Vote: How do you feel about the Skills and Runes system revision? - Diabloii.Net

Vote: How do you feel about the Skills and Runes system revision?


The much-anticipated Beta patch 13 has arrived, and the long-promised DiabloWikiskill and DiabloWikirunestone system overhaul has been presented. No longer are runestones items, the skillrune effects come in every 8 or 10 levels over the life of your character, the level 30-60 deadzone is gone, there are no more rune levels, and it’s all accessed through a new UI that almost everyone hates. (Honestly, that’s not true. I played a few more hours tonight and I’m now used to it. It’s not good, but it’s okay, once you know how to operate it and don’t expect too much.)

So, all things considered, what do you think? How does this new system compare to the various versions we heard about previously, back when runestones were items? Pick the vote option that best expresses your opinion, and we’ll do our usual community consensus thing.

BTW, if you aren’t actually playing in the beta, I insist that you inform yourself before you vote. Go watch the short video Elly put together — it provides the best explanation and demonstration of the skill system you’re going to see anywhere.


Do you like the new intergrated skills and runes system?

  • 2) Like the new system, but it's got room to improve. (47%, 3,124 Votes)
  • 1) Love the new system. Almost perfect. (16%, 1,087 Votes)
  • 3) Dislike the new system. Needs MANY fixes. (15%, 994 Votes)
  • 5) Don't know/no opinion. (12%, 808 Votes)
  • 4) Hate the new system. (10%, 659 Votes)

Total Voters: 6,672

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Last Vote Results

The last vote asked what you guys thought about D3 missing the “early 2012” release date and moving to the “Q2 release window” that it may or may not meet.

Obviously not a lot of you guys were happy about it, but the rage was a lot less than we’ve seen in the past over any number of feature changes. I think there were actually more angry threads and comments back in October, when Blizzard announced the 2011 date wasn’t going to happen. Maybe we’ve all seen enough Blizzard delays by now that the surprise has gone?

So, D3 slipped another release date…

  • 2) Unhappy. Why did I get my hopes up? (36%, 2,408 Votes)
  • 3) Meh. “When it’s done.” is serious business. (30%, 2,031 Votes)
  • 1) Outraged. Disgusted. Nuke Irvine. (23%, 1,553 Votes)
  • 4) Happy.. I’ll have more time to play come summertime. (6%, 418 Votes)
  • 5) No opinion. (5%, 334 Votes)

Total Voters: 6,745

Comments

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  1. Like the new system (not sure about progression need more data a.k.a. full game==full opinion ), hate the new interface.
     

    • Same for me. I like the new system, but really dislike the look of UI for it.

      • I still feel they should not only use runes for skills but also consider them for runeworded gear and using runes in gear sockets just like d2… but maybe that’s just nostalgia speaking.

      • I think the old skill UI lends itself to a much more fluid experience (not to mention UI uniformity) and can easily be tailor fit to work with the new system. My mock up is a fast first pass with the old runes still in place (which are far easier to differentiate) but the new fiery runes could easily be implemented as well.

        Click through for deviant art image:http://fav.me/d4qpve7 

    • be quiet !!! If they hear about this they will start working on it from the beginning 😛

    • I think 90% of us agree unanimously with this statement.

  2. whats up with “find community consensus” always?
    i really cant see why it should be possible to achvie consense in such matters or why it should be our/your goal to find this consens 

    • The consensus can be to disagree on X or Y. I just use it meaning that these votes give us a good sense of what the Diablo community actually feels about the various issues. Rather than just being influenced by the dozens or hundreds who are motivated enough to complain (or praise) loudly.

      • you “consensus on a topic = summary of how all the people feel about the topic”
        me “consensus on a topic = everyone has the same feeling about the topic”
        definition “consensus = http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/consensus
        so i think you use it in a wrong way?    

        • Usually, a consensus fully satisfies nobody so I would not say “everyone has the same feeling about the topic”. Sometimes, a consensus is not found.

          • … consensus = points that EVERYONE agrees too.. period

          • You’re confused about the subject of the sentence. The “consensus” formed by these votes is a knowledge of and agreement about what the community feels.  That’s the consensus we get from these votes, knowing what a statistically significant % of concerned citizens think.

