Some Champion Affixes *Need* Nerfing?


A fan brought up the issue on Battle.net and got some blue replies.

Blizzard, you forgot to nerf champion affixes

You said you didn’t want one shots to occur anymore, but champion packs that have certain combos are ALWAYS a one shot. I’m running 5k armor, 50k hp, 700 resists and one vortex into an arcane and I’m dead. I don’t even understand how that’s supposed to be fun. It’s completely unavoidable. I strongly feel that champion packs need a hard revamping so that a player can accurately predict and prevent incoming champion pack damage because it’s currently impossible.
Lylirra: This thread has a lot of good feedback regarding affix packs (as does this thread), but let me try to address one question really quickly:

I dunno, OP has a point with certain combos. Vortex + frozen+ arcane + desecrate can be a pain, or similar with waller.
There’s a difference between saying “that’s an unfair affix combo” and “I can’t beat this affix combo” (yet). Certain affix packs will be harder than others. The variance in randomness and in the difficulty of the packs is completely intentional and we’re happy with where things are right now.

Having to restart a game or skipping packs altogether is also totally fine. As you become more powerful, finesse your builds, and develop a variety of tactics to use in different situations, you’ll be able to kill more monsters. If you could kill everything uniformly the first time you stepped into an Act, you’d have a really limited sense of progression and the feeling of becoming “more powerful” wouldn’t be as present. The design intent is that some affix packs will unbeatable for you at first, but then you’ll come back later and get your sweet (and well deserved) revenge. We feel that making every affix combo equally difficult would take away the satisfaction of overcoming the more challenging combos later on.

I posted about this a few weeks ago, and our general philosophy hasn’t really changed since then. You feedback is still encouraged, though!

Its not present, this is the first game I have played that as I got higher level, I feel weaker, and I have to go back and farm stuff just to progress through the game. In case nobody has told anyone at blizzard, games are supposed to be fun. This aint fun.
(For you) what would make affix combos more fun, but still be reasonably challenging? Keep in mind that we don’t expect players to be able to easily kill everything they come across the first time, every time in the later difficulties.

This question is open to anyone reading along. If you have suggestions or thoughts, please chime in!

How about those more difficult affixes result in a higher chance to get a rare from those mobs?
Interesting suggestion. I’ll definitely pass it along.

As nasty boss mods are a topic that’s long been near my own heart, I read this thread with interest. That’s an interesting suggestion there at the end, but of course the problem is determining which mods or combinations of mods are the most difficult, as that varies a lot by class and play style. Your Wizard and Demon Hunter dread DiabloWikiMortar and DiabloWikiTeleporter and DiabloWikiVortex, while your Barbarian and Monk generally think those mods are a delightful present (new bugs aside) that took up a monster affix spot that might otherwise have featured something dangerous. By the same token, melee chars dread DiabloWikiPlagued and DiabloWikiDesecrator and DiabloWikiFire Chains and DiabloWikiMolten (or all 4 at once) while those are irrelevant or far less troubling to a ranged attacker.

Just yesterday my Barb (who is newly in Hell, and all self found gear, so it’s hard) got DiabloWikiFast, DiabloWikiHorde, DiabloWikiMolten on a Mage Construct right near the stairs into one of the Act 2 sewers, and I gave up and left the game after five minutes and several deaths when I’d hardly put a dent into the 8 minions, much less the boss. I wished (not for the first time) that D3’s online game system worked like D2’s, so I could have switched characters and joined that game with my DH, who would have taken speedy and violent revenge for my Barb’s impotence.

In general though, I fully agree with the developers that the point of DiabloWikiboss mods is to be difficult and to change up the play style, and that it’s a lot of fun to battle with a combo of mods that challenges your character. When my Barb was even newer in Hell, I got DiabloWikiFrozen, DiabloWikiArcane Enchanted, DiabloWikiDesecrator on a champion pack of those big hammer Cultists in Leoric’s Torture Chambers, and it was ridiculous, since I had to retreat after literally every swing I took at them. And yet I knew I could beat them and it didn’t feel unfair, and when I finally took out the last of the three, (it was easy once I finally got one of them down, since the frequency of their Arcane and Frozen casts decreased greatly) the feeling of victorious accomplishment was intense.

That said, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to keep some mods from spawning with other mods on the same boss or champions. Mods that immobilize you + mods that create huge damage beneath your feet are just wrong, since not all classes have skills that can break through or escape such situations. It might also be nice to limit what can spawn with Vortex, say not allowing that with Fire Chains + Molten + Plagued?

I’d also like to see item mods that helped with such things. Chance to break Jailer, chance to break Walls, chance to resist Vortex, etc, though that seems like something we’ll probably have to wait for D3X or D3Y to see, as they further diversify the item system. Or how about improvements to some of the useless Skill Runes in good skills; a DiabloWikiVault that can pass through Jailer/Waller obstacles, for instance.

