Travis Day on the Non-Value of Magic Find in Reaper of Souls


As we discussed recently, the drop rates and general difficulty of Reaper of Souls changed greatly in the recent patch, with a huge reduction in the drop rate of Legendary and Set items. This is part of the overall testing and isn’t likely to be the permanent state of things, as Reaper of Souls dev and main item guy Travis Day shared in a couple of long posts about the evolution of Magic Find in Reaper of Souls.

Rewards per difficulty are still something we are tuning. I’ll remind everyone that the purpose of Beta and PTR cycles is for us to test things, that means you will see things that may or may not be final. In the case of difficulty settings being rewarding we are still discussing and making changes to that system so what exists isn’t necessarily final. (Nor is anything until the game has actually shipped).

On the topic of people thinking MF is an awesome way to get loot! Well here’s a different way to look at it, getting better gear is going to get you items faster. I would rather you get gear faster because you are more powerful and therefore murdering hordes of strong enemies faster, not because there is a stat that secretly is the most important thing in the game but doesn’t feel good because you have to sacrifice real power for it.

Strongly disagree on Travis’ “doesn’t feel good” opinion there. I remain disappointed that the devs never seem to “get” what Magic Find should be (in my opinion). Magic Find *should* be a choice. A player should be able to choose to gear a bit differently, to give up some potential destructive power or survival ability, in order to boost their MF. It’s an option, and needs to be balanced in return rates, but more choices are good, IMHO.

Currently in RoS there’s no choice on how you should play. Now, the only useful goal of gear is to boost survival and destruction, since the rewards (exp, gold, items) come entirely from killing as fast as possible, on higher difficulty levels. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, and it’s how most RPGs have always worked (Diablo I included), but it removes a lot of potential variety from the play experience.

Flux wants MagicFindSkin!

Flux wants MagicFindSkin!

In Reaper of Souls the devs have done a nice job rebalancing the combat engine so that DPS + DiabloWikilife steal (plus allres and defense) isn’t the only recipe for high end success. You need more varied defensive powers, including DiabloWikiregen and various forms of DiabloWikiLife per Hit, and you need to use more DiabloWikicrowd control skills and tactics. There are more ways to up your killing speed too; it’s not purely about DPS anymore. Characters might get more benefit from reducing DiabloWikicooldown, cutting resource costs, specializing in crushing blow, upping their splash damage, boosting damage to specific skills, etc, rather than just trying to squeeze out a few more numbers on their DPS.

Those are all good changes and the gameplay in RoS is much more fun than it’s ever been in D3. But I still would like to see a similar reward structure in item finding, with the ability to make choices to improve my item finds. Since the patch, item upgrading feels very difficult and grindy. The only goal now is to try to kill faster and try to survive on a higher difficulty with hope that the tiny improvement in legendary drop rates will RNG you.

Rares are boring now; they drop very frequently and can also be gambled cheaply, and since there are only a few useful mods for each item type and limited primary affix slots, level 70 characters quickly assemble a kit that’s 95% as good as it’s ever going to be (from Rares alone). The RoS item excitement comes from finding legendaries, but those now drop very rarely, at a drop rate that’s almost impossible to boost via Magic Find. Legs can’t be gambled, and they hardly ever fall out of goodie bags anymore (which can no longer be gambled either), and there aren’t any bosses with a noticeably improved legendary drop rate. In RoS you can find a lot of legendary crafting recipes, which are fun except that they require insane quantities of materials (which are all DiabloWikiBoA), including legendary mats that are as hard to find as legendaries themselves.

Obviously we’re still in beta testing, and I think the devs have done great work improving the overall play experience and combat and game features… I just hope they can put similar improvement into the economy and item game.

Click though for Travis Day’s whole lengthy post:

It’s been a while, I’ve been off in Treasure Goblin land trying to get Reaper of Souls into shape. I wanted to stop by to give everyone some insight into what we are doing with Magic Find. For those of you who have heard me talk on the topic before you are probably already aware that MF is something we haven’t been thrilled with for quite a while. The idea of MF is great “GET ALL THE THINGS!” the reality of it however is incredibly problematic and leads to more negative effects than positive ones. Getting the reward rate of the game to a place we are happy with is a difficult tuning process and when we try to add MF into the equation is creates a bit of a dilemma, one that was already pointed out in the thread, how do you balance the game to feel good for someone with 0% MF vs someone with 300% MF. Ultimately the answer to that question is “You can’t” as such we have been trying to phase MF out of the game as much as possible.

In addition to changing exactly how MF interacts with finding items we also have dramatically reduced it’s existence throughout the game. Having strong characters already equates into finding more items, both by virtue of killing things faster and also by virtue of playing in higher difficulties, which still do have rewards associated with them. Because of all of this we decided to not only remove MF as an affix from gear but also change exactly how MF interacts with different item qualities. MF will apply 100% of its benefit to Blue items, 30% to Yellow items, and 10% to Legendary and Set items. This means someone with 300% MF will end up finding roughly 30% more Legendary and Set items than someone with 0%. The design intent is to make things like Topaz gems in helmets or the Nagel Ring an option without them actually being mandatory.

I hope this helps clear the air and as the expansion moves further and further into its development cycle I’ll start climbing out of this portal more frequently to answer questions.

Rewards per difficulty are still something we are tuning. I’ll remind everyone that the purpose of Beta and PTR cycles is for us to test things, that means you will see things that may or may not be final. In the case of difficulty settings being rewarding we are still discussing and making changes to that system so what exists isn’t necessarily final. (Nor is anything until the game has actually shipped).