            Right now, anyone can say “most people hate/love the new skill system” and there’s no real way to refute those assertions. Counting up opinions in forums threads is one diagnostic tool, but it’s inherently flawed in that it over represents the views of the vocal minority. 

            I suppose I could say something like, “the vote results will give us insight into what the diablo community feels about X” but 1) that’s self-evident, and 2) that’s a lot wordier than “consensus.”

          • at first the short version: 
            i dont think anyone can be expected to know that “consensus” here referes to “the opposite of the sate where everyone has a different opinion on how the community feels about a topic, because everyone can only orient themselfes on the hate/love-treads by some very motivated fans” 
            _
            did i understand what you replyed me?
            _

            long version:
              after (again) reading how you used “consensus” in the previous votes i fully understand how you can use it in this way. but unless, before using “consensus” in this way, you would write about:
            “the rage/love threads of some very motivated fans make some people think that the whole community hates a feature and other people that the whole community loves a feature. so there are always debates (=/= consensus) where the one party says “most of the community hates this feature” and the other party says “most people love the feature” or “there are as many haters as lovers and some dont care”. and to replace this debates with consensus we do this vote”
            it is very confunsing why you would use the word “consensus” here. i think noone doenst understand it as “i, flux, will analyse the vote and then tell you what single opinion we ~collectively have about this topic”
            _
            and since that doenst make sense, because why would everyone (without knowing it (lol)) agree on a diablo topic, i asked what you mean by that. well… i accused you of using “consensus” wrong.

  3. i would vote for something like “i like it” (not “love”; and without “room to improve”)

  4. Like the system, obvious the UI needs work as well as the way elective mode works. Hope they add some sort of progression to the runes (maybe some items (scrolls/books?) that can make your runes better? Which you can use at the Mystic?) but i guess that’ll be hard since they start of with the equivalent to the level 4/5 ones

  5. There’s some annoying stuffs:
    1. Ability gets locked if it is already signed to some button. This prevents you to browse the runes for that skill.
    2. When you browse skills through a mouse button, there are some skills that it wont’s show. Guess they draw a line which skills are good/bad for mouse buttons.
    3. You can’t see the whole picture, lots of back and forth clicking. This will most likely make players to go outside the game and using calculator.
     
    Hope this is just a middle step. Looks like they just made something up fast for testing. Would like the way it worked in patch 12 + button to expand the runes for the skill.

    • Yeah, lots of the UI stuff is really bad. I wanted to make this vote a bit more of an overview on the removal of runestones as an item, the spacing out of skillrune effects throughout the whole character progression, etc. But I don’t suppose anyone can really vote on that, when the presentation is so bad.

      It’s a pity Bliz didn’t have a better iteration of the UI, as that element of things is really dominating the debate, when I’m more interested in the long term ramifications of the system.

      • yes a lot of stuff is bad, the original skill description is repeated as you mouse over every rune.

        Keeping the old UI, they couldve implemented runes (or skill modifiers) by just having you hold-click a skill and be presented with the different runes that when moused-over for a second, give you the description. That way you keep the whole skills picture intact and people happy. (imagine Mac OS Dock)

        It really seems put together very fast. In elective mode, you can’t see some level requirements (when more the 5 skills on one page i think) because both arrows (from elective mode) are ontop of it.

        I was disappointed with it, it just shows how far we are from release.

         

        • I think the fact that you have both the original and new description splitted is good since you can see the differences in what the runed version brings to the table compared to the original skill. I wouldn’t remove this information so quick comparisons can be done like everything else that is a “should I take it or not” decision in the game.

  6. I’m not in the beta, but I must say I like the new skill & rune system a lot. The UI is the only thing that looks to me needs tightening up but that’s what feedback & polish are for right?!

  7. Flux, I feel your next post really needs to address the social/community aspect of Diablo games and Battle.net.

    Here is a rough image thrown together by a fan of what the collective Diablo community wants: http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa394/onetwosc/newd3screen2.jpg

    The reason why it’s important is because Diablo is a social game that revolves around loot. People need a place to communicate and display their accomplishments. Isn’t that part of the fun of the Diablo series? Blizzard has really ripped the social aspect right out of Battle.net 2.0 which is something I can’t understand for the life of me. The 2.0 UI looks like it belongs on a console system. Perhaps that was their plan? Battle.net at it’s very core is suppose to be an online community, but the new 2.0 has taken the communication out by dumbing it down to a level that makes it frustrating to meet others. As it stands now it’s basically: Auto join a game, play, leave, repeat. Part of the magic of Blizzard games is the social aspect of Battle.net and in 2.0 it’s just not there.