Do you guys want to nominate any DiabloWikiElite Affix combos that just should not be? (Can someone can say DiabloWikiInvulnerable Minions early on, so then everyone else can upvote it so it doesn’t fill the whole thread? Thx.) Or do you like the unpredictable nature of boss mod combos and how odd pairings force you to vary your play style, even if that means sometimes some classes will be unable to defeat them?

This calls for a vote. Just a quickie, though.


Should Diablo 3 Elite Affixes be Nerfed?

  • 2) Not nerfed, but some Mods should not spawn with others. (37%, 1,344 Votes)
  • 1) No way. Leave them nasty and unpredictable.` (33%, 1,208 Votes)
  • 4) Yes, some mods and combs are way too hard. (16%, 600 Votes)
  • 3) Maybe a little, but only on Inferno. (11%, 386 Votes)
  • 5) No opinion/not sure. (3%, 105 Votes)

Total Voters: 3,643

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Comments

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  1. I disagree with Blizzard’s assessment that it’s okay to make you leave the game and start a new one if you meet an impossible mob. It interrupts the flow of the game, it destroys your Nephalem Valor that you’ve built up and just doesn’t make sense.

    • Then go back and fight easy content in another act/difficulty and enjoy your flow.

      • You’re missing the point. Blizzard are effectively telling us that at Inferno level we should be quitting the game and reloading to get past mobs, at least until we have ridiculously overpowered gear to the point of being able to kill anything. Do you seriously think the choice should be between playing pointless easymode lower level content, or being forced to leave an impossible game?

        • Inferno is supposed to be hard. Nothing is impossible for any class; most of these challenges can be overcome through gear or through group play, but a lot of it is also skill. Blizzard shouldn’t change anything regarding nasty combos, but some of the affixes individually should be tweaked. The only real problem with affixes is their bias. Jailer stops you from moving, which isn’t that bad unless you’re trying to kite or standing in some bad stuff, but it stops my barbarian from whirlwind (and thus from healing). Also, some attacks go past Waller walls and some don’t.

          Aside from that, CC is a bit ridiculous. Nightmarish fast monsters or nightmarish frozen can result in 10+ seconds of inability to control your character. Is Wrath of the Berserker supposed to be mandatory? It’s not fun to win a battle through luck because you managed to not get feared for 10 consecutive seconds. 1 second of immunity to the same CC after the effect ends would be completely fair.

      • The problem with that statement is the ramp-up. My monk is currently geared with enough armor/resists/life on hit to take most Act I packs with relative ease. There are the occasional mean ones I have to kite a bit, and even some that manage to kill me a few times. Then I will suddenly (still in Act I) run into some wicked combo that just destroys my face. I’ll beat my head against it for 5 or 10 minutes, lose 60k worth of gold in deaths, get it down to 2 of the original 4 mobs, and have it enrage and become unkillable. Unapproachable even, as I died just walking into to sight of it. And I’m forced to leave the game and lose my NV stacks.

        Due to the ease with which I can kill everything else surrounding that pack of mobs, it just feels like a brick wall. Not something I need help gearing past, but a cheap combo that needs a fix. I don’t mind harder fights, but I dislike impossible ones in areas which I am already overgeared for.

  2. “Having to restart a game or skipping packs altogether is also totally fine.” -> A restart is not fine for me. Challenging means it takes time to kill, not quitting and restarting hoping it’s not there. I like public games and often the group gets into a good rhythm but when players start to leave because of frustrating elite packs it breaks the rhythm. If you have to restart and leave your party it means there’s something game-breaking in the game. I get the most satisfaction from a play session when we’re reliably *progressing*. The more you break the flow the more likely I am to stop playing and watch a movie instead.

    • But how could Bliz determine that? They don’t know how well geared a player is, how good their build is, what sort of party cooperation they’re using, etc. If Bliz makes some judgments based on average or typical characters, there will be endless players who think a change is too hard or too easy, or just wrong for their build/class.

      I guess Bliz could put in some code to control the available/common boss mods in a single player game, since D3 largely forces all chars of the same class to play in the same fashion (at least on Hell/Inferno), but that’s not going to translate into MP games.

      • Flux wrote: “But how could Bliz determine that? They don’t know how well geared a player is, how good their build is, what sort of party cooperation they’re using, etc.”

        IMO, Blizzard is still suffering from what Gary Gygax called “Monty Haul Syndrome”. The gear and stats are extremely overpowered (seriously, what character should have 50,000 H.P. ?) so the monsters have to be overpowered. Putting the overpowered genie back in the bottle is next to impossible without a major rescaling of the game.

        If Blizzard’s only strategy to make the game challenging is requiring great gear, then eventually all serious players will have great gear and the challenge will be gone. If the challenge requires some skill in playing, some reasonable gear and some luck, then the challenge will last.

        If I were CEO of Blizzard, I’d hire some outside players to help put the fun and challenge back into the game. There are four people in particular I’d look to: Jens Baumann and Martin Reich (the V&K wizards) Brother Laz, and a longtime Diablo 1 & 2 player by the name of Steven Van Ham, who understands the aspects of making the game fun the way Griswold knows his way around an anvil.