On the topic of people thinking MF is an awesome way to get loot! Well here’s a different way to look at it, getting better gear is going to get you items faster. I would rather you get gear faster because you are more powerful and therefore murdering hordes of strong enemies faster, not because there is a stat that secretly is the most important thing in the game but doesn’t feel good because you have to sacrifice real power for it.

As to whether the drop rates for legendary items are right, time and data will tell. We know they were absolutely too high in the previous beta so we brought them down considerably to something that was within the realm of sanity. Again as part of a beta testing cycle we took them down to a place that is probably too low, but to find the right resting place we have to find where the bounds are, we were far too high, if this beta cycle is “far too low” than we have dramatically narrowed in on our ability to find “just right”.

Comments

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  1. Agreed.

    Choice is good.

    • You mean like whether or not to use the AH? I thought it would take at least until a month after release for the other shoe to drop. Its like xmas came early.

      • “I would rather you get gear faster because you are more powerful and therefore murdering hordes of strong enemies faster”

        How about both you dumb fucking piece of shit? Quit casualizing the game. Holy shit you are all retarded.

        This isn’t a response to you I just want my post at the top. The people creating Diablo 3 are the most subhuman scum of the earth imaginable.

      • I dont want a choice that is “take the lesser of two evils”. I wanna progress with my gear. Not with my MF stat – so i could find better gear, which i will use NEVER because it has no MF on it. You get that my friend?

        I agree with the developers on this one.

        • I have the perfect solution and it should satisfy everyone. Just change MF into a stat that only increases the chance to find items with MF.

        • “I agree with the developers on this one.”

          Interesting. Not really. When’s the last time you disagreed with ANYTHING they’ve said? My guess is you’re a mindless drone. They could change it back and forth and you would agree with both conflicting reasons given.

  2. Maybe this BIG costs for crafting are intented to see how well can we gear up from loot? After all it’s testing period and we’re gonna have more time later to check crafting.

  3. Blizzard is completely crazy as always. I’m not falling for their crap again. The removal of the Nephalem Trials and whatnot, Reaper of Souls will be half of what it should be already, I’m not buying it on launch and will be waiting for a discount price.

    Captcha: words of wisdom

    • Waiting for a discounted price, eh. So all it takes for you to play a game you don’t like, is make it $10 cheaper?

      Everyone has their price, I guess yours is $29.99.

  4. Flux, is this too easy if a solution? Whatever magic find you have, have it decrease your overall DPS. 100% magic find = 10% DPS decrease. 250% magic find = 25% DPS decrease. Leave it to the player to choose between killing speed or magic find.

  5. Hi,

    Your strong disagreement isn’t really one. To quote you Flux, you want the choice “to give up some potential destructive power or survival ability, in order to boost their MF”. The answer is further in your lines and in Travis’ . Increasing the difficulty level is the way to trade some killing power/survival for more chance to find items. Now if you prefer to a stat (called MF) in your gear replacing other important stats which costs you dps/toughness I would answser that it’s just matter of where the numbers are…

    I have to agree with Travis’ formulation as much as with yours as I think it’s the same.

    ++
    M

  6. When I look at the results of this vote about MF, it just seems fishy to me. And it occurred to me, perhaps a bunch of blizzard employees hit that vote up hard to skew the results in favor of their changes. I mean, who would actually vote away the choice of MF?

      • Me too.

        MF is a choice, but it’s not a very interesting one, because it doesn’t directly interface with gameplay. Tradeoffs between offense/defense are interesting. Tradeoffs between single target/AoE are interesting. Tradeoffs between flat damage reduction or spike damage reduction (not really available in D3, but would be dodge vs. armor) are interesting. Tradeoffs between “play the game worse but get a black box amount more of stuff” versus “play the game as best you can but get less stuff” just feel unsatisfying to me.

        Balancing overall difficulty against MF seems like the way to go in terms of risk/reward, rather than having to have an MF set and a non-MF set.

    • Me three.

      MF isn’t a choice. It’s a requirement for getting good loot.

      • That was largely true of D2 and is much more true about D3 in the current game, with MF all important and all-provided by Paragon levels. But at the risk of falling into the “perfect the enemy of the good” trap, I think ditching MF entirely just because the potentially great system had some issues in D2, and has been horribly-implemented thus far in D3, is a disappointing decision.

        • I alluded to this in the OP, with a mention of rewards/returns needing to be balanced. If you choose to go all DPS, then you’re going to rack up much more exp and gain whatever benefits you get from higher difficulty levels.

          If you go MF you’re choosing to get less exp and to miss out on the higher difficulty rewards, and you’re probably playing a more strategic game by finding ways to kill effectively even with lower quality gear.

          It’s obviously a complicated issue where rewards need to be balanced, party-game leechers need to be addressed, etc. But again, I don’t see dropping the whole variety-boosting system just because it’s hard to balance as a win. Don’t most fans spend most of their time criticizing D3 devs for simplifying the game and dropping features?

          e.g.: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10786718998

          • “If you go MF you’re choosing to get less exp and to miss out on the higher difficulty rewards, and you’re probably playing a more strategic game by finding ways to kill effectively even with lower quality gear.”

            Definitely agree.

          • The higher difficulty rewards are the same as higher MF. It’s the same thing, in a different system. Harder difficulties require different tactics and gearing (assuming you get rid of crushing blow and life steal). Making the monsters harder is better than making the characters weaker.

          • Flux, you make a valid point here:

            “If you go MF you’re choosing to get less exp and to miss out on the higher difficulty rewards, and you’re probably playing a more strategic game by finding ways to kill effectively even with lower quality gear.”

