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1.14 patch - Thoughts from the SPF

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by In the name of Zod, Jul 7, 2010.

  1. In the name of Zod

    In the name of Zod Diabloii.Net Member

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    1.14 patch - Thoughts from the SPF

    As per tid bit. It sounds like there will be some fix or alteration to how high levels will be obtained as well as some end game alterations. To me it looks like they are not happy with just making high runes simple to obtain but now they're planning on making level 99 easier too.

    Thoughts on this? Note that Bashiok said that he didn't see the current experience curve as wrong.

    Why does it take so long, what was the original intent, are there any ways (legit or not) to decrease the time, and does any of this still apply to the game as it is now?


    Its got to make one wonder if this will mean more PTR's. Would there be any point to it? I know how much people like the game to get easier but seriously we really need a challenge now more than ever. Anyhow I hope this might make us consider the importance of not always asking for more powerful things but perhaps more things to achieve. :scratchchin:
     
  2. Pijus

    Pijus Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: 1.14 patch - Thoughts from the SPF

    The game doesn't need to be harder. When I started playing(back in 1.11), it was so difficult for me. I couldn't get past normal dark wood. It took months until I managed to build a character that could solo at least the start of hell. It doesn't need to be harder.
     
  3. Corale

    Corale Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: 1.14 patch - Thoughts from the SPF

    I agree with Pijus. The game might be easy if you twink and/or have several years of serious D2 behind you, but otherwise it is a hard game to finish. Doesn't mean ItnoZ is wrong though, you can provide many more challenges for the high levels without increasing difficulty for someone just playing normal through hell.

    And as for lvl 99 being easier to get, I don't care much either way. But right now it is almost an unrealistic goal, which I think is slightly bad game design.
     
  4. San

    San Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: 1.14 patch - Thoughts from the SPF

    Definitely needs to get harder, the only way for me to get some challenge out of D2 is to set self-imposed rules, and that gets old for me much too fast.

    Median was a refreshing experience, when I played it for a while, the challenge was a nice change to the steady grinding of vanilla D2 lod.
     
  5. In the name of Zod

    In the name of Zod Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: 1.14 patch - Thoughts from the SPF

    I do understand what people mean when they say the game shouldn't get harder. And I do understand what its like being new to the game. Yes. But isn't that when the game is also so much more fun?
     
  6. Nightfish

    Nightfish Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: 1.14 patch - Thoughts from the SPF

    I honestly don't see why people are asking for the game to be even easier than it is. It's not even a matter of twinking the Hell out of your characters. There are multiple builds that can solo Hell pretty much naked. That just shouldn't be possible.

    Seriously, if you're not good enough to beat the game, the game needs to be made easier? I disagree. What's the point of playing a game if you can't lose? That's one of the main reasons why Torchlight is fun for 15 minutes at best. It's pretty much impossible to not win. I firmly believe that it's up to the player to find out how to beat a game, not up to the designer to make the game so that whatever the players are doing results in winning. I've seen this happen before in other games where a perfectly functional system got changed, simply because people were unable to grasp how to make things work. That's pretty sad, imho.

    There already is an easy difficulty for beginners. It's called "Normal". Hell should be Hell and not "pretty much the same as normal".


    Personally, if I could change things about the game I'd give an option for experienced players to skip Normal and Nightmare and start in Hell right away. And I'd up the difficulty in Hell significantly.

    Aside from that, there are still a lot of broken skills in the game that are just plain pointless to use, either because they are bugged or because they are the Barb's Increased Stamina. That should be fixed as well.
     
    galtwish likes this.
  7. SeCKSEgai

    SeCKSEgai Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: 1.14 patch - Thoughts from the SPF

    The big problem is that item availability. I remember the very first time I made it through Diablo 2, untwinked in SP on norm. I saw a blue serpentskin armor and was amazed by it, can't even remember what the stat was. I was just so amazed to see armor with over a 100 def that didn't have a huge str req.

    For most people who end up playing D2 significantly, even hell can be "easy". While I haven't forgotten when I thought I'd never play Hell difficulty, I honestly don't really play until Hell because its all second nature now. But in respect to more casual gamers, what's standard fare for us may be asking a lot out of them.

    As for hitting 99, after seeing the same baal running bots running days on end and barely making a dent, I gave up on the idea. They are afk for most of their running, when I'd have to be controlling each and every mindless run...


     
  8. In the name of Zod

    In the name of Zod Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: 1.14 patch - Thoughts from the SPF

    I love that counter point. :thumbup: Lets not forget that 'asking a lot' also includes providing the player with a reasonable difficulty curve to adjust to. Without this the player will just give up. Lets also not forget that the game has changed since we all started so its not as straight forward to understand [what its like to be new now] as one first perceives it to be.


     
  9. queenEm

    queenEm Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: 1.14 patch - Thoughts from the SPF

    Well, I haven't played as long as some people here and I think that today D2 has easy parts and difficult parts. What could be added is a "semi" impossible goal apart from reaching lvl 99. Today you have the Normal level. Then you move on to mf:ing and twinking characters, playing with different builds. And then there is a huge gap to having the lvl 99 goal. Is there anything in between? That I am missing
     
  10. Nightfish

    Nightfish Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: 1.14 patch - Thoughts from the SPF

    That's exactly my point. The hardest difficulty should be too hard for casual gamers. That's why it's called hard. Or in this case, Hell.

