Unhallowed Essence Overpowered? Spin2Win Underpowered?

Everyone is Spin2Win now.

Everyone is Spin2Win now.

Though there was much freaking out back when Patch 2.2 went live with the “now you see it; now you don’t” last minute removal of Mortick’s Brace, time seems to have proven Blizzard’s point. Barbs using the Spin2Win build are everywhere, they dominate the GR leaderboards, and if you ask any Barb player how gimped they feel over the lack of an ideal BiS item in the Bracer slot, they just laugh.

Everyone agrees, right? It’s obvious. Or not… Unhallowed Essence Overpowered? Spin2Win Underpowered?

I play all the classes, fairly evenly now actually… I recently set out to try the new UE set because it had all the “buzz” surrounding it, and frankly I can see why. I mean sweet merciful crap.

So if I have this right the set gives you a base 20% damage just for showing up provided monsters aren’t around. This seems to be multiplicative. Then for every 1 point of discipline you get a 15% increase to generators and multishot. So basically (I could be wrong here) the set is giving you (with max discipline)

  • 81 * 15 *1.2 = 1458% damage boost!??????
  • Which would be fine except it says “generators”, so both chakram and elemental arrow are included given krider or spines of seething hatred. Plus this is without even being able to test deadmans as it’s time locked behind seasonal, but it seems like it DOUBLES the damage of this set.

    I mean it’s complete madness, my multishot is regularly hitting the entire screen for 1.2-1.4 billion damage while charkam is hitting at a “weak” 600 million. I thought the new Tal’s changes were amazing, but my wizard looks like a total freaking chump in comparison.

    I know the IK set in its original 500% incarnation was crazy OP with mortics, but after watching my DH just look at stuff in GR40 and have it topple over, I have to wonder what the devs consider to be “OP”. According to Wyatt it was decided a week before that mortics was overperforming, despite the entire PTR having pages of feedback on the subject.

    But UE is balanced?
    Grimiku: To understand why Unhallowed Essence wasn’t changed, I think it’s first important to clarify why we decided to hold off on releasing Mortick’s Brace. Here’s the original post from Nevalistis:

    “In summary, though, we made the decision to remove Mortick’s Brace from 2.2.0 about a week prior to the release of the patch. With their removal, we believe each class should be within a couple Greater Rift levels of one another (which would not have been the case if the item had gone live). This is in line with one of our goals for the patch, which was for each class to have two or three competitive builds capable of Greater Rift 50+.”

    Wyatt Cheng goes a bit more in depth on this decision (and the possible future of this item) in a recent(ish) video interview with Ziggy D, and you can jump straight to that discussion here @ 3:01.

    Getting back on topic, while Unhallowed Essence is indeed very powerful, and fun to play, it wasn’t and currently isn’t creating a large disparity on the Solo Great Rift Leaderboards like Mortick’s Brace, which is why it wasn’t changed or removed. Even so, we’ll make sure to pass along your feedback about this particular set to our development team.

    Lest accusations of thread-surrection derail us… yes the OP above is two weeks old, before people really knew how powerful Spin2Win was, but thread has stayed active that whole time, with plenty of people still griping about the lack of Mortick’s Brace. And the Blue reply was made just yesterday evening, so it’s still a current thing.

    And no, the OP’s argument isn’t a good one since as the Blue points out, the UE set is not OP compared to the other DH sets. One could certainly argue that six-piece set bonuses are way too good, but that’s how gearing works in RoS at this point, and every class benefits from it. Ironically for the OP, the better argument would have been to hit at the flaws in the UE set design, except that the Spin2Win build has the same problem; it’s too powerful for how easy it is to play.

    The DH’s Unhallowed Essence set requires very little of the player to succeed. 1) Players must maintain their distance in order to keep the 4p set bonus active (and staying back synergizes perfectly with Steady Aim, Zei’s, and not dying), and 2) players must alternate a Generator with Multishot to manage their Resource (and this synergizes perfectly with UE’s buff to Generator damage, Taeguk’s, and Focus/Restraint.) Not all UE DHs use all those items/tactics, but you can clearly see the set was designed to work as it does, and while it’s comparable in power, it’s much easier to use than Marauder’s or the awesome new Natalya’s.

    So what do you guys think? Is anyone still willing to argue that Barbs were ruined by the removal of an obvious BiS legendary bracer? And do you guys agree that there’s a common problem with Spin2Win Barbs and UE DHs… that both are too powerful for the relative ease/simplicity of their gearing and play style?


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    1. I think it would be cool if it made Multishot consume a bit of discipline instead of Hatred per shot, so that you’re still using Primaries (not Kridershot/Chakrams) to generate discipline instead.

    2. I think it would be super ultra amazing, if every single other class had that EXACT same power that DH’s seem to constantly get, repeatedly, since release. The amount of oral service that Blizzard gives its star class is just sickening. Especially for those of us who don’t even like it.

      • Release of what?