        I think most players want to be excited about playing Diablo 3 as long as they were Diablo 1 and Diablo 2. Blizzard has put a lot of exciting stuff into Diablo 3, and I’m hoping they continue to try and improve the game.

        • I don’t really mind the numbers, though it does seem silly when someone has 100,000 damage. Just the number being so large clashes with my sense of discrete values for dps in this type of game. But that’s purely a sense of players not being used to D3’s style/system. Bliz could instantly reduce all of the values to 10% of their current, changing nothing but our perception. And then 5000 hps would be a lot, but you’d be dealing .3 dps at the start of the game.

          Basically it’s a problem with their dev theory of making chars forever progressing and more powerful, and with a long game and 4 diff levels, and a need for noticeable, obvious improvements even in Inferno, numbers are necessarily going to expand pretty high.

          >> “If Blizzard’s only strategy to make the game challenging is requiring great gear, then eventually all serious players will have great gear and the challenge will be gone. If the challenge requires some skill in playing, some reasonable gear and some luck, then the challenge will last. ”

          I read a forum thread today that touched on similar. It’s how D2 vs. D3 was end game designed. D2 hell wasn’t meant to be impossible. Even with junky equip and bad char (e.g. variants) you could beat it, eventually. There was never a real “gear check” deadstop point like D3 gives in inferno. The goal for players in D2 was to get faster at doing it, add in MF, etc, and since max level was 99 and very long time to reach, replaying felt like progress even w/o item improvement.

          D3 doing away with a level grind end game puts all the marbles into items, and if you don’t improve gear, you feel you’ve wasted your time. Also, D3’s unique/sets are lame/boring, on top of being essentially nonexistent in scarcity. In D2 you had specific things you wanted to find, and knew you had a chance, so you weren’t just hoping for incremental Rare improvement. And even if you found a unique set you didn’t want, it felt somewhat special, reminding you of the specific unique you did want.

          • That is definitely one of the big things I miss – that idea that you have specific things you want to find. And each one you find was a small step toward completing your build. Most of them were reasonably attainable, even for SP, and most build guides included some kind of hierarchy, e.g. “Skullders > Wealth > Tal’s Armor > 4T Armor” (credit Flux’s Javazon guide 😛 )

          • I was a big fun of hunting for specifics in D2, I knew I wanted my Arreat’s, dual Doombringers (yeah, I know it wasn’t the most powerful sword, so what? the name was awesome and it looked great!), String and what not…

            But playing D3 I realised there’s a pitfall in that. Basically, two things happen with the old approach:
            1. Anything other than the item you hunt for feels…meh, unless you want to transfer it to other chars or maybe trade.
            2. You will find the item and then you’re done with the hunt (happaned once I got Buriza).

            So far in D3 I don’t have any particular items I hunt for with my Barb and thus each new rare has a potential to be exciting or an improvement over my current stuff. I focus on item properties, i.e. does it have Res All, Vit, Str etc and then make choices when an item has some of them but not others. Every improvement in at least one property feels good.

            So yes, I could dream up an ideal rare to hunt for but if I do so, any rare I find has a potential to be that one and I don’t go “booo, it’s not a unique”. IIRC non-ring rares felt quite disappointing in D2 once I decked out my chars with a bunch of uniques.

            Just my thoughts.

        • There is no difference between doing 1 damage to a 100 hp monster and doing 1k damage to a 100k hp monster. The large numbers are the result of having an exponential growth in player power. By having an exponential increase the power gain going from lvl 61 to lvl 62 is the same as going from lvl 11 to 12. A linear increase would mean that gear obtained in act 4 inferno would not feel that different from act 1 gear, there would be no “progression”

          • There is a difference between doing 1 hp of damage to a 100 hp monster and 1K damage to a 100K hp monster if the monster regenerates life at 20 hp per second. Therein lies the problem. Unless everything in the formula scales by the same method and rate then certain aspects can throw the system out of balance.

            When you have a smaller range of values, it is easier to mix arithmetic, geometric, exponential and logarithmic terms and still have the probability curves overlap where you want them to. As the ranges become larger and you add more variables the interactions become more complex and soon grow beyond predictability.

            Blizzard could leave their ranges as they are and rent some time on a supercomputer and run some stochastic simulations using Monte Carlo methods to find out where combinations of affixes, skills and buffs will break their game balance.

            The IAS nerf is a good example of something that scaled up faster than Blizzard intended it to. Players devoting almost all of their resources to a few key stats is also an example of where the game balance model is probably broken by scaling.

            In the meantime, while Blizzard is ironing out how to best balance the game they could put some diminishing return caps on stat interactions both for players and monsters.

            Blizzard could also rework the skills/rune system so that certain combinations were much better for some situational tactics while being lousy for others. An escape skill that helped with Jailer, but wasn’t much use against Waller for instance. A movement skill that helped your character combat mortar, but made you more susceptible to Vortex would be another. With this kind of scenario, characters willing to give up Nephalem valor could find a skill combo that would allow them a chance at beating a certain champion pack. This wouldn’t be to make it easy, but just so the group of monsters wasn’t a game breaker.