            I think the crux here, though, is that in Diablo 2, peoples’ builds were pretty static. Meaning, if you were running a Cold Sorceress, you needed items that boosted your Cold Spells or Cold Damage. As such, you were making a distinct sacrifice by removing some of your Cold boosting items in this example, in favor of Magic Find. In order to kill monsters and survive, you were using clever retreats, potions, battlefield positioning and other strategy. Killing monsters may have taken longer, but cunning in battle was being rewarded.

            Thus, in a game like D2, Magic Find WAS a sacrifice.

            However, in D3, even on the live game, you can find or craft halfway decent items with pretty good Magic Find WITH good offensive and defensive capabilities as well. Add to that 1) the ease of changing skills pretty much at one’s leisure, and 2) Paragon Levels having innate Magic Find grandfathered into it…in the end, you’re not sacrificing nearly as much power in D3 as you were in D2.

            I do agree with your claim, however, that Magic Find should be a choice and perhaps removing it outright may not be the answer. I’m sure there’s a reasonable way to implement it without cutting it, but still ensuring it’s not the one-way ticket to getting rained on by legendaries.

            Maybe getting Magic Find affixes on drops could reduce the chances that certain other affixes to occur on the same item, to further enhance the sacrifice you’d really be making in terms of power? That might be cool. You get a Magic Find item to drop, and the Magic Find affix will reduce the chance that Mainstat will roll, or Vitality, or hell, even both. Maybe have Magic Find on gear be more potent at higher levels than at lower ones?

        • They should have come up with an solution for MF, but as they seem to have no time they will scrap it? Wow huge by blizzard again.

          I loved gearing a MF char back in the D2 days and also did it at the beginnings of D3V. Why? To get more Legendaries and build up more chars with them.

          For me progression in RPG’s is:
          Build MF Char => MF Char helps finding good items => Good items help gearing different characters/builds => different characters/builds MUCH FUN = PROFIT

          I don’t see any sense of cutting MF out of the game. It makes NO f*** sense

          • Why don’t you just cut out the first two steps of the progression? There’s no reason why those steps need to exist.

          • @Ivan why dont you just cut out all steps of progression? theres no reason why those steps need to exist
            just premade characters with premade gear so you can just go smash monsters which, as stated many times by new blizzard developers, is what diablo is in essence and how they want you to play the game

          • You’re equating not forcing people to play cookie cutter farm builds for hours just so that they can play the classes/builds they actually want to, to premades and no gear progression whatsoever? What’s so wrong about farming gear w/ a class/build you actually enjoy? That’s a bad thing?

    • you guys need to get off the rock and come back to earth.

      • So, let me get this straight:

        You: Ask innocuous question
        Others: Respond honestly in good faith with arguments
        You: Everyone that disagrees with me smokes crack!

        • What did you expect from someone who thinks it’s more likely that Blizzard employees are skewing their own poll in their favor, than that there are people whose opinions differ from his? Rational thinking?

          Just make a mental note to ignore his posts in the future and move on.

    • I was against MF since Diablo 2 .. I always thought it’s stupid system..I always hated it in every game.. I always saw it more as penalty than reward..there is nothing to choose from..

      I for one Love removing MF altogether from the gear..

    • Add me to the list who voted for the removal of MF. By choosing MF you are sacrificing killing speed for bigger rewards (over time) per kill. As Manu said above, the same is accomplished by the difficulty system. The choice was simply shifted from the itemization, we lost nothing.

    • I don’t think Bliz is that bored as to sock puppet votes on individual game features. It’s not like much else in D3 is discernibly designed purely to appeal to popular sentiment, authentic or not.

      As the other replies demonstrate, there are many players who agree with Travis’ “doesn’t feel good” opinion about making gear choices re: Magic Find.

      While there were admittedly plenty of people from D2 who weren’t big fans of MF (I heard from lots of them after writing several huge strat guides about MF), it seems more disliked in D3. The problem, I think, is that D3 implemented MF so poorly. Draft version of this post I went into a whole breakdown of it and I’m not going to recreate it, but basically D3 failed at the “it’s a choice/added complexity/trade off.” D3’s MF was just another property tacked onto rares and legendary items that did nothing but add a bit more AH cost. There was no trade off and there were no Chance Guards/Goldwrap/Wealth type items that had huge MF at the obvious cost of DPS type stats, as D2’s best-designed MF gear did.

      I can easily understand arguments against MF as D3 did it, and if that makes you want it out of the game since you feel the current RoS devs would fuck it up again, then that’s a fair argument. That said, I am unsympathetic to most anti-MF arguments, as they seem to come from a PoV of “don’t want to think about gear.” I like the item game, the jigsaw puzzle of assembling gear. Some players don’t, or only like it when the goal is bigger DPS. And I find that boring and a removal of complexity and variety.

      • “The problem, I think, is that D3 implemented MF so poorly.”

        Wrong. It’s b/c they came up w/ a system that did what MF was supposed to do, only much better (Monster Power). D2’s MF wasn’t a real trade-off; it pigeon-holed certain builds/classes, it ham-strung gear choices, and most of the best raw power gear had copious amounts of MF, b/c the D2 devs realized that people wouldn’t wear the greatest gear if it didn’t have MF on it. MF never worked right, even in D2. And that’s why we didn’t want it in D3. Or D2 for that matter.

        • I agree that MF wasn’t really a trade-off in D2 either. I used Topazes in armors because the offensive stats the other gems provided were quite weak I could get more from actual items if needed. The next best thing to increase my drops was MF, so I went for it.

          Uniques were kinda the same story. When more offense would have been overkill then I went for MF. MF was never a choice in my opinion, it was a way to maximize your rewards after more offense wouldn’t have helped much.

      • “That said, I am unsympathetic to most anti-MF arguments, as they seem to come from a PoV of “don’t want to think about gear.””