        Demon Hunters were the strongest class pre-RoS precisely until Nether Tentacles was nerfed into oblivion, then they were universally considered the weakest class for the entirety of Vanilla with Barbs EASILY being the strongest class.

        Even on RoS launch, they were not particularly good. It wasn’t until Marauder had the senty internal cooldown removed that the they became the dps king.

        The new Rainment and Tal Rashas are getting really close to DH dps levels, so it’s getting more and more balanced with each patch.

        But to say DH has been “the star class” since release is laughably ignorant.

        • Right. So laughably ignorant, that DH’s all throughout vanilla UNTIL the precious nether tentacles got nerfed, were the only class remotely capable of reliably and successfully farming Inferno. Sorry, but what were you being wrong about again? And they “became the DPS king”…wait, what other class (besides barbs now) were DPS kings? oh that’s right. None. Just DH’s. DH’s get to repeatedly be DPS kings. And you’re arguing that for some reason.

          • Just for the sake of history accuracy:

            Diablo 3 released on May 15, 2012. DH were the best for entering inferno and farming at that point. Bugged Nether Tentacles certainly helped. On June 19, 2012, 1.0.3 was released. Nether Tentacles got fixed. In addition, the damage of enemies in Inferno was also substantially decreased, making it much easier for other classes comfortably play in Inferno. By this point, Barbarian WW builds were already being theorycrafted. That’s 39 days of clear DH dominance in Vanilla. After that, Wiz and Barbs started pulling ahead. The inclusion of Monster Power in Patch 1.0.5 in October 16 2012 actually started to put DH behind, and they stayed near the bottom for the rest of Vanilla. Close to two years.

            Reaper of Souls was released on March 25, 2014. At RoS release, WD were actually considered overpowered. Pet builds were relatively easy to gear for T6 entry and Jade was ahead of everything else. After some buffs post release, Crusaders began to be on par, and arguably ahead of Witch Doctors as well geared stutter step shotgun Crusaders could set off Exploding Palms before Jade could even land Haunts. Mara DH were good, but not great at this point as the only end game was T6 speed clears, and DH had ramp up time before they could deal damage. In fast groups, an elite pack could be dead before your sentries started firing. WD and Crusaders were more or less even in power for the next five months.

            It wasn’t until Patch 2.1 on the 26th of August 2014 that DH became the top dps spot that they are now. They have been there for the past eight months. Wizards, however, have received major buffs in 2.2 and you see many DH/Wiz/WD/Crus high level Grift groups. I would say that makes Wizards competitive. Perhaps not kings, but competitive. Since this season is scheduled to last roughly 4 months, we can project Wizards to enjoy their top spot for a decent while.

            And if you want to be really technical, Monks were actually the group DPS kings of at RoS launch until Exploding Palm got reworked in Patch 2.1. EP did more damage than anything else when you geared for it, and every efficient group wanted a pull/palm monk in their party. Many people still want pull/palm monks for Grift speed clears.

            I think DH are a bit farther ahead than other classes, and perma-fear WD are exacerbating that fact as DH squishiness never comes in to play. That, and just about everything one-shots dps regardless of class at Grift 60+, so DH again does not come in to play because everyone is squishy at that level.

            So there you have it, every class has more or less got to be top dog, some for longer than others.

            • The fact that Spin2Win barbs were by far the fastest/strongest class for like a year of D3v is kind of amazing in retrospect. How slow the devs were with patches and item fixes and improvements.

              We can truly never repay Jay Wilson for his work in this field.

    3. Whole lot easier to die as a DH = balance.

    4. Well you see, the removal of Mortik’s is balanced by the fact that it isn’t a DH item, and DHs doing billions of damage a second while having a snack is balanced by the fact it’s a DH.

      Now try being a Wizard. You either spam buttons original Sunwuko style or do about nothing.

      • If you are spamming Tal Rasha, you are doing it wrong.

        It’s actually pretty elegant, you have a rotation and fire spells at appropriate times to maximize it. It just takes some practice.

    5. What’s wrong with things being “easy” to play? Struggling against clunky mechanics isn’t fun.

      I actually like the UE set even though I’m not thrilled with how all builds require sets now. It’s the first time I’ve actually enjoyed playing a Demon Hunter. Sentries feel clunky. Aiming RoV while strafing does too. Don’t even get me started on how much I hate the new Slow Time set on the Wizard. The UE set is the closest the game has felt to Diablo 2 to me which is a good thing!

      • I support some sets or play styles being easy to use. But it seems obvious to me that power should have some relationship to skill or tactics. The best/most powerful builds should require specialized gear to enable and superior tactics to make them work even better.

        Which is why I’ve come to really dislike the UE set and build. When the “skill” to play a build is “stand at the edge of the screen and alternate right/left click” that’s bullshit. Happily, Nat’s is 1000x more fun to play and also more powerful, so I can live with that.