            IMO, if instead of being instagibbed repeatedly and having to go to another game, the player spent 10-20 minutes battling an elite pack to finally get through, then Blizzard will have achieved a reasonable challenge because the game was fun enough for the player to want to continue that battle.

        • Dalai Lama wrote : “If I were CEO of Blizzard, I’d hire some outside players to help put the fun and challenge back into the game.”

          Why would you want to keep people in-game ? Why would you want increase servers upkeep ? It’s not WoW where customers pay subscription fee. D3 is B2P (buy to play) game with possibility to buy power in game – RMAH.

          So if you want maximize profit as CEO of Blizzard you should let customers buy game then force them by design to buy some stuff from AH/RMAH (in game where items are central part when you have everything game is pointless) then just wait becouse sooner or later they will stop playing till next expansion.

  3. What really annoys me about affixes is cc-chain they can do. You can be feared into freez and just die becouse of arcane enchant/desecrate/plague without chance to react. It’s not funny to watch your character dies becouse fear/freez appearently doesnt have any DR and fear can proc alot.

    • On top of that, the champion packs are so resistant to cc effects themselves that it’s almost not worth bothering. Playing as a witch doctor, I want to rely on control, not kiting, and I can’t.

  4. As a side effect, I’d like to point out that one of my dreadest affix combos is illusionist with mortar, just because in mid to low end machines it totally destroys frame rate, leaving you totally helpless.

  5. “5k armor, 50k hp, 700 resists” Ok stats for hell, I doubt he dies there one shot. Inferno? Bad gear tbh, maybe defense passives or skills help..

  6. I don’t mind challenging bosses per se, but there’s a thin line between challenge and frustration; the former makes me want to keep playing, the latter doesn’t. To me, repeatedly dying to a random bs combo, watching that res timer increase and the elite pack quickly regenerate to full health is easily the most frustrating thing you can experience in Diablo 3.

    • I completely agree about elite full regen. I think the problem is that it feels random; I’ve usually got one or two deaths “invested” in a tough fight when it happens, and it’s just demoralizing to see that progress suddenly erased. I know that the devs want to discourage death zerging, but I think the increased repair costs (plus the eventual breaking of gear) are enough. Beyond that, let us decide how much gold/time/pride we want to lose to a ridiculous elite pack. Screw the elite full regen and rage timers.

  7. It’s Inferno, it’s SUPPOSED to be difficult. I hate all the qq to get things nerfed, it already got Inferno nerfed which sucks. By the time you hit Inferno you better well know what affix combinations are hard for you and avoid them if you can’t kill them. For me right now about the only affix combination I fear is Horde/Nightmare because if I engage I’m basically chain cc’d until I die (and as a HC player this is a pretty siginficant problem). But I know this which is why I identify champ mods and run if I can’t kill them. If you don’t know what you can’t kill by the time you get to Inferno that’s your problem, it’s not an issue with the game.

    • To me the big issue is when there are packs that makes running away from them hard or impossible.
      Combining fast, vortex and jailer and you may not be able to get away even if you wanted to.
      And teleport, jailor banelings is just broken.

    • no one is asking for it to be easy, everyone is asking for it to be fun. you can make inferno hard while remaining fun. being killed without any chance to save yourself is not fun. if the only way to survive is to make a new game then something is broken. i like the random mobs but when you can get killed from fear to frozen to arcane or whatever then its not fun.

      is it that hard to understand that people want a fun game thats not easy mode? i know it can be done it has in the past. of course everytime anyone says anything bad someone like you makes a post with “qq” in it. when will people understand that you can actually have a discussion without either side “qq” ing or being a fanboy

  8. Make stuff like Vortex or Jailer dodgeable/interruptable, damnit. That fixes most of the issue right there.

  9. The most feared affix for me is fire chains for sure. If it’s paired with shielding or nightmare it gets really frustrating, since sometimes the nightmare procs in about every 2 or 3 hits. So if I don’t kill any of them before my wrath of the ancients runs out, I basically need leave them alone. Anyways, I’m totally fine with these almost impossible combos, because they are rare.

  10. I don’t really know what the OP expected? Inferno suddenly be a lot less difficult? It became quite a bit less difficult simply by the damage reduction.

    There can be some nasty combos that you might want to simply outrun, but i think there is a strategy for all of them. If you can’t pass them yet, then you need to gear up!

    Keeping on like this the difficulty of Inferno will be nullified and then people will cry its too easy and not like Blizzard sad, almost impossible!

    • The problem with “There can be some nasty combos that you might want to simply outrun, but i think there is a strategy for all of them.” is that in too many cases the answer is just “get better gear”.

      I want to be able to defeat elites that would tear a similarly geared character apart if controlled by a less-experienced player because I chose the right skills and knew how to dodge and weave through enemy attacks. And many a time this just isn’t possible – you can try dodging arcane beams (which can be rather fun) but that’s not going to help you if you get instantly jailed at the spot with no way to break through. Or if you get vortexed back in. Or walled in with them.