    • +1

      our e-peens shall be measured 

    • I’ll take functionality over pretty looks.
      Sure it’s ugly, but look at all the stuff it does that our version does not.

      Online only, forever alone.

    • Grandma approved!

    • That would be amazing
       

    • Well, since they have noobified wow, I don’t believe Blizzard really thinks social interaction is really important. Since they introduced LFG dungeons (looks a lot like how D3 works), anonymous other players with those battlegroups, the game has gone downhill. Think Blizz had it right, socially, with Wow vanilla and BC, D2 was not a very social game to either. I will probably be playing mostly solo in D3, I don’t feel like flame chats, ppl leaving randomly, or ppl saying nothing at all 😉

  8. It still needs the ability to “socket” things in the skills to give that customization feel (like City of Heroes did).  You can use Gems (which are in the game right now), and lead it to Jewels and Runes (of D2X) amongst other ideas to expand it later.  

    The basic “idea” of the system is okay, that you unlock everything by levelling, it just needs some sort of player driven customization that uses the items driven by Diablo’s item hunt gameplay.

    The UI is horrible and needs to be fixed.  ‘Nuff said on that. 

  9. I honestly don’t care. Just get the damn game out already! 😉

  10. What I don’t get (and why I’m nothing more than meh/disappointed) about the new system:
     
    Endless or really protracted item hunt? Yay, awesome, longevity, woo-hoo, rainbows and unicorns.
     
    Endless or really protracted skill-improvement hunt via rune drops? Boo, hiss, worst. idea. ever., etc.
     
    To me, this isn’t about the same tired arguments about customization and so on. I just feel like–if “choice” is fun, then offering greater choice over time by forcing people to make decisions across skills, available runes, and rune ranks is more interesting than having them pick from a static set of things unlocked up to that point. If they want a compromise system (level X through Y rune ranks unlock by level, but rune upgrades are still obtainable), awesome. But I feel like there was this big chunk of “content” involved in upgrading skills multiple times via runes that has just been excised from the game, and I was really looking forward to it.
     
    Also, the UI for elective mode is ghastly beyond belief. If this is what goes into the retail version, I know at least a few people who might refuse to play until it gets more amenable to having fun rather than digging through menus.

    • I kind of agree with you. And about a week ago I would have done. But then I started playing Diablo 2 again, and while to begin with I loved dropping gems and runes, now I pretty much hate it. Inventory management is fun to an extent but for me it gets old quickly. 
       
      I liked the idea of finding things to slot into my skills to make them better. Getting skills automatically but being able to power them up from items you find would be ideal, IMO. It’s just a matter of finding the right implementation of that and Blizzard couldn’t, for one reason or another. I’m happy with the very wide variety of customisation available and happily trade off a mechanic different only in aesthetics; by the time I’m playing it, I probably won’t even notice.

  11. New UI, let us pick our own runes, and I give it a big thumbs up.

  12. I’ll repost what I added to a previous topic since I think it is a very good idea on a compromise to the new system
    http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/forum-watch-80-beta-patch-13-feedback/comment-page-1#comment-36628
    —–
    Someone should emphasize to Blizz this idea which seems a nice compromise on customization before we hit lvl 60 with the new system. At least we wouldn’t be wedged in taking all the same skills/runes because of the way they are arbitrarily assigned on the way to level 60.
     

  13. The system itself is great. The UI is the worst thing they have shown us so far.
     

  14. It’s awful that 50% like it. It means that devs don’t have to improve it and I have to accept this stupid system (omg, it’s even not system anymore…)

    • Don’t you hate it when people don’t hate the things that you hate just to hate them?

    • They knew that lack of internal character design didn’t sit well with players, so they somehow managed to make an even more ridiculously stupid system. Players will pick the max runes at max level, or close to it. The strongest, most useful runes will be the ones players rest on. No stat allocation. No charms (there should be a “charm inventory”). Really runes ARE just a flashy way to have “other skills”. That’s all it is. All characters will be statistically idential for a given level and class. Stat heavy gear lacking in flavor.