    Nowadays most games got so easy that they barely require any effort at all. That's why they don't last as long anymore.

    I'm not demanding that normal, or even nightmare be challenging. Let those be for the casual crowd and more power to them. But why does the entire game need to be so easy that a drunken monkey chewing on the mouse has a decent chance of beating it?



     
  11. TheNix

    TheNix Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: 1.14 patch - Thoughts from the SPF

    I first started playing D2 in 1.09 and any build could beat Hell Baal, I know, I beat him with some seriously crap builds. I never played 1.10, but 1.11/1.12 seemed to be a good level, Normal was relatively easy and the step up from NM to Hell was significant. The removal of IM in 1.13 may have balanced up the melee with the caster somewhat, but has generally dumbed down the game play in the areas where it was prevalent.

    Now we add in the higher rune drops. If everyone can now deck themselves out in super-uber gear, the game may need to be amped up to cope. The problem with this is that newcomers get their arses kicked to the point that they quit before they get the equipment that is NOW required to play the game. This was also the problem with MXL, the experienced players screamed that the game needed to be harder and the newcomers left in droves while the elite sneered their collective scorn.

    As I've said, I thought that 1.12 was a good middle ground, but Bliz will not wind the play back to that. So we are stuck with 1.13, to least for the time being. From what I read, but I just skimmed the piece, it wasn't the game play that was deemed "too hard" by players, it was getting the characters to lvl 99. I personally see that as a meaningless goal, but hey, what to I know? I'd prefer to try the dozen or two different builds that are rattling around in my head than to waste time getting a character from lvl 98 to 99, a task that I see not as difficult, just time consuming.
     
  12. In the name of Zod

    In the name of Zod Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: 1.14 patch - Thoughts from the SPF

    Well yeah thats another point for making it easier to get to level 99 is that those extra 10 level's being made available to us might allow for more build's to be created. I know an assassin could use a spare 10 skill points. You could have frenzy/whirl builds. There could be a lot more options opening if they decide to go that road.

    I disagree that its a meaningless goal to get to level 99. Sure its pointless considering the costs:rewards ratio.
     
  13. XCodes

    XCodes Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: 1.14 patch - Thoughts from the SPF

    I don't think making it easier to get to level 99 would necessarily make the game easier. As said before, the difficulty level for people who are on the ball is already abysmally low, and having another 15 skill points isn't going to change that. A few adjustments I would make:

    1) Remove the XP bonus for SP characters using the /players command. It removes the increased difficulty of tough monsters from the equation, because you wind up about 5 levels ahead of the normal curve. I did a single pass, full-clear with a necromancer and got to level 48 before killing Baal on normal. Baal isn't hard at level 48!

    2) Make it easier to get to 99 without making it easier to get to 85. Once you're above level 85ish, the rest pretty much doesn't matter. There's only a scant few items with level requirements over level 85.

    3) This will never happen (it's likely too much work), but change how sockets and runewords work. Basically, have any set, rare, crafted, or unique item spawn with up to 4 sockets on it and enable them to have runewords put in them. Remove the base effects of runes and change runewords so they only give one or two of their most prominent effects. For example, Ancient's Pledge would give about 35% Res All and 10% Damage to Mana. Leaf would do something like +1 Fire Skills and +1 Defense per Clvl. As it is, Runewords are stupidly powerful. The only weapons that have a snowball's chance in hell of keeping pace with them are socketed elite uniques (they often have to be ethereal, too) like an upped Hone Sundan or a Tomb Reaver.

    4) Change charged and proc mods. Have the level of the skills scale better, like ilvl 80 items having something like a 5% chance to cast Slvl 20 Chain Lightning on hit instead of some pathetic Slvl 8 Chain Lightning or relevant items having slvl 10 Lower Resist charges instead of slvl 2. This isn't as important on the items that proc necromancer curses, but that's because of laziness in Curse design anyway. Also, bring back the bug that lets item charges synergize skills. I know this is a problem with Marrowwalks, so just reduce the Slvl on that item. Without synergies, a lot of oskills are just plain terrible (like Trang set's Fireball and Meteor spells). Having an option to improve that, even if it's not how the mod was intended to be used, would be nice. Besides, do you seriously think that anyone will ever bother with using Slvl 5 firebolt charges the way you guys intend us to?

    5) Heat up the AI a little. Make greater mummies and fetish shamans revive more. Have harpies cast the Blood Mana curse against more targets. Change boss packs to have group tactics, like gloam bosspacks firing in tandem and avoiding melee. Increase the amount of damage healed by Hierophants and make them use it more.

    ...oh, and this goes for Mercs and Skeleton Mages, too. Having my mages shoot into walls is one thing, but having them stand out in the middle of nowhere and shoot at literally nothing is just stupid.
     