      Sure, I could just grind over and over until such things no longer phase me at all, but the gameplay will still remain boring. There’d be no point in dodging or having fast reflexes because you’re going to get trapped anyway. The only reason you’d win is that you had enough gear to tank the damage or enough DPS to kill the elite before he can use his abilities on you. At which point a bot would be better than me at the game. And I hate that.

  11. I think the Champs are completely unfair, roadblocks that hurt the game drastically.

    Instead of an ACT boss holding my progress, I have to deal with a random spawn in a random location that holds my progress RATHER THAN A BOSS that I could join a public game and say “hey help me defeat this guy”.

    Oh good, I could to spend 20 minutes kiting this champ, and die a whole bunch. Yeah that is fun.

    The issue: Which I’ve said all along.. is this:

    I’m ok with Inferno being hard, and the 1% being in there. And to have it be challenging.

    The issue I have, is all of the elite gear the i60+ can only be found in inferno. (they have since fixed that issue? but they have a lower drop rates?)

    What I am saying this: Act 3/4 of Hell mode drops the same gear and the same percentage of gear for all of INFERNO.

    And make inferno insanely hard. I’m all for that. But putting the best gear and the best drop percentages in a difficulty where the 1% is only suppose to get to makes the game.. well not fun. The rich get richer and the poor get well screwed and can’t progress through the game because the Rich set the prices and will make it millions of gold, and I have to farm all day long just to get one piece of gear that is up grade (if I’m lucky) farming in Hell mode where I have a 3% chance of getting i63 gear. That ruins the game for a lot of people. I’m sorry it does.. or at least it did because the people that figure that out have already quit.

    This would solve all of the problems IMO. But whatever. I quit playing a week ago.

    tl:dr
    Act 3/4 of Hell = same drop rates as inferno
    Only diff between hell mode and inferno is the difficulty of Inferno being 5X’s as hard.

  12. I’ve been playing mainly ranged classes (Wiz and DH) and one of the biggest dangers from elites/champs is that not only do they get the nasty mod combos, but their base movement speed (compared to a normal monster) is 2-3x faster (or so it seems). I ran into a pack of those burrowing leapers, with both Vortex + Fire Chains (and two other mods I don’t remember) and it was impossible to keep any distance from them, which = quick death. The same thing with those soul lashers/rippers in act iii – it’s like some monster types get a bonus “fast” mod on top of any other attributes.

    I will add, though, that it is satisfying when you do finally manage to defeat a challenging group of critters. I understand the importance of keeping challenges in the game to overcome (otherwise, what’s the point?), but some mod combos change it from a challenge to a brick wall of frustration…and that is not satisfying at all.

  13. Stop complaining. Woopdiedoo, you died on SC, yet the Hardcore players like DarkPhenom above and me are dissapointed that the game gets nerved. Sad situation.

    • Watch out folks, we’ve got a badass over here.

      • More importantly, why is Flux (who used to champion HC in d2) playing SC in D3?

        • Well, maybe he’s doing what I’m doing. I used to HC-only in D2 but have much less time now, so I’d rather learn as much about the game as I can first before jumping into HC so I can avoid dying to some trivial stuff due to everything being new.

          I’m also waiting for them to polish the game as much as possible. Already with 1.0.3 I’ll be saving tons of gold when making low-lvl gems and training artisans.

          Plus, it’s fun to experience the game a bit without the constant fear of dying 🙂

        • Flux has a website to run and wiki to update and lots of RL stuff = limited play time. Thus I need to play SC to gain knowledge about all the game stuff at higher levels. Had I many less calls upon my time I’d have been happy to do HC only right from the start and learned by pain.

          I am thinking more about HC lately, partially since I’ve been talking to Xanth a fair amount, and the idea of playing HC with some friends in a co-op party is seeming fun. I hope to get into that later this summer, when I have a bit more time to play.

  14. I think we need to ask Mr. Conviction Smith about his opinion on this situation.

  15. There’s a difference between ‘hard’ and ‘impossible’.

    ‘Hard’ means you die a few times (as in maybe three times for a champion/named pack or ten times for bosses). You give it a try and fail, try it again and fail, change your tactics for a new attempt, progress and fail, optimize your new strategy aaand success – phew, that was hard but you made and everything’s fine. Onwards to the next, slightly even more difficult challenge. That’s fun.

    ‘Impossible’ means you encounter an enemy that feels completly out of context in terms of difficulty compared to everything you had to deal with before. No matter what you do, no matter if you acquire a few +20 attack attribute/+20 vitality gear upgrades, you just don’t get past 80/70% enemy health or the boss does something completly unsurvivable in a later phase. When this happens to you in Inferno, it can’t really be lacking understanding of the encounter because you’ve already played that bit for the n-th time and you should by that time know how to use your skills to maximum effect. So gear’s your best bet. Farming for gear is rarely an option that late in the game because your needs and existing standard are already pretty specific combinations. So gold grinding again in order to hit the auction house. One or two gear upgrades may do the trick or no difference at all. But that’s not fun.