      What the hell is going on? “We’re confident our new system will make Diablo 3 a better game.” Oh, you’re confident eh? These guys are drunk on their own power. It’s so fu-cking amazing they could actually wreck this game harder than they have. I’m sad to say this. I cannot even purchase diablo 3 now. I’m following it to see if they save it… but so close to release… fat chance. You guys (D3 team) are as much in a bubble as Bill Maher paints the republicans. You are blind morons incapable of making a game 1/10th the addiction level Diablo 2 was. I don’t even like games that much, but I loved D2. You, Jay, sure made the water easy to get into… but no one will stay in. I’m looking to the life raft to jump ship with fu-cking tears in my eyes (metaphorically speaking). So you, Jay and your dumb *** team…. how could you do this? AND HOW can you do this all while patting yourself so proudly on your backs?

      Thousands of years ago the greeks were speaking a simple word and knew of a simple destructive mistake that had taken down men and even entire empires: “Hubris”. Get ready for the release of a terrible flop all because of it, because of a team that cannot accept criticism. Holding onto stubborn evasions of diablo 2 with white knuckled grasp, all in effort to avoid everything that made diablo 2 great.

  15. Getting rid of runes as items is a good thing, Its a shame they removed the scaling though.
    The UI is the most terrible thing I have ever seen. Its an abomination that needs to be put down.

  16. I voted “dislike”, not because I think it needs fixes, but rather because I was looking forward to my skills being effected by drops. I was really hoping to experience the altered skills in somewhat of a random order as determined by what runes dropped, rather than have blizz lay them out for me in a predetermined order.

    I imagined myself and some friends all playing the game, some of us being the same classes as each other, but we would still have slightly different skills based on what runes we found.  Now we’re all going to unlock everything at the same time =( 

    • I agree with you though this would mean:
      – that runes drop frequently enough
      – bind on pickup runes 

      • Yeah, there’s certainly shades of grey that I’d be willing to accept.   For example, I could enjoy the new system alot more if they simply made it so that runes unlock in different orders for different people, determined randomly.

        Or, maybe instead a player could choose to unlock which ever one they wanted, and would have to wait until the next level marker to unlock a second. 

      •   @koko

         Those things could be avoided by making them drop as minor runes (either class specific or not), which you could use to unlock the skill runes for each skill, with each level needing more runes, 1 rune for lvl 6, 3 for the next one, 6 for the 3rd, 9 for the 4th and 12 for teh 5th (you combine them into  one like gems in D2)… being consumable you wouldn’t keep them in your inventory for very long either… and you could choose which skills to rune first…
         
         And obviously you’d be able to choose which rune effect you unlock first, none of this unlocking them in a fixed order thing. 

  17. i like the new system, old runestone system seemed a lot like gemstones in d2, where you would collect and collect and need to put them in the cube if you had some flawless to make perfect etc…im kinda like you flux, the more i get used to the UI the more i dont mind it.  yea it is a hassle to scroll back and forth but once you do it enough you will memorize where everything is…and most people on these forums will be playing enough that it will become second nature in no time at all.  We’ll see if they change it up, and if/when they do i’m sure there will be trolling about that as well  😀

  18. I don’t freaking care at this point of time.

    RELEASE THE GAME! :mrgreen:

  19. can i vote,

    i hate it cause i am not in beta?

    • woo, am I wrong in saying its been a while since you last spoke here? away in regenerative torpor?;) anyway, walcome back. 

      • its true it has been awhile since i posted but i keep checking in during my breaks. have been slammed at work the last few months, they got me working 70 hour weeks now lol. i think my kids forgot who i am

  20. Seems every time I read one of these posts about a poll on the site, the analysis of the previous poll is always expressing surprise at how so few people actually responded strongly negative – funny that! 🙂

  21. Yep, the new system is way cool. However, sometimes my wizards get frustrated zapping things at a distance and want to hack them to bits with an axe. The new UI doesn’t allow me to do that. I can’t switch my primary attack to a standard weapon attack as far as I can tell. 