        No, Flux, as you see in this thread, they come from the perspective that it’s NOT an interesting choice and to many (like me) it feels like a really stupid choice to try and make.

      • The best argument I’ve seen against MF is someone finds a great legendary but doesn’t use it because they don’t want to sacrifice their MF.

        • I know right?

          Someday I’ll get around to using all this great loot, probably some time after I’ve grown bored of the game because I found all the items!

    • Me as well, trading more difficulty for more magic items is what the DIFFICULTY slider is for. MF is lame, if it exists, people will be forced to use it for efficiency’s sake. I would rather work on my character’s combat efficiency than juggle some stat to make sure I am getting the maximum amount of loot.

  7. difficulty level aside from being harder also includes the ability to see more items via the inherent increases in item finding. Fine with that. Always hated the mf affix on gear.

  8. I strongly disagree with your disagreement. While it is true magic find could be a choice it is never a fun choice.

    A core idea behind an RPG (even an ARPG) is that you grow in power and use that power to overcome new challenges. A “choice”, however balanced, of “I’m weak but extremely lucky” goes counter to that core idea.

    Who’s that?
    That’s Thor and he wield the mightiest hammer in the universe.
    Wow, Thor is cool.

    Who’s that?
    That’s Bob. He wields a pointy stick that hits like a wet noodle. But is is a magic noodle and it make Bob a lucky S.O.B. and after many noodle lashings he always gets the best gear.
    Wow, Bob is … hey, where did Thor go again?

  9. MF or not, my issue is that often enough, when Blizzard decides what’s “best” for the players and community, they end up backtracking on it. It makes it hard to take them seriously sometimes.

  10. I’m just confused because D2 had Magic Find and it seemed to work fine.

    • But it didn’t work. Magic find in D2 was horrible. You’d stack MF on a sorc that could kill regardless of gear. You’d run Pindle or Meph or Baal until your eyes bled. Then, miracle of miracles, that MF finally paid off and Windforce dropped…

      …and you would store it on a mule because (1) Amazons sucked at MF and (2) even if you wanted to do boss run on your Amazon, you would only run with MF gear.

      Stacking MF to find gear that you’d never use because it didn’t have MF was broken broken broken.

  11. Travis Day on Magic Find

    “we were far too high”

  12. I dont mind MF being removed. While it might be interesting in theory, I dont think it adds much to a game in practice.

    MF is a good reward mechanism for higher difficulties, player behaviour incentives (death penalty goddammit Blizzard) etc. So I wonder if MF from such things (or thing, since it would only be the difficulty slider currently) will also be affected.

  13. The only MF chars that existed were the ones that didn’t have to sacrifice power to do it. The notion of losing power in order to maximize your return when playing is laughable and goes against the whole concept of D3. The flux soapbox gets old; MF doesn’t add choice, it’s just a stat that makes your character weaker than he/she should be.

  14. Good freaking riddance, MF. You will not be missed. Monster Power was the death knell, the point where you realized just how stupid the MF system really was. Of course, they need to change Topazes; there is NO reason to use them in helms now. Of course, they need to overhaul the gems, anyway.

  15. ok, all you guys go run
    T-6 with your OP gears and Flux and I will do master with MF stuff because we could have or make the choice to use it.
    A good example of even more misunderstanding of how to really develop a better game for everyone to choose, not bliz, on how each of us wants to play.
    They have a lot more screwed up stuff to really have to worry about MF right now.

  16. RoS, reaping 1 game feature/mechanic at a time.

    RIP

  17. D3 1.08 aside, MF gearing has never felt like a choice to me in any game I’ve played that had it. Not using MF has made me feel super gimpy in virtually every ARPG/Hack n’ Slash/whateverthesegames are that I’ve played, PoE included.

    Anyway, as others have already mentioned, MP does what MF does, only it’s better.

  18. There are lots of problems with MF.

    I don’t like MF on gear. This invites gear swapping and/or hoarding gear sets to switch to on kill. It’s the whole reason Nephalem Valor was implemented. And then the whole reason the Paragon 1.0 system was implemented.

    I do however think MF can be awarded for things like playing multiplayer, or higher difficulty levels. (Right now there’s no indication that playing above Normal is worth it at all, at least on the PTR. Your kill speed is reduced more than any gains you get.)

    I agree with ideas in other comments about how the point is for you to get stronger and stronger, not be a lucky guy with wet noodle dps. It’s also not fair in multiplayer, even if your MF is shared to your party, that only matters if your party members care about MF more than DPS.

    But I do think this would be a good time to implement charms. If you’re trading inventory space for MF, that would be a much better trade than gear choice.

    I also think MF should still be rewarded for paragon levels. It was the original purpose of paragon in the first place, removing it feels silly.

    The way it is now, it’s like there’s two sets of leveling to do. Paragon 2.0 is like D2, with a little bit of point picking. But you don’t get to do that until you do 1-60 first which has no point picking but just skills given to you as you level. Not that 1-60 takes very long anymore at all. With level-adjusted enemies and the high killing speed on normal, even a little bit of xp boosting gear and you’ll almost power level yourself.

    Anyway, back to MF. MF is far and above the most ‘satisfying’ stat to have. Everyone hates RNG, and getting the chance to fight against it is something everyone likes. Seeing the shiny orange text more often than before is satisfying. And killing monsters is satisfying but the more you cut through the monsters like paper, the less satisfying it is. Essentially the higher your kill speed, the less satisfying the grind is.

    So if the ONLY way to increase your drop rate is to increase your killing speed, that’s bad.

    So again, charms, or paragon, and/or the bonuses for higher difficulties. But no MF on gear. Just flat-out remove it as a stat. Not even on legendaries. There should be not even a single piece of gear with it or some people are going to obsess over getting it.