    It’s fine for their pool of random elements to roll a hard challenge but when all those elements (not just affixes, also monster types, player classes, terrain restrictions like narrow caves) combine into impossible situations you easily once again get the feeling how of poorly tested this game is upon release, despite being in developement and on hold forever. Personally, I’ll keep this one in mind for the next time they advertize or defend their development process with their extra-polishing-mantra.

    With their Nephalem Valor system in place as a requirement for actually getting rewarded for beating a challenge, Blizzard suggesting to simply reroll until you find something you can kill, is rather adding insult to injury.

  16. Well there’s 2 factors here in terms of problems IMO, either 1) your character is under-geared, but it should still be possible to do though with a fair amount of work unless your struggling with a lot of things. You should never be steam rolling through everything including other elite/champ mobs then come up against one that has an affix combo that you have no chance against.
    2) The elite/champ mob having affix combos that basically are lame. Hello mass disables and disable and big damage combos.

    The only fixes I can see that can be applied are:
    1) adjust drop tables so your less likely to be under geared.
    2) Nerf the stronger mob affixes (IE the ones that are causing the problem).
    3) Stop some affix combs being able to spawn on mobs.

    Of these well no 1 wont fix the difficulty spike of the elite/champ being there, so not a good idea and it would also make the rest of the game too easy. So we are left with 2 or 3 both of these would work OK, as for what is best depends on what the problem is.
    If any mob with the Jailer affix is really hard compared to mobs without it then that suggests that it needs a nerf. If on the other hand its fine but becomes a problem when its paired with Frozen then the fix will be to make it where Jailer & Frozen cant spawn on the same mob.

    From what I seen its the mods combos that the problem so stopping some combos being able to spawn should fix the problem.

    • In an odd way, I think the AH is exacerbating the problem of Inferno being a wall. Since it’s easy to use the GAH to basically self twink some weapon that’s way higher than your char would ever have otherwise, and that covers for a lot of sins.

      My barb was a poor build, with most things devoted to DPS, and that was plenty to get him through NM. But I hit a wall in Hell since I had a 2H weapon and very low defense, and bosses were just destroying me. Any plagued or Desecrator especially, since I couldn’t stand in those for a second, even in WotB form.

      Halfway through Act One I regeared with more vit gems, and redid my build to more defensive skills and passives, and went 1H/shield, and suddenly I could tank just fine and stopped dying almost completely.

      That was necessary since I had all self-found gear, and my weapon was a 220 polearm. But if I’d been chopping along with a 650 weapon (at level 54ish) I’d probably have been able to ignore the other deficiencies in my build and gear, and have gotten through most/all of Hell.

      And then Inferno would have felt impossible, that I was getting one-shotted constantly, etc. I think that’s basically what’s happened to a lot of players, that they used the GAH to make the hell play through much easier and to cover the sins of their builds, and then Inferno said “no.” and it was a shock to discover what they would have long before.

  17. Playing from Australia, ANYTHING they do to change that game that isn’t fixing the lag/packet loss issues that got introduced a couple weeks after release is pretty irrelevant. Currently, for every player in this region, every elite can potentially kill you without you having a chance to do anything about it.

  18. Blizzard has themselves between a rock and a hard place. While I think Invulnerable Minions is a BS boss mod 90% of the time, give me a Monk with FoT/Thunderclap and I am jumping up and down for joy that the champion pack only has 3 potential boss mods I need to contend with. (There I mentioned it for you.)

    Then there is playing solo versus playing in a party, and when playing in party, class diversity. How do you “fix” the 4-boss-mod combos when:

    – what’s asinine for one class is not asinine for another
    – what’s asinine solo is not asinine for a party
    – what’s asinine for a mostly ranged party is not asinine for a mostly melee party or a diverse party
    – what’s asinine for a mostly melee party is not asinine for a mostly ranged party or a diverse party

    I’ve complained about 4-boss-mod combos, and think something needs to be done. However, whatever is done, all of the above needs to be kept in mind when making changes. At the moment, if I were Blizzard, I’d only look at the boss mod combos that are complete BS regardless of solo/party play and/or party make-up. Combinations where you cannot melee the pack, range the pack, nor run away from the pack (all at the same time) are BS, but everything else should be fair game. D3 is supposed to be a cooperative, multi-player game after all. If you cannot do something on your own, party up. For example, if you are strictly melee, and run into something that cannot be melee’d, the answer should be joining a party, not changing the game to accommodate you being strictly melee.