    6. I dont like spin2win barbs. And I dont care about Mortick’s. The bracers were to strong to stay like that. But I’m disappointed of the Huge nerf of IK set. They force all barbs to play spin2win, if they want to go higher in GR’s. I know 6th piece bonus on IK was to OP, but excuse me from 500% to 100%? And IK Boulder breaker CoA from 75-100% down to 45-60%. Good job Blizz. Now all we have here is spin2win balerinas and Raekor running idiots all over the screen. It’s very entertaining!

    7. Hello, i’m a barb and i’m an addict.

      Addicted to spinning!
      Omg rly?!

      With some repetition, I died 2-3 days ago, p199, 12h later i’m running a new barb and it took “ages” to get some pants to have the Wastes set complete, which i hadn’t so far.
      Imho the 6p bonus to Wastes is insane all by itself. I couldn’t have imagined it.
      I can practically facepalmroll T6.
      I love it.
      But i can’t see a thing b/c of all the tornados.

      Feat. Taeguk, Pain Enhancer and Gogok’s + 2p IK set = optional for higher grifts, (WotB) instead of Insanity, Striding Giants rune (50% dmg red.), Call of the Ancients, Together as One rune (50% dmg red.) not to forget the Wastes bonus to Whirlwind (40% dmg red.).
      This to me sounds something like 140% damage reduction.? and I guess with Follower 2x Unity, that would make 190% dmg reduction.?

      Thanks to Taeguk, Gogok and Pain Enhancer = x% plus to MS, Attack Speed and CD red. + I use Forced March = flying around the map, leaving nothing but devastation, death and suffering behind me.
      Did I mention that I love it?

      Mortick’s Bracers? Who needs them?
      But it’s practically just using Whirlwind. Nothing but.
      It’s a dream come true and I never felt so fast and powerfull ever.
      Now I’m p283
      But it’s just using Whirlwind.
      It’s kinda boring.

      • Your damage reduction math is not entierly correct. All damage reduction is multiplicative, so you have 1 – 0.5*0.5*0.6 = 0.85 = 85% damage reduction. Adding Unity you get another 50% resulting in 92.5% damage reduction.

    8. On another note, Flux loves DH.
      And because Blizzard loves Flux, they give all the love to DH.
      But that’s Jay Wilson’s fault because he killed the Barb.

    9. I thought Flux loved Wizards best..

      But yeah, all new sets need nerfing. The game should still be a challenge on T6 and grift 50+ shouldn’t be so easy…

    10. Monks and WDs until the end of time!

    11. I’ve never reached a Grift 50 yet, probably because the jewelry I find rolls so bad. I can never get CC, CD and a socket.

    12. The game is a hack and slash, Diablo II never had the complexity that this game has become. Just give me a sword, two swords or a shield and let me go kill stuff. I don’t need broken mechanics of +10000% damage +4000% lightning missle destroyer damage. I just want to kill without someone crying about my two hander, that is the length of your body killed and you in one hit. Let’s go outside and put a dead animal up and I’ll show you what the two hander can do. I don’t need minus this because this is so ++

    13. i main a barb (spin) and a dh (ue) ….from my personal experience…barb wins all the way…. +/- equivalent gear (my ancient krider cold use max discpline but it was a pre 2.2) and my ancient ik boulder is bad…. it barely replaced my non ancient one !!barb dont care about nothing..no reflect damage (just finished a 48 grift PACKED with trash mob but 2yellow and one blue all reflect… it was a fail @@)barb is fast and you can skip lots of mobs…On dh it can come and bites you in the ass!! Even if barb takes forever to clear the grift boss, i farm way way way faster and never fail with the barb !!! Dh wins @ grift boss its so funny to see the grift boss just melt !!! Mortiks bracer….euh ok yeah right now….MASSIVE Healing,,,50% damage increase and 50% damage redution ….lol way way way op….And to be honest even with one skill on it…. it would be really op (but ill take it 🙂

      • oh and flux who like to makes fun of us softcore character ( died to dc and lag on softcore…srry harcore is not for me) fully buffed im close to 90 millions toughness on barb…

        i cleared a 51 on barb in 13:23 and missed a 50 on the dh by 5 second (dosnt count but just to compare) where barb really shine , is how easy it is …in ranking to make the top 1000 you have to clear a 51!!So ue more powerfull (even if i havnt beated my barb yet), but man barb is so easy mode….

    14. People still play this game? Lol.

      • People who don’t play this game make a point to browse to the site that talks about this game they don’t think anyone plays, then reads an article, then makes a point to comment on it about how nobody plays it and then lols?

    15. SInce the UE set isent even close to the best GR set for DHs i’d say its fine. If it was both the easiest playstyle and the best for GR progress then it would problably be in need of a nerf but Natalyas is clearly better if you look at the leaderboards so i think its fine, and spin2win is fine too. Not every build has to be complicated or intensive to play. Buffing the IK set a bot would be nice to give barbs some more options, and buffing/changing a lot of sets for other classes a bit would be good.

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