    • It’s really good for progression also. As you slowly get better gear, you begin to push the boundaries of what you can accomplish. As opposed to sitting in the lowest difficulty for 12 months, face-rolling content, then one day jacking it up and face-rolling the game.

  19. It is good to see someone has different opinions. But just like me who don’t like lose real power life toughess or DPS in order to get some MF, look at the vote on the main page of incgamer, 35% of players agree that MF should be removed entirely.
    Yes maybe some players like to “have an option” between “real power” and MF. But most of players, they don’t like giving up power for MF but they also wanted more drops, so here came the MF Swap. The dev team choose to meet most of player’s requirement, removing MF is a good start!

  20. im not sure what was so wrong with having one set for mf runs and other for exp runs in d2, did it take so much effort?
    d3 exp and mf runs got combined – its generally exp= go 5 valor, items= go highest density and even then diffrences are not so vast
    paragon 100 made mf obsolete but they just totally missed a chance to reintriduce it in expansionm
    better gear=faster exp and efficiency, more mf= more item drops – how is it not a choice?
    anyway, in their crusade to streamline experience and show everyone how to play it proper, game got another of its base features removed
    im now literally waiting for them to rework legendary drop system so instead of items there are dropping legendary tokens every, lets say 1000 mobs (to remove rng cause its not fun for anyone, k?) so theres a counter under your minimap when next shard gonna drop, then you go to a vendor and buy a legendary you want (rng is making ppl uncomfortable and depressed, they are well known for caring about our mental health)
    it works fine in warcraft, im sure its gonna fit into new age diablo

    • You realize they’re adding more RNG gearing to WoW next xpac, and the WoW players are furious, calling it “Diablo like item crap.”

      • 1) i cant care less about what theyre adding to wow or not, if 5% movement speed or splash dmg gonna make any diffrence in world first *insert random orc* kill they gonna disable it
        2) your point is…?

  21. Oh look, another dev is using the same stupid statement. “Players just want to smassssssh!!!111”.

    The disconnect between the D3 devs and what makes a game fun is gargantuan. And growing by the day.

    • Did he really say that doe?

      Read carefully again.

      I feel the disconnect between you and what is fun is gargantuan.

    • Let’s talk fun. What was fun about MF? The choice to kill slower but potentially get better rewards for it? Maybe, but so far I haven’t seen a game where people routinely used MF like this.

      In D2 it was almost always about complimenting your offense to get even better rewards, not to reduce your offense. This is because offensive Gem bonuses generally sucked and you could afford one or two MF Uniques because other items were so powerful that you could get enough offense anyway.

      It could have been a trade-off, but personally I never used it like that, because why would I want to gimp myself? My killing speed would be slower for sure and possibly I wouldn’t get anything for it. Why would I ever do that? MF was always a fairly simple mathematical formula: more offense = overkill? Go MF. Not many people find math fun.

      What changed in D3 is that MF actually became a trade-off, because you need more offensive stats to be really effective than you needed in D2. What happened? Most people ignores MF, except for followers, where once again MF is not a trade-off at all. It turns out that giving up guaranteed rewards (at the very least XP and gold) for playing the lottery is not considered fun or a good trade-off by many people.

  22. Hyper designer mistake….

    1. Legendary gear appear in T1-6 which request legendary gear to farm….

    2. Fing and use legandary become the most enjoyable feature at ROS. However very limited player can assess them and even very few can have many of them. It means the most valuable and intereting part of the game is out of normal player’s reach. Will you keep playing after 1 -2 week game play? sorry i wont…

    Repeat the failure of D3v

    • Tons of Legendaries with new game changing affixes are available before Torment and even without the expansion. Try out the PTR and you’ll see as people link their loot very often in the general chat.

  23. I am glad MF is getting removed. Since we don’t have trading and AH. This is only logical so that people don’t make bot that have high MF to farm lower difficulties for the 24/7 so that they can get all the epic gear. You need to play the game yourself and find your own gear at your own pace.

    This is a balance. MF was not a choice it was the only choice. The biggest reason people got higher Plvl was so that they could have the 300% MF.

    IMO BoA legendary items made botting for cash or trade useless. Nerfing MF has made botting for items useless too. Great Job Blizzard. 😀

  24. I’m all for being able to reduce killing speed/ making the game harder in order to get better loot, but that should come from increasing difficulty and not from decreasing your own power.

    It is exactly as Travis puts it. It feels so much more rewarding to get better loot because you kill stuff faster, and not because you stack an otherwise useless stat that decreases your power.

    “On the topic of people thinking MF is an awesome way to get loot! Well here’s a different way to look at it, getting better gear is going to get you items faster. I would rather you get gear faster because you are more powerful and therefore murdering hordes of strong enemies faster, not because there is a stat that secretly is the most important thing in the game but doesn’t feel good because you have to sacrifice real power for it.” <—- I said pretty much exactly this before d3 classic launched. I'm glad they reached the same conclusion.

  25. What they do not seem to get about MF, in my opinion, is that MF should be a ‘bonus’ stat. Players don’t want to be given a flat amount of it, instead, they rather want to test how much of their core survival stats (in the form of gear) they can sacrifice for some MF and get away with it. It’s about that really gooood feeling of ‘beating the damn system’.

    Therefore, finding good treasure at reasonable frequency shouldn’t rely on players having a certain amount of MF by design – MF shouldn’t be a part of those calculations where Blizzard decide what the standard chance of players getting lucky is. With the AH gone, it’s about time to balance the reward mechanics of this game with the individual player in mind, not exclusively around the needs, requirements and boundaries of some virtual market.