    I was playing my Monk in Act 3/4 Hell last night. I’m strictly melee. I partied up, 4 players — my Monk, 2 Demon Hunters, and a 4th which changed throughout the night as we played. The game was easiest when the 4th was a Witch Doctor with meat-shield/fetish. When the 4th was yet another Demon Hunter the game was the hardest. I alone can’t tank everything. And there were times where I stood back and did nothing (melee was impossible) while the battle was cake for range. Of course, the shoe was on the other foot at times too, where I was the only one that could fight while the ranged were running around for dear life. I didn’t mind either of these situations, but you know, when we ran into champion packs where both melee and range were impossible, well, we all died repeatedly, though managed to have 1 or 2 of us always in the fight. These are the boss-mod combinations that need to be addressed. Chain-rezzing is BS, so is just expecting us to skip the pack, or quit and start a new game.

  19. I voted #2. I didn’t get far enough in game to see really murderous combinations but it works the other way too. I just laugh when I see squishy ranged monster with vortex 🙂 Randomness? OK, but some tweaks wouldn’t hurt.

    • A few times I’ve gotten those and just laughed. Some spear throwing goat man, for instance, with vortex and teleporter. Just working against his own interests, as he constantly pops into range and then tries to back up again.

      So, should Bliz remove that option? It’s silly to have a boss with mods that are exactly what he doesn’t want with his attack style. If Bliz is going to take out mods that players find impossible, isn’t the opposite fair as well?

      • It’s not ‘silly’, it’s just plain poor. Another example of where they put some ambition and effort into content programming but later on couldn’t be bothered with planning some half-decent design for proper integration. The result is more generable content that fails to not appear generic.

        “We can always fix it later if randomly throwing stuff together doesn’t yield good enough results.”
        A bit cynical that several gameplay aspects of D3 feel rushed for release.

  20. Some combinations just feel cheap, but I think the real problem is in the unavoidable nature of jailor, nightmare, vortex, etc. These are usually what turn the other difficult affixes into an impossible combination. Arcane, molten, fire chains, etc. aren’t too tough to avoid for a skilled player. But when you’re constantly being CC’ed by the others, with no way of avoiding it, skill is completely taken out of the equation and you’re relying solely on gear to trivialize the encounter. I think a good example of a CC ability that is challenging, yet fair is frost. It gives a bit of notification, allowing you to move accordingly and avoid it.

    Quit the game with five stacks of NV and start over? You may as well be telling me to go play Nightmare. This is an insulting suggestion, and I feel it is a lazy way out from a design standpoint.

  21. I think asking for a nerf at this point is a bad idea. We still have the class rebalance patch ahead of us that SHOULD make more skill builds viable. Until then there’s no point in asking for champ nerfs.

  22. I guess nobody wants to bother to look at this problem holistically. The affixes are a problem, but just a small part of a much larger problem.

    As for me, it isn’t an issue of difficulty, but an issue of fun. And re-making games because this combo is too hard, that’s just stupid, but hey IT’S END GAME. But I do find it hilariously ironic that Flux of all people is turning into a white knight.

  23. what I think they should work on is making skill changes more appealing in-fight or right before the fight.

    Currently, I see a blue pack from a distance, read their specs and…do pretty much nothing about it because I don’t want to lose my NV and don’t want to wait for skill cooldown. This discourages me from experimenting with different approaches even when I know a different setup would be better suited to a particular pack.

    • One of the main points of the NV system was to get you to dedicate to a build in order to have some flimsy illusion of permanency.

      • True. However, in my case, it doesn’t so much entice me to sticking to a build as it does to playing the game till the final boss. I find it a great incentive to keep playing as I get the stacks. The skill change restraint feels too artificial and forced in a system that was designed to promote flexibility.

        I think it would greatly benefit build diversity and utilisation of less-used skills if you were allowed to change them in order to tailor your strategy. Often times I wanted to change my AOE skill for a boss fight, but wouldn’t due to NV.

    • Respec’ing at will to own every situation is exactly what D3 should NOT be allowing in the first place. D3 should require “building” a character that can defeat the game, and there should be several viable options to where people can evaluate the skills, their play style, and put together something that works. And then bask in the satisfaction that they have succeeded.

      Has anyone else had this annoying experience while playing D3? You are playing your class in multi-player, kicking ass. Someone else joins the game playing the same class as you, but a completely different build that’s getting owned in every situation. And then as time passes over the course of 5 minutes, you end up playing with your identical twin.

      Now I’m not saying my build was godly, or original, or that no one else would have thought of using it, but watching someone be able to become my twin over the course of 5 minutes, all the while out fighting enemies, is an idiotic game mechanic in my mind. What is more, had the person entered the game with my exact build I would not have given it any thought other than my build isn’t original.

      • Not sure what you’re trying to say. First you say that a build should be solid, not changing all the time, then you seem to complain that builds transform into cookie-cutter styles where originality gets lost due to function.

        ?

        The very fact that certain Elite affixes (or even normal monster attacks) are tailored to melee or range implies that the converse is true for the characters themselves. Blizzard theselves said Mortar is an anti-range property. Well, Weapon Throw is a Barbarian skill that is tailored for ranged fighting and seems good against monsters with Molten or anything that deals great melee damage or that you want to keep a distance from. It is by design. So why not encourage it? I’d be much happier to swap it out for Hammer of the Ancients for the 10% of the situations and find the skill useful than have it sitting unused or pick it only to have it be much less useful in the 90% of situations.