  14. DeathMaster

    DeathMaster Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: 1.14 patch - Thoughts from the SPF

    my opinion:

    1. Currently reaching lvl99 is sort of too hard, I agree it should be made slightly easier, to give some semi hardcore players a chance.

    2.There is no need to make the game harder. But they should at least fix those bugged skills/monsters/etc.

    3. Instead make the game harder, they should make the game require slight skills to play. Like NF said, the current form is way too simple that a drunken monkey can beat it. I mean, what's the point if you can hold down right mouse button, and then finish the whole game without ever use different skill or tactic? The remove of IM was a really bad move, it's not hard to fix it after all.
     
  15. XCodes

    XCodes Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: 1.14 patch - Thoughts from the SPF

    No kidding. They toned down the damage on Nhil's CE, they can tone down the reflected damage on an OK's IM.


     
  16. DeathMaster

    DeathMaster Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: 1.14 patch - Thoughts from the SPF

    The easiest way, just make it % based. Say max damage = 25% current life. So you can never kill yourself by IM alone. But if you insist to melee while you are under IM, then that's anther story.
     
  17. Cyrax

    Cyrax Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: 1.14 patch - Thoughts from the SPF

    I agree with NF that hell actually isn't hard enough. Normal and NM are good for people new to Diablo and, depending on build, for untwinked play. But for me those difficulties are just an annoyance i have to get through to get where it really starts: hell.
    And in that respect hell isn't hard enough. I'm doing Baalruns with my sorc (with good gear i admit) while i'm also watching tv. I mean come on. The fact i can combine it with something like following a movie on tv says enough about how much attention it requires. And that is pretty much related to how difficult it is. Only when playing HC i pay more attention, but that might also be because i'm not that wealthy in HC and i play untwinked there.

    As for making getting to 99 easier i'd say no way. Getting to 99 is a real achievement as it is. If they tone that down than one of the last real achievements will be gone. Runes are already much easier to find. Which means owning an enigma or infinity or finding a zod doesn't mean that much anymore. So i guess if they changed this too the only thing left would be finding a Tyrael's. Which is more luck than an achievement.
    If they want to change anything in this area of the game i would say they shouldn't make it easier to get to 99, but make it more diverse. Now it's just grinding either Baal or Diablo until way past you get sick from them.
    Instead you might think of a new area to run (as opposed to a single target) which gives you slightly (just slightly) more exp than Baal/Diablo, but is so hard that it requires your full attention even with a fully decked out char (as a result this would also mean that this area is pretty much impossible to run for newer and/or undergeared players).
    This would make it more diverse by running an area and give an extra challenge because it's harder.
    And why would you make it easier to get a 99-er? So more people will have one? Not really necessary as i think someone here before me mentioned, you can play the game just as good with a lvl 80 or 90 char.

    Just as mentioned by others, i think IM should've been toned down instead of removed, but i think that's a different discussion.
     
  18. Smips

    Smips Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: 1.14 patch - Thoughts from the SPF

    I think the difficulty of the game is fine where it is. It's very challenging to new players. The problem comes in with veterans of the game finding the game too easy either after acquiring enough familiarity with the game or after they acquire enough powerful gear. So, Blizzard just needs something to add a challenge for the veterans of the game. The Ubers were supposed to do that, but it's my understanding that it's not too hard to solo them with the right builds. Plus they aren't available in SP. I'd say make some optional bosses or areas where a single build can't run rampant, but at the same time isn't an impossible challenge. Unfortunately, I think the border between Impossible and Challenging for all builds is a very fine line in D2 now.
     
  19. TheNix

    TheNix Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: 1.14 patch - Thoughts from the SPF

    I meant that it's a meaning goal for me, not that it's a meaningless goal in general.

    Excuse me, but why the hell are you still playing if you think the game is so boring? After seven or eight years I still do full clear, well almost, of just about every level from act 1 Normal to act 5 Hell. And why? Because I still love playing the game!

    I sorta like the idea of new items/runewords, or better new areas, that come available at lvl 95 or higher. Then there would be a reason to put in the effort to get a character up to those levels. Bragging rights are no incentive for me.



     
  20. Cyrax

    Cyrax Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: 1.14 patch - Thoughts from the SPF

    @TheNix:
    For me there are 2 main reasons i do that. First is completing the grail (and progress on the perfect grail). The second is getting a lvl 99 char. I can combine both goals when running Baal. And i do take pleasure out of finding that grailie or getting one lvl closer to 99. Both rare events though, so that's why the perfect grail is nice to have. You get some improvement in that area a bit more often.
    Oh, and i like the friendly competition with other D2 players both in getting to 99 and in finding the (perfect) grail.

    Before that i did do a lot of different chars. That's because i like the variety of chars, skills and gameplay that are involved. That's why i have 15+ lvl 90 chars (and 30+ in total). But for a change i wanted to actually get as far as you can take a char. Or at least give it a good shot.

    For better (for me) and more intense gameplay i choose to play HC and the occasional tournament. In HC i always play untwinked plus you have the added danger off 1 death eliminating your char forever. Tournaments add even a bit more difficulty/novelty because of things like item and skill restriction.
     

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