  22. there were some really good pros and cons in this thread 

    diablo dot incgamers dot com/forums/showthread.php?822614-Hate-new-(foced)-rune-allotment-system-(please-convince-me-otherwise) 

  23. I am indifferent to the design choices ; its not like i ever had a taste to either ; however, i would have liked some Gear indipendanat progression.
    I also liked the Interface and Design of the old Skill Panel WAY better, it was slim simple and smart, the old runes could be easily told apart ;  you could  refer to them with the color  like ; magic missile red / crimson. now all of them look the same and they do not even have a name attached ; so you say that orange one with the swirls …

    I only hate that they waste so much time with fixxing problems they brought upon themself ; I also think that no human being as stupid as Blizzard pretends, even total noobs who never touched a Action game can identify patterns strengths / weaknesses of skills by trial and error. This new trend of pigeonhole guidance and instant gratification for EVERYONE is really an instult to my intelligence, its not like you can interest your Mom or GF into playing Diablo 3 just because you get instant gratificication for everything you do if the game itself is just Bling but totally shallow , kinda like a micheal bay movie …

    But we`ll see i constrain my final judgement until endgame.

  24. Instead of chasing rare runes that customiza your character, now get all the players the same runes automagically at level up.

    Blizzard dumbs D3 down again, someone who is surprised? We have already Automagic state placement, capped skill levels, and more. Great for casual gamers, young children and people who want their reward right away, without having to work for it.

    Anyone who seriously believes that the D3 will keep it interesting for as long as D2 did when Blizzard simplifies and streames any mechanics in the game step by step?

    • i sort of agree. However, they can always patch afterwards.  You mention D2.  It’s skill system was revised a few times wasn’t it?  (I know at least once with synergies)   And with the RMAH, Blizz will be motivated big time to fix any perceived short comings to keep players in the game. 
      We shall see..

  25. I’m fine with the system. I love it in some ways. The UI could use a bit of refining, but that will come. The most exciting aspect is that you have a real tangible incentive to play all the way through to the end of Hell. No Diablo game has ever had that kind of dynamic before. (I don’t consider putting points into skills I already have and stacking VIT as quite the same experience.)

  26. The same way as I’ve felt about the majority of D3 news since it was announced: Nothing much. It’s all good and well discussing this stuff, but getting your panties in a twist over systems where you don’t know how they’ll pan out come middle and end-game is a little retarded.

  27. only 8% hate the new system? Only 8% have access to the beta

    • Um, I have access to the beta and I really like the new system.  It is actually quite good and a lot of fun compared to the old, only the interface is bad but the system itself isn’t a problem

  28. Having the beta I had to vote on hating the system as well. Seriously, there is no ability to customize at all. Every single person is going to be using the best build for each character and the shitty part is that if you try a new build and it isn’t top notch you only have to wait 15 seconds to go back to what ever cookie cutter build is being used. This is just stupid, there’s no point in ever creating more than 1 character of each class. Mass sales, user drop off, and then Blizzard won’t have to waste more time and money keeping the game fresh.  

  29. It’s all fine and dandy now. So just release the damn thing!

  30. I also suggested something completely funky – Why not use toe old rune graphics/symbols instead of the new bland symbols currently in the UI. A little color would lighten up the whole thing a bit and I think it’s easier to reference runed skills by their rune/color in descriptions “My barb uses the white/alabaster cleave skill”

  31. The new UI is painful to use and horrible to navigate.    I must admit I really like the idea of runestones and having to find things in order to progress or being forced into other builds because you couldn’t a certain color or level.    So I am not still a 100% on board with the new system but it does make it easy to build characters which is so/so.  

  32. I would like the system a lot more if runes were still items, but if they were consumable, and using one would allow you to unlock 1 rune effect for 1 skill. if they were rare enough, there wouldn’t be a “deadzone” because you would be excited to find one even if you were level 50 or whatever (unless you paid cash for them blahh)

  33. “post moved” my apologies

  34. Here’s a rough history of the rune system’s progression and some brief thoughts of mine:

    The first rune stone system: Specific runes drop at various levels 1-7. A level 7 rune would feature the maximum amount of modification for the particular skill of choice. One thing that was unclear to me would be if it were possible to combine like runes to create a higher level rune in the same manner that the gem system is handled. That would be the easiest way to implement this type of rune system. A problem with this system is that the market would eventually become over saturated and reduces the importance of this item as a drop – a potential balancing issue.

