1.10 FAQ Updation thread (read before asking general questions) - Updated 12/08/05

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BIGeyedBUG

Diabloii.Net Member
Found a mistake in the FAQ: The NextDelay of PS is only on its 2nd and 3rd charges. (Makes sense too--imagine what an ND'd Meteor's burntime would do to martial artists.)

Also, I'm wondering about the effects transferred on exploding arrows. ThyForbidden didn't say specifically that they were carried on the area-effect. I haven't worked with any of this stuff in 1.1, but I'd heard that few if any effects carried in that way. Anybody know more about this?
 

Naliworld

Diabloii.Net Member
Thanks for the corrections! I've added the note about PS, and put an 'unconfirmed' disclaimer on the mods that are in question...
 

BIGeyedBUG

Diabloii.Net Member
Nali-

I'm worried that the "WW WSM" will confuse people. The problem is that WSMs are normally better the lower they are, and the pattern is reversed on Ruvanal's table.

A: The breakpoints for an Assassin’s WW are as follows:
Code:

Frames | Whirlwind WSM*

12 | -33 and lower
------------------------
10 | -32 to -25
------------------------
8 | -24 to -10
------------------------
6 | -9 to +12
------------------------
4 | +13 and higher


*What is Whirlwind WSM(henceforth referred WW WSM)? It's basically the IAS you have on your weapon(hereforth referred to as WIAS), minus the base WSM of your claw(eg. you would use 0 here if you used a Scissors Suwayyah). In short, WW WSM = Weapon IAS - WSM of claw.
Maybe a table that lists the actual weapons or WSMs on the x axis, and WIASs on the y axis would be better? I have no idea how difficult it would be to format a table like that... Otherwise, maybe just reversing the order and signs, you know: WSM minus WIAS must equal -13 or less for a 4 frame, +9 to -12 for a 6 frame, and so on.

Just a suggestion, although no matter what it's gonna confuse somebody...
 

Billweed

Banned
Naliworld said:
Please read the 1.10 Assassin FAQ before asking general questions. Remember, God kills a kitten every time you ask an Assassin question here that's already been answered in the FAQ. So, please, think of the kittens. :p
Someone asked about using Nat's set and after researching it in this guide and all the excellent follow up I had to tell them...

The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly is:

G) I LOVE the Cool look of Nat's Set Full so enjoy

B) Every Guide out there PVP and PVM says it sucks (the boots do suck for a kicker) in spite of the DR and Sockets somehow - seriously no one even recommends a partial with socketed armor why? Well that leads me to the UGLY part.

U) Apparently, with Traps being treated as minions. Primary and off claws only effecting certain things certain ways depending on what hand you have them in (not to mention the "Switch hand" That the game somehow does now at certain times), Next Delay effects on who hit them first and how long till someone else can hit them, Boot Type damage, items that give the Barb WW skill etc etc etc

The only way to properly tell what gear to use with what skills and when is to lock a indeterminate number of mathematicians in a box with a possibly dead cat and swing it around you head 3 times then read the entrails (as a kitten dies every time you ask a question or didn't you read that in the FAQ) - Getting a decent answer about SIN reality is frankly impossible at this stage of the game.
 

Billweed

Banned
BIGeyedBUG said:
Nali-

I'm worried that the "WW WSM" will confuse people. The problem is that WSMs are normally better the lower they are, and the pattern is reversed on Ruvanal's table.



Maybe a table that lists the actual weapons or WSMs on the x axis, and WIASs on the y axis would be better? I have no idea how difficult it would be to format a table like that... Otherwise, maybe just reversing the order and signs, you know: WSM minus WIAS must equal -13 or less for a 4 frame, +9 to -12 for a 6 frame, and so on.

Just a suggestion, although no matter what it's gonna confuse somebody...
That table would be way to limited, just write it as a differential equation.
 

BIGeyedBUG

Diabloii.Net Member
I'm now positive that CoT's NextDelay doesn't prevent all targets from being hit with the effects of both charges 2 and 3. Without going over all the details, I compared a two-charge and three-charge CoT/Dragon Tail release in pseudo-pvp and consistently got (over the course of two-hundred tests) damage in line with what you would expect if this were the case. This means that a kb'd release target can actually get hit with the damage of all three charges. :)

Since kb's don't push targets that far into the Nova zone, it also means that there is a large area where Nova victims are also eligible for Charged Bolt damage. This means that many targets can actually receive two-and-a-half times the damage previously thought. :)

Presumably, any kind of KB will work. But Dragon Tail is especially interesting for its ability to push back multiple targets. I'm a big fan of CoT as a primary skill, but there are obvious implications for dual-claw TS/DTailers looking for ways to deal with problem immunes.

Once again: CoT RAWKS RAWKS RAWKS!!! :yep:
 

thc-shadow

Diabloii.Net Member
i dunno if im reading this correctly, but i can say from experience that off-hand leech and cb work with dtalon.

i have tucs on primary and jade on secondary...never lose mana

vs. dclone i have strength on secondary which puts me at 100%cb. this makes a HUGE difrerence in kill time. i seriously belive cb is transfered.
 

