out. Probably something with +mana and mf%, as I'm still feeling uncomfortable with anything less than let's say 1000 - 1100 mana. That would allow me to switch back to Chance Guards and have close to 200% mf.

    By going to 4x4 free stash space, I managed to hit 27 seconds average per run, with very sloppy play. So I can definitely see me getting to 26 seconds or so. Not much beyond that, unless I start to mule off with GoMule only and not ingame, at least not without DFathom and / or SoJ, so I'm still at a loss about how to get to those 22 sec running times. But I'll leave that issue for the time being, and hopefully I'll be able to come back here after the RFL and report that it was just a matter of needing more practice :).

    I also did a little test run yesterday. Found 30 runes in 63 minutes, so a bit below 0.50 runes per minute. This was averaging 27 seconds per run, so some 140 runs in an hour. I almost didn't get any runes early on though, so I think that @Neksja 's results from his own one hour test run are closer to what you can expect on the whole, which would be a bit more than 0.50 runes per minute.

    After 8 hours of Travincal runs I recently did I have found 4 qualifiers there (Pul, Sur, Um, Mal), which would mean 10 qualifiers after a complete batch of 20 hours. But again I think that is a bit below what can be expected. We'll have far better statistics after the second round of the RFL, considering how many participants there already are ;).
     
  8. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    Statistics is always welcomed. But, rune chances are so low that we need incredibly huge sample to get conclusive results. But, unlike in areas, in Travincal we know exactly how many minions do we kill and what drop chances those minions have. In other words, we know exactly what expectations are, but variability due to rarity of runes is very big.

    For a 26s sorc, given my numbers in this post, expected number of qualifiers (Pul+) is 12.76*30/26 = 14.72
    Even more, expected number of Vex+ runes for her is 4.83. In other words, 26s has expectation of nailing 4 or 5 Vex+ runes in her top 5, aka all 10+ scorers.

    In case you wonder is this for real, yes, it is for real. Whether or not will this happen depends purely on luck. My expected number of qualifiers for RFO was ~16 with expected score of ~162, I ended up with 26 qualifiers and almost 300 score. Year earlier, similarly efficient character, ended up with 10 qualifiers and 65 or whatever score, despite expectation was ~155 for him. Luck, guys. Agreed.

    Anyway, won't post any more advice, I don't wanna make ya all too efficient to leave me and my goldfind sorc at dust. :p This means I won't share unexpected secret upgrade that makes sorcs go even 20% faster, aka all of you would probably be near 20s... No thanks!
    I thought Griffon's could provide upgrade due to -LR to boost static field considerably against 5/11 minions lowering their life by 30% in 3 casts instead of only 10%, but it does not provide any upgrade sadly. But there is an idea for someone to test.
    Yes, I'm just trolling about upgrade.
    Tro Lo Lo Lo Lo Lo
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017
  9. Burgomaster3

    Burgomaster3 IncGamers Member

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    Don't previous RFO results give a pretty good idea of what to expect, since they were done within 20h timeframe as well? Only thing that differs now is that were counting top5, not totals. Although it's probably best to ignore whatever Gripgod was on 2015...

    @Gripphon Good points RE: Dwarf Star vs Wisp Projector. You're probably right about about Hellmouth+Wisp being safer option. As for my current setup, the reason I use Dwarf Star is basically this: The hydras don't do much damage, agreed. But they still do some. If I switch Dwarf for Wisp, I got ~2000 life after BO. The Hydras usually do about 500 damage per run (this varies ofc). That's ok, I can still start next run with my life bulb full. But if those cold explosion crits happen, I'm looking at 900 hp. Then on the next run, I'm at 1500 hp after BO etc. You see where this is going. This happens often enough to be a nuisance, and means that I have to have at least some degree of potion management. For me personally, this is bigger bad than occasionally terrible lightning damage.

    With Dwarf Star, I'm practically always around 2000 hp. I never have to drink potion, unless one of these happens:
    And I always have enough hp to manage these situations, since the hydras don't "soften" me up.

    Although I do think there is an hp threshold at maybe ~2500 where Dwarf becomes wholly obsolete, but reaching that ain't that easy. With 1.07 Shako I'm at 2300 and still encounter same problems I mentioned earlier. It would probably take couple skillers with life or Beta CtA to get there.