    If necessary, they can have caps on MF and decay of its efficiency and whatnot, but they just shouldn’t factor MF into their whatever the player does, it’s viable game design as a standard stat.

    • I would probably be fine with that definition of MF.

      That said, I think that as many others have said, the best way to implement the goal of MF is to increase drops with difficulty level, the way MP did it. The current ‘Normal-to-Torment’ system works fine for that idea as well, but the numbers and benefits need to be tightened and changed significantly. As many people have noted, on the PTR there is very little reason to play higher difficulties than Normal unless you have acesss to Torment (though that may change when you are able to achieve paragon levels, as non-Torment difficulty levels still provide bonus XP).

      Overall, I agree with getting rid of MF, and I have never really thought of it as a good idea for a stat. To sum up what many people above have said, MF is basically the stat you want when you are strong enough to dominate the game. The idea of MF, that you are weakening yourself in exchange for future benefits, is not a bad idea. However, in practice, instead of players starting strong, then weakening themselves a bit, players get to the point where they are strong enough, then stack MF as high as possible with no real downside. This, combined with the fact that drop rates are tuned in accordance with MF, ensures that instead of being a risky-but-potentially-rewarding choice, MF is simply another stat that you need to stack in order to ‘win’. This is evidenced by tactics such as gear-swapping which take any possible potential risk out of the system.

      I am sure that it is possible to implement MF in such a way that it is an important choice, but I don’t feel that any ARPG I’ve ever played so far has done so. Overall, systems such as MP come closest to the ideal, where you are limiting your ability to kill monsters (because monsters are harder overall) in order to improve drop rates. I think that it is a mistake to remove MP from Diablo III, and that MP should exist alongside the current difficulty-scalar.

      • From what I understand, you suggest to remove MF altogether and transfer its “more challenge, more reward” concept over to the difficulty selection system.

        That would probably be an improvement over how MF’s current implementation (and improvement through complete removal says a lot about the implementation’s quality …). Neither reviving Monster Power nor the current “37 different difficulty settings” approach seem like good examples for elegant, organic gameplay solutions to me, though. Ideally, in-game progression itself would offer enough granularity for both, challenge and rewards. As D3 falls short on delivering enough content though and (in theory) completely randomizes every playthrough, replayability through difficulty modulation is probably the way to go, though. Accepted.

        At the same time, I strongly disagree on removing MF as a stat. If MF was indeed working as in the above described “more challenge, more reward” concept, it presented pretty much the only alternative to gearing your character towards more damage/survival. The choice to sacrifice your character’s power to fuel your own greed and being able to do so fluently in-game and to whatever degree you like/can afford, seems like a far superior concept than selecting a difficulty mode to me. In that way, it’s even a bit of character costumization, and D3 can’t really afford to lose any more of that.

        I feel that D3 could actually do with some more alternatives to maximizing character power (like MF – although, of course, it’s ultimately serving the same goal), but also realize that the game already struggles enough with the very basics it’s trying to provide.

        • I agree that better character customization is needed, but I really don’t think that MF contributes to that at all. If MF functioned as a sacrifice of power/survivability in order to fuel your greed, I probably wouldn’t have a real problem with it. In theory, it does, but in practice, it really doesn’t, and a large part of both my post and others was to show that MF doesn’t work that way. MF is never really a risk; it’s a stat that you pile on when you have enough damage and survivability that more becomes overkill. As a result, you’re never really sacrificing anything, and so instead of being a trade-off that promotes customization, MF becomes just another stat that you need, another part of the trifecta/quadfecta/whatever.

          This is evidenced by two examples that I can give. First, in D2, the main MF builds were Sorceresses, whose power came from damage skills only and was not tied to weapon damage. As a result, Sorceresses could stack survivability and +skills to maximize playability, then load up MF and farm. As shown by Timesink and HardRock’s posts above, you farmed until you had all the good gear on your MF farmer. Then, you either played other characters without caring about drops (since you already had what you needed) or you didn’t play them at all, because they couldn’t MF.

          Second, when D3 was first released, before Paragon levels and MP existed, MF was a real risk/reward situation, where you gimped your power to feed your greed. What happened? Players simply kept two different gear sets: one with full MF, and one with full damage and survivability. They used the power set to get enemies almost dead, then switched to MF to get the drops. There was no risk with the reward, only boredom and long loading screens from teleporting in and out all the time. This MF gear-swapping was, in fact, the reason that the Paragon-MF system was created.

          Because of this, I don’t think it can really be effectively argued that MF as an item stat increases character customization. It gives the illusion of doing so, but in reality, players rarely (if ever) used MF if it presented anything higher than a miniscule level of risk. Because of this, I would put MF in the same kind of category as useless affixes like ‘increased light radius’ from D2 or ‘ignores durability loss’ from D3. Both of these stats are part of their game’s item system, but neither one adds a significant level of customization. MF works the same as the above affixes in that you would never trade meaningful damage and survivability for that affix. None of them are terrible if your character is sufficient, but none of them are inherently valuable to any build.

          To add a greater depth of character customization, I believe that Blizzard should overhaul the +skills mechanic in D3. Currently, the mechanic provides only a damage increase or a resource cost decrease to certain skills. However, if the skill bonuses were large and important instead, it would allow for a large amount of character customization, as you could have characters entirely based on buffing one specific skill or build. In addition, it would allow for a meaningful trade-off of stats: losing health or damage or resist all in exchange for an extra Magic Missile, or a large explosion radius for Meteor, or a second or two more in Archon Form, could be a truly meaningful and interesting trade-off. This would, of course, take Blizzard a long time to implement, and would probably not make Reaper of Souls release. However, I feel that it would provide a much greater and infinitely more interesting level of customization than MF as a stat can bring now, or ever could.