Naliworld

Diabloii.Net Member
Hmm....did you try taking off all leech from equipment, putting a no-leech claw on primary, and the Jade Talon on secondary? Stuff like mana/kill and +damage to mana could also interfere with results. I tried a similar experiment, except I used Bartucs to test LL, and I found with the Bartuc as the off-hand claw, there was no leech swirl.

Hm...CB is a little difficult to test. Perhaps you could place a 'Malice' claw on your off-hand, and see whether OW activates?
 

thc-shadow

Diabloii.Net Member
good call, ill test ow asap. testing cb should be easy offline, make a 3xBer claw. but i dont have an editor/mod.

as for leech my tucs is always screen-left. but the mana has to be comming from jade (i have no other source), i never see it drop.

again, ill test as soon as i can, ive been real busy with work (gogo 46hrs this week)
 

thc-shadow

Diabloii.Net Member
short and simple; leech works, ow doesnt.

with tucs/jade, i consistantly get both red and blue swirls.

shame about ow tho
 

Naliworld

Diabloii.Net Member
Hm...tested again with just Jade Talon and Bartucs being the only sources of leech, and no matter how I messed with the claw arrangement, I always either got the red swirl or the blue swirl, but never both...

I guess we have to wait for someone else to re-test this...
 

SlickKilla

Diabloii.Net Member
quick question. you mentioned that the attributes dont work for a kick when you have them on your off hand claw. if you're a claw sheild assassin will the mods like leech, elemental, crushing blow, ect carry over? or will it be the same as for c/c?
 

Naliworld

Diabloii.Net Member
All mods, whether from the main claw(eg. Fury's Open Wounds) and Shield(Swordback Hold's Open Wounds) will transfer normally for all skills. The only time the mods don't transfer is when the mod is on a claw that replaces the Shield.
 

ilkori

Diabloii.Net Member
A few questions.
*What is modified WSM? It's basically the WSM of your claw(eg. you would use 0 here if you used a Scissors Suwayyah), minus the amount of IAS you have on your weapon(henceforth referred to as WIAS). In short, Modified WSM = WSM of claw - Weapon IAS.
Is this correct? WW IAS is not subject to diminihing returns? I always thought it was, just from the numbers used by Barbarian WW tables for the IK Stone Crusher.
Q: Does Weapon Block work when running?

A: WB does not work at all when moving(which means both running and walking). It works as per normal when standing still, and strangely, also works normally when the Assassin is Whirlwinding.
Testing done on the Battle.net forum indicated that Fireball and Iceblast are both blocked by claws. I feel that more testing needs to be done with specific skills before this kind of blanket statement can be used. When those two spells were blocked, there was no animation, the spells just simply disappeared resulting in no damage.
Q: Can I pre-buff my Venom with +% Poison Skill Damage mods like the ones found on Trang-Oul's Claws and the 'Bramble' runeword? Will the bonuses dissapear right after I take them off?
???
I believe the prebuffs remain, but you do not get the double application of +% dmg once the sources are removed. This was not tested by me, but appears to be common knowledge by the WW sins on the Battle.net forum.
 

Naliworld

Diabloii.Net Member
I was never aware that there were any diminishing returns for WW attacks...where did you find these WW speed tables?

Erm, I don't quite follow...how does blocking spells with WB relate to whether it works when running?

Thanks, I will add that in.
 

ilkori

Diabloii.Net Member
The only experience I have with the technical aspect of WW is when I built my IK Barb. That has a base speed of 20, and there is already 40 IAS on the maul. In order to get the 4-frame attack with the barbarian, an additional 30 IAS is needed. I don't know the exact break point, and due to the major flaw in Battle.net forum the thread no longer exists. If things work different with claws, then that's great, and I think the diminishing returns would still allow Chaos/Fury to make the break. - I'm no expert here, just repeating what I've heard. It might work differently with claws, but that would be speculation on my part.

If you block fire balls and ice blasts while running, then obviously it isn't completely broken. That was my only point.

Your welcome. In case my initial post wasn't clear, one application of +% would remain, but the other would be lost.
 

RTB

Diabloii.Net Member
Naliworld said:
I was never aware that there were any diminishing returns for WW attacks...where did you find these WW speed tables?
Where do you think the breakpoints come from? WW Attack speed has dimishing returns. It's there in your table.

ilkori: The problem testing on Bnet has is desynch. You never know where you or the spell or your opponent exactly is. I believe WB does not work when running, and is capable of blocking almost all spells when standing still or attacking.
nitpick: IK maul has 10 WSM :p
 

ilkori

Diabloii.Net Member
Grr - Yes, the maul has speed 10. It's funny what happens when you try to talk about other classes when you basically only play assassins... *grumble grumble*

Desynch was the only explanation supporting the broken WB. Myself and at least one other player tested running back and forth in straight lines and got the same results. It could still be desynch... but I'll need a little more testing to convince myself. The testing done on the Battle.net forums can be found here. As a basic warning, this is a thread on the Battle.net forums, so it is full of pointless flaming and illiterate posting. The testing did seem to be done carefully, and aligns with what others on this forum have reported - with the noted exceptions of those two sorc skills.
 
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