    But this is of course my personal bias. Like you said, every one has their own problems with sorc, I probably feel the same about health that @T72on1 feels about mana. It's not that I couldn't run without Dwarf Star (all this has basically no effect on runtimes), it's just psychologically more pleasing for me to do so. Man this game is weird sometimes. :confused:

    There's also the fact that I want Sorc to be easy as possible, because I get enough thrills with the Barbarian :D With him, I go all out on damage, with minimal HP. I think he currently has less life than my Sorc, lol. Haven't had any NDEs yet, though. I'm starting to think ~36s average is possible, I could still get more damage from replacing PTopaz in Arreat's with ED jool or something.
     
  10. pharphis

    pharphis IncGamers Site Pal

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    What if I use 1.07 wizzy instead of hoto and focus even more on safety? I suppose 1.07 ark would be better choice than CoH in such an instance? I'd probably also use sorb gear on top of that because why not. I have all the stupid stuff available that probably isn't necessary (1.07 rising sun, LoH, bloackoak...). I think I have only one wisp, unfortunately.

    I guess I'm ok with 63 fcr bp if it means I can have WAY more hp and res... :/
    HC sucks
     
  11. Pb_pal

    Pb_pal IncGamers Member

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    I'll throw out there what I'm using as well, though as previously mentioned I have very little experience at Trav so it's a small sample size for the runtimes.

    Gear:
    Nightwings + res all jewel
    a pretty lame +1 sorc/10fcr/other crap mods amulet (just to get me to the 105 fcr breakpoint)
    CoH
    Fathom + facet
    Spirit
    Trangs gloves
    Arach
    SoJ/Dwarf Star
    Aldurs boot (life+FR+frw=gg)

    4 Cold Skillers

    Blizz damage: 8.5-8.9k
    Life after BO: 2248
    Mana after BO: 769
    All resistances maxed

    Mana is a bit on the low side, I need a pot every now and then (maybe every 5-10 runs?) but I don't mind snagging off the ground when needed. Life I'm perfectly comfortable with and rarely ever need topping up.

    My map isn't ideal from what I gather, the minions are a bit more spread out than the optimal map. I don't want to risk trying to roll a new one this close to the start of the round though since playtime is scarce that I can't guarantee I'd roll a better one.

    My runtimes hover from 24-30 seconds depending, with an average at just under 27s. With practice hopefully I can get it down a bit, as I'm still quite sloppy (only just over a hundred runs or so of practice)
     
  12. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    @Burgomaster3

    36s with barb is incredibly fast. There are very few players who achieved such fast running with barbs, of which one never collected pgems. 36s barb is like ~22.5s sorc which is really fast.
     
  13. Burgomaster3

    Burgomaster3 IncGamers Member

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    @Gripphon Yeah, I'm a bit shocked I'm even close that kind of numbers. 1.07 stuff goes long way. All my charms except Gheed's are 1.07 maxers, I'm currently getting 154 max damage from inventory, with 4x4 free space o_O. Those and the Zerker Griefs make a big difference. Also the running technique where I'm basically holding alt (or space in my case) down all the time and picking up stuff while in the middle of killing.

    I think for me to reach 36s average would probably mean not caring about gems, at least anything outside ammies/rubies. And overall pretty good focus. My best times have so far been just a bit under 33s (and still have reasonable time to get through loot), while 39s runs start to feel really slow, and there's still room for improvement equipment and playing wise. So yeah, I think it's possible, if I have the energy to give it enough focus.
     
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  14. T72on1

    T72on1 IncGamers Member

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    With my Sorc, I only check drops after everything is dead, since I'm too busy killing stuff before that. I usually make one teleport to the right, to make sure I didn't miss anything. Is this how people usually do it with a Sorc, or do people check drops almost constantly, like they do with Barbs?
     
  15. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    @Burgomaster3

    Since your technique sounds at a best levels already, not sure where could you squeeze more out of your barb. You are teleporting back to act 4, right? If that is covered, I guess you just have to play a bit more to upgrade some more since you did quite a fast progression knowing a week ago you "didn't know" what you are doing.

    @T72on1

    Practice with sorc is to hold alt down all the time as you spam spells. There is no need to do that right teleporting thing, you see everything drop. Barb needs to do this right teleport + walking thing to be sure what dropped due to blind spots which sorc doesn't have unless she doesn't hold alt down when killing.
     
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  16. Neksja

    Neksja IncGamers Member

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    I agree with Grip on this @T72on1, practice "watching your drops". I usually have "alt" (I have it mapped on my space bar) down all the time, very handy when only hunting runes since if you don't see a flash of red, aka. rune, move on. Sure, I'll risk missing some charms, jewels, even occasional rune I'd assume, but it just makes everything so much smoother and faster.