          • Aside from release-day-D3 probably not being a good example for anything, MF offering a degree of character customization would of course require a well executed implementation. Issues like launch day ‘balance’, in-combat gear swapping and so on can’t factor into MF’s consideration. It’s definitely not the ultimate answer to all customization related questions – but still a much better, more playful system in that regard than difficulty mode selection (which was the point, wasn’t it?).

            And please don’t get me started on D3’s skill customization system again – far too much digital ink has been spilled on that topic already 😉

  26. And how do you get these items of great power , oh yeah , magic find .

    But then I think its broken in D3 anyway . I always ran with max mf with my main char who was a witch doctor . I found maybe one legendary every 2 to 3 weeks and always said on the forums I think my char is bugged . People were showing off some amazing stuff they had found with 0 mf . For me it was the nail in the coffin .

    I stopped playing last january , a devout player of classic and D2 and now apparently the drops are slower , whoop de doo . Not instilling me with confidence to come back .

  27. spoiler][BLUE]Bashiok: I think the trick with magic find, or any sort of tertiary stat that doesn’t directly relate to player power, is to make sure that it’s an actual trade off. A lot of times and specifically for certain classes in Diablo II you could stack magic find and still be perfectly able to fight and kill. So what it really comes down to is properly weighting stats on items and ensuring that if you do want to stack something like magic find, that it’s clearly going to limit your power in downing enemies. Auto-stats to a degree also help out in this regard as you can’t effectively stack stats as easily to offset the loss of stats coming from items that might otherwise help keep you alive or kill at an acceptable pace.[/BLUE][/spoiler]

    to this:
    [spoiler][BLUE]travis: how do you balance the game to feel good for someone with 0% MF vs someone with 300% MF. Ultimately the answer to that question is “You can’t” as such we have been trying to phase MF out of the game as much as possible.[/BLUE][/spoiler]awesome! it’s hilarious seeing d3 devs throw their hands up in the air in failure and cry, “[email protected] it, let’s just remove it.”, whenever they can’t deal with something. lulz..vastly overrated.

    [QUOTE=Flux;8586742]That said, I am un
    so, the d3 team went from this:

    Bashiok: I think the trick with magic find, or any sort of tertiary stat that doesn't directly relate to player power, is to make sure that it's an actual trade off. A lot of times and specifically for certain classes in Diablo II you could stack magic find and still be perfectly able to fight and kill. So what it really comes down to is properly weighting stats on items and ensuring that if you do want to stack something like magic find, that it's clearly going to limit your power in downing enemies. Auto-stats to a degree also help out in this regard as you can't effectively stack stats as easily to offset the loss of stats coming from items that might otherwise help keep you alive or kill at an acceptable pace.
     
    
    to this:
    
    travis: how do you balance the game to feel good for someone with 0% MF vs someone with 300% MF. Ultimately the answer to that question is "You can't" as such we have been trying to phase MF out of the game as much as possible.
    awesome! it's hilarious seeing d3 devs throw their hands up in the air in failure and cry, "[email protected] it, let's just remove it.", whenever they can't deal with something. lulz..vastly overrated.
    
    
    
    That said, I am unsympathetic to most anti-MF arguments, as they seem to come from a PoV of 
  28. I voted no to mf. Reasons have already been stated by some other posters above. Mf worked in d2 because there was no mp systrm like we have in d3. Once mp came into play, mf became redundant and problematic. People gear for mf because it is effective for loot finding, not because it makes the gameplay itself more enjoyable.

    With mf gear, there is some best combo of d ifficulty and mf for gear finding. This does not add meaningful depth to the game.

  29. I would also vote against MF, reasons were clearly stated by other players here. It was just stupid stat. I don`t like it in D2 too, even I abused it.
    I was plyaing D3 as self-found (no AH) and leg drops were terrible in D3 even with max MF. It will be clearly visible when BoA will be “used” by more players.
    So I hope they will buff the drops more, because 1-2 leg per hour is too low for me! (Maybe it will be enough when smart-drops step in)

  30. QUOTE

    Agreed.
    
    Choice is good.

    This.

    If people want more DPS for killing monsters quicker they should do!
    If people want more MF getting out more loot out their kills, they should do!

    • As has been pointed out above, monster power / difficulty levels handles this choice much much better.

      If people want to kill faster with fewer good drops, play on Normal.
      If people want to kill slower with more loot, play on Torment VI.

      This approach also avoids another big problem with MF–leechers. With MF, I can join a Torment VI public game with defense and MF and no damage and force the other 3 players to carry me. And I’ll get much better drops for being a leech.

      Without MF, I don’t have any motivation to do this. I should spec for max damage/defense and help kill efficiently in Torment VI.

      • Don’t forget gimmicky tactics like gear switching, which is another problem with MF. Difficulties are an all around better and clearer way to achieve what MF was trying and always failed to do.

  31. Ok, spin this around – how do you really balance mf? Characters have 10 slots of armor, excludes the two hand slots. So each primary affix represents about 10% of the total value you could have for a particular stat.

    So, make mf a PRIMARY stat that rolls up to 10%. How many slots would you really give up? How do you prevent gearswapping?

    Is it worth giving up 500 str for 10% MF? Is this an interesting trade?

    Look, d3 items do not really support the gear puzzle concept seen in d2. More resist is always better, more cc, more crit damage, more ias (excpt some channeled skills), etc. D2 had caps or breakpoints for more stats. D3 doesn’t. It’s not really the way it was designed. They actually removed caps as much as they could.