    The second rune stone system: Very similar to the first with one major change: attunement to skills. This system, in my opinion, was worse than the first because it added a major storage space issue. Stacking of runes is not possible because the developer’s hopes were to add random properties to the runes which would make them unique – a storage and balancing nightmare.

    Third: The revamp into the “skill runes” system. It takes runes out of the item pool and becomes a non-issue for storage and something slightly easier to balance. It also allows for a sense of freshness to your character while leveling all the way from clvl 1-60. A counter argument to this is that it is also restricting in the sense that you are force fed which rune is enabled and when.

    My biggest grief about the new system is in its implementation and GUI. It’s very clunky, counter intuitive, and seemingly built within a console mindset. There is no reason why the old GUI could not have been kept with some very minor modifications. It would still allow for the viewing of all skills in one easy to read page. I am sure there are others who post here or on Blizzard’s forums with some mock ups of how to do this while maintaining a sense of GUI uniformity. As of now, it also seems very frustrating trying to allocate skills to/from the action bar even when “elective” mode is enabled.

    Not (yet) being selected to be a part of the beta to test these various changes doesn’t help how I think about these issues but I do hope that this is not the final version of this interface and Blizzard will work their magic in the end.

  35. It’s disturbing the way Blizzard keep dumbing this game down, taking away customization choices and encourage minimum social interactions in the name of casuals.

    Aside from the static character model (this is 2012 and we don’t even get to change our character’s hair color). Auto stat and auto gaining skill/runes, the only thing differenciating you from another player is your equipment. And even that isn’t that interesting.

    “Oh you got 100 more strength on your Barbarian?” Whoopee doo! 

    Maybe they should just drop all pretenses and let us choose gear from a preset number of equipment, so grandma won’t have to worry about putting on the wrong weapon because stats are too complicated for her.

  36. A bit of a mixed view from the BETA testers….havent had a chance so cant comment completely. I think some beta testers seemed happy with the changes….for no reason other than they got to try them out. im sure level 1-13 were alot more fun in the beta…..especially if you have played it alot.
    I dont really mind the runes not being drops, i understand the inventory issues, my concern is the lack of levelling, i liked that the runes got stronger throughout the game, the skills also looked ..MORE AWESOME…(blizz speak)….i have read alot of suggestions for still being able to level te runes in some way, via drops..similar to a page of training or gems …you might need to find 5/10 items to be able to upgrade a particular rune. I would like some mechanic to be able to upgrade them.
     
    …i mean if you get a sword at level 6…..your not going to be using it at level 60, so if you get a rune at level 6…..wouldnt you like to be able to upgrade it by level 60
     
     

  37. It’s good but could be better; some things I don’t like:

    – only 15 seconds cooldown on skills mean you are absolutely not committing with your build. 
    – everyone in forced in the same path with rune unlocking.
    – no rune ranks. 

  38. I wonder how they can make d3 even more casual. Well I’m sure Jay has some more tricks up his sleeve. Thank god there’s Path Of Exile.

  39. Next piece of info we get “Congratulations! We removed all but three different levels of gems”. We felt it would be too distracting from killing to keep looking out for drops. 😈

  40. As far as i can tell you cant “swap” skills by right clicking them and moving them around any more like you could in patch 12  with either mode on. as well the whole way you go through to pick skills for what button now is in my opinion horrible and a time waster compared to patch 12 (yes i’ve played both) and its just seems like its dumbing the game down more for people who have no idea how to kill / survive at the same time , while wasting more time for those who arn’t as airheaded.
    So if u have 1 skill on mouse 1 and a another skill on say button 2 , but you want to switch you have to wait 30 seconds for each skill swap to get them where you want them instead of simply right click and move or drag and move. this is the part that really frustrates me.

  41. Flux can you please make another poll which specifically asks how people feel about runes being removed and the linear progression that is now diablo 3.
    i feel very surprised by this poll and i think either ppl who voted that they like it must not be in the beta and are still under the charm of seeing runed abilities, or they did not undersstand the poll…
    the new system really sucks. it makes the game very bland and boring by removing unorthadox builds in low levels.

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