    Great, great discussion about Sorcs here folks. I'll be reading through them in detail at some point, so I can get my own Travi Sorc running some time in the future.
     
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  17. Burgomaster3

    Burgomaster3 IncGamers Member

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    @Gripphon Yeah, i'm teleporting to act 4, playing with 105fcr. There are lots of little mistakes that I think amount to a significant amount. I'm still struggling a bit with the weapon switch, it's hard to distinguish the eth axes from flails when i'm used to phase blade graphics. I'm still experimenting with merc positioning, where's the best place for him to dish out the first decrep etc. I also still have a noobish tendency to "go long" with my first whirl. Stuff like that. I'm also not quite sure when, and if, I should consider skipping Ismail, sometimes killing him just takes too long time. For some of these, a bit more playing and a bit more focus should do the trick. So far, it's mostly been few horrible ~55s runs that raise my average, while majority of runs I get easily around 35-39s.

    As for me saying I didn't know what I'm doing: Well, only half of me was exaggerating ;) Obviously I have played a lot of Whirlers in the past, but lately not so much. I've only been doing really laid back goldfinding, not even trying to go particularly fast, so it took a bit to get used to. But yeah, I think first I was just looking to break under 50s, and then first tests, without practising I was at 42s. And it was quite easy to get under 40s from there. It might be that I hit a brickwall somewhere before 36s, especially if I can't shave off some off those mistakes. But we shall see. At least I have some extra goals to keep me busy, in case those RNGods decide to stingy with the runes again.

    @T72on1 Same as above, I hold alt (space) almost all the time. It's good to take mental notes while still killing, to know what to look for when it's time to pick up stuff. I sometimes pick up things while I'm still killing things. Makes the end of the run much faster, if the last enemy doesn't drop anything, off I go!
     
  18. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    @Burgomaster3

    I had same problems as you and found these fancy solutions to them.

    Switch trick: put Zerk or Double Swing spell on the left side with your axes out, have something (whatever) with hoto out. When you tele and switch, just fast check is the desired skill on the left side which reveals immediately have you managed to switch, or are you whirling with hoto's.

    Immunity trick: biggest pain is cold explosion which makes you chilled and then it takes ages to take that immune dude down. I used nearly maxed (or maxed) cold resistance with ring which has half freeze duration mode. That way once all minions die except for that immune one, I hork for a second or two, enough for chilling effect to wear off (I think it lasts like 5 seconds with maxed resist + HFD mode) and then you pretty much always zerk that dude down fast with a full speed. Only time you should consider skipping him is holy freeze immune dude. But, this is very fancy solution and those rings do not grow on trees, especially with useful secondary mods. I might have some in case you trade or are willing to accept giveaway in case you need it to try this approach.
     
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  19. Xios

    Xios IncGamers Member

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    Surely you could create an autohotkey script (or whatever the preference is these days) to essentially switch the Alt (Space, whatever) key to be a toggle rather than something you need to hold down, if everyone is pressing down their keys so fervently?

    I was just checking to see if such an addition was kosher in the SPF and saw similar remarks being made for say, being able to hold down the mouse rather than individually click for physical attacks among many others.

    If such a thing is frowned upon, well.. you can always go hunting for a nice paper weight. Could spare some numb fingers.
     
  20. Burgomaster3

    Burgomaster3 IncGamers Member

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    @Gripphon Thanks for the tips! The weapon switch one was a "d'oh" moment for me, since I've used the same trick with other characters and didn't think about it.

    As for the other solution.. well, I was already carrying one:
    Code:
    Corruption Circle
    Ring
    Required Level: 46
    Fingerprint: 0x9dd2ee19
    Item Level: 85
    Version: Expansion 1.10+
    +41 to Attack Rating
    4% Mana stolen per hit
    6% Life stolen per hit
    Lightning Resist +19%
    Half Freeze Duration 
    But yeah, good idea horking before resuming to whack Ismail. I also have to stop trying to WW him down a good while before realizing that he's probably immune.

    Btw, is the cold resist that affects freeze duration the current resist, or the resist when chilled? Because I have max cold res on HotO switch, but only 37 on axe switch. I could probably find a cold res alternative for my other ring, but I'd rather not, so I hope switching to the HotO switch affects the duration.

    @Xios I don't know about hotkey scripts, but at least for me, such toggle would be unnecessary. Years of muscle memory after all, I'd just keep hitting the space anyway :p I always map my main skills to Q, W and E, (E being the teleport on every char), so my thumb is resting on space all the time anyway. It's a matter of quite minimal pressure-applying to get those items to show, after all ;)
     

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