  32. QUOTE

    @Ivan why dont you just cut out all steps of progression? theres no reason why those steps need to exist
    just premade characters with premade gear so you can just go smash monsters which, as stated many times by new blizzard developers, is what diablo is in essence and how they want you to play the game

    That’s the game they made anyway, so eh. I personally wouldn’t care that much one way or another, but I’m sure other people could have a fit: “zomg maaah items?!?!?” The gear in this game is basically premade anyway (even in RoS it’s basically just, choose with/how many legendary affixes you want) and the characters are premade too since there’s only a little time investment before you can use all skills/all runes.

    But in terms of a more coherent/holistic response: did you notice how in his progression timeline, the “fun” part came at the end? The MF/gearing up seemed like a chore. My point was, why don’t you just move the fun part up, so that you don’t have to waste time doing something you don’t really want to do (play an MF-enabling build to gear up other characters that can’t MF themselves)?

    • he also wrote ‘loved’ near magic find (just not in caps, so less visible)
      one can argue that love >> fun 😛
      anyway, it only means that he didnt rly contradict himself and actually quite clearly wrote that he liked both ‘stages’
      imo gearing character for mf can be as much fun as gearing for bis survival/dps gear
      actually a counterexample to the ‘moving up the fun part’ :
      lets say theyre not removing mf, so if your main goal is to get most items and not exp/bounties/demonic essences/whateverelse youre gathering balanced mf gear and after that you see results in form of more nice drops that you wanted – mf gear served its purpose and youre content with that ‘phase’
      after that youre slowly completing your BiS gear and one day find the last needed item so you can throw mf gear away and… grind paragon level 9724…because theres literally nothing else to do in expansion

      very shallow and basic example but imho gearing for mf could be more fun than grinding numbers on the chart that can at best illustrate epeen and nothing more

  33. Also didn’t like the d2 style that much. Always did /players 8 on singleplayer though.

    I guess i would like to…
    Have some other ingame magic find boosting mechanism!

    Killing boss in under certain time: Butcher
    Without taking damage from adds: Maghda
    Without taking damage from aoe, or specific spell: Azmodan, Belial.

    Boss specific challenges!!

    They can get more ideas from the already existing ones, and apply them to bosses… or even other parts such as cursed chests, and rifts ( in some other future patch ).

    http://www.diablowiki.net/Category:Achievements_(Challenges)

    Just make it give extra 1 rare/chance of legendary if accomplished, or extra materials. Doesn’t even need to be that much.

  34. Using MF in Diablo sucks the life out of the game. Gear is part of the game, not the point of the game.

    Leaving MF in would be good, because some players really enjoy the item hunt (my friend does). But it should be very limited in what it can do so that, like Travis is saying, a powerful hero doesn’t feel like their item progression is gimped because they don’t have a lot of MF.

    Emphasizing on MF makes the player focus less on playing the game to slay demons and fight challenging bosses. Instead the player focuses on gearing for MF to effect an invisible loot table while remaining effective enough to kill well. The player has to divert their time and effort into being a treasure hunting good-enough-warrior that grinds away repeatedly. Players focus not on fun but on efficiency, the run that gives the best drops and has the most easily killed mobs. Fun gameplay and advancing your hero through harder difficulties is not a concern, only drops, drops, drops.

    There were 5 acts in D2 yet with MF runs 90% of players’ time was spent doing the same thing over and over!

    During treasure hunting the game experience is on hold until the player finds gear good enough to do what they were meant to do in the first place: melt the faces of demons, fight terrifying creatures like the Butcher from D1, and both figuratively and literally castrate the forces of hell.

    Travis’ explanation of a game with less MF fits what I want to do. I don’t play Diablo because I want to be a treasure hunter that puts demon-slaying on hold in the search for better loot. What the hell kind of hero is that? Sounds like Tomb Raider or something.

    Replace MF gear with the biggest axe you can find. There’s your better drop chance.

  35. Let us consider a hypothetical enemy. It is weak against fire, and strong against everything else.

    Attacking it with fire reduces its xp and drop quality.

    Here you have an interesting yet simple choice, effectively a dynamic difficulty slider on an individual encounter basis. Note that MF doesn’t do this at all, as it’s MF vs kill speed, aka more loot vs more loot. Except kill speed has other utility, like being faster. And killing noobs on the internet. So what happens is you use whatever items you’d use anyways, and if they happen to have MF great, if they’re not a power sacrifice great, otherwise you don’t touch them.

    Aka, cold sorc or GTFO.

  36. Contrary to what some people may be lead to believe, I enjoy gear trade-offs and finding that right gear setup for my class and build, but I deeply dislike Magic Find.

    Others have covered most of the ground here, but simply put, the killing game and the item game are linked together. Magic find puts them at odds and we get weird player behavior because of it.

    There are people who think that the issue is simply the implementation, but that could be said for virtually anything, including the RMAH, so that is no argument. The question isn’t “could we in theory see magic find working to some purpose”, it’s “how do you get magic find working to some purpose without causing more problems than it solves?” I haven’t seen a good answer yet. I’ve only seen what people want it for, but not how it can shine without its myriad of detriments.

  37. “I would rather you get gear faster because you are more powerful and therefore murdering hordes of strong enemies faster, not because there is a stat that secretly is the most important thing in the game but doesn’t feel good because you have to sacrifice real power for it.”

    And this Travis is one of the many reasons your game is fail. You are basically telling everyone DPS is the only thing that matters on top of taking away player choice on how to gear a character. You leave nothing for players to fiddle around with to find the sweet spot for finding items. There is nothing to sacrifice, no decisions to be made, bigger numbers are always better. Your game is garbage.

    • If you define “only DPS matters” as dealing the most damage you can without constantly dying due to low defense, then that’s true for pretty much any game where you can attack stuff.

      However, if your definition is that only straight up DPS stats matter then that’s no longer true for Reaper of Souls.

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