  24. The combination that bothered me the most also has a fairly reasonable fix; and that’s why it bothers me. Some stuff like vortex/jailer/waller/plagued is just going to ruin a day for most people. I’m mostly OK with that. I’d like it to be rewarded appropriately, but that’s seperate.

    My complaint is that, a Vampiric + Plagued/Desecrator is leeching life off the Plague pools and Desecration zones! I was fighting a Fast/Vampiric/Plagued Skeleton in Act 3 and despite having good enough gear to pound everything else fairly well, I COULD NOT deal damage fast enough to overcome the life he was gaining from me and my follower standing in his plague pools. The zone was fairly small too, so he could cover pretty much the entire area. I eventually killed him by running around in circles for a long while taking occasional pot shots. He’d catch up and throw down pools of poison, I’d hit him once, maybe twice and run off again. That was not a fun fight.

    That was not a FUN fight. It was hard, but it was challenging before it got stupid. Make Vampiric not leech Plague/Desecrator damage too, or only a small fraction of it.

  25. I for one would love to see enrage timers delayed longer or removed entirely from inferno elites and champions. I don’t mind fighting and dieing but when I am about to kill something that has vampiric+extra health+invulnerable or something similar that takes a while to kill, it sucks to be punished after having spent so much time and effort by something that doesn’t feel at all like a natural part of the game or from the monster itself.

  26. Part of the thrill of the game was knowing that in Hardcore mode around literally ANY corner could be a champion pack that could destroy you. You don’t know where it’s going to be, you don’t know what it’s going to consist of you but you know it is going to kick your ass if you don’t be very cautious and constantly be on the look out for it. You guys want to remove this from the game and it sucks because it’s something that’s incredibly enoyable to a lot of players like me, it adds an almost indiscribable element to Hardcore mode at least. If you remove these bad combo’s then what? Now I don’t have to care, everything’s been so homogonized that it doesn’t matter any more, one pack isn’t much scarier than the other because a bunch of whiners qq’d their way to getting one of the few challenges left in the game nerfed (After you guys got Inferno nerfed, thanks a lot for that by the way). I SPECIFICALLY asked Jay Wilson at the last Blizzcon during the Q&A if they were going to nerf Inferno for the casuals. He said no and I believed him. I guess I shouldn’t have and if they’ve done a complete 180 on that than there’s nothing stopping them from nerfing champ affixes

    Unless you’re completely overgeared for the area are you SUPPOSED to have a chance to run into something you might not be able to handle, that’s part of what Diablo is and you guys want to remove it.

    Leave my Diablo alone please, go play hello kitty island if you don’t want challenges to overcome.

    • You’re making it a little too simple.
      “I SPECIFICALLY asked Jay Wilson at the last Blizzcon during the Q&A if they were going to nerf Inferno for the casuals. He said no and I believed him.” You’re assuming they tweaked Inferno to perfection before releasing the game and then just made it easier due to complaints. They realised that the progression was not even and made adjustments to tailor to the community as a whole. You make it sound like it changed from hard to laughably easy.

      I would not complain if they left it as it was because I’m in the game for long-term (at least so far) and would just accept that I have to get better gear by grinding A1 for weeks. But the game is much more enjoyable for me now that I am not stuck in A1 for weeks and can progress slowly through A2 and the whole transition from A1 to A2 feels smoother. And I don’t think it’s easy now, just easIER.

      You have to understand that this is not YOUR Diablo but ours 🙂 Nobody will have everything they want. I myself like the changes.

      Peace.

  27. “I’m running 5k armor, 50k hp, 700 resists and one vortex into an arcane and I’m dead. I don’t even understand how that’s supposed to be fun.”

    5k armor? that’s not even enough for inferno. No wonder he gets 1 shot.

    • Incorrect, 5K is more than enough, its really only a problem for Demon Hunters who struggle to get a decent armor rating and high resists.

      I’m running a Wiz that has just a lil over 5k armor WITH Force Armor on, and I’m at the end of Act 2 Inferno. The problem isn’t his stats, the problem is INFERNO itself.

      As for the original topic, I personally think all or most monster traits are cheap and very frustrating to play against. They dont provide a challenge, they provide cheap mechanics designed to cheese the player. As someone who comes from the 8-bit era from the 1980’s, I was so glad when later and more modern games abandoned these flawed mechanics and thought I had seen the last of them. Never dreamed they would return in my fav game series of all time….I say fire this Blizz team and bring back Blizz North and go back to making games where actual SKILL is required, instead of cheesing the player to death, nerfing every tactic in sight, and then saying “hahaha, you WILL die”. GTFO with that bullshit. If I want to play cheesy games where all player control is removed, I’ll go play a Nintendo game from 1985 or something. But these mechanics have no business in an RPG.

      This whole philosophy of “player underpowered, monsters overpowered” is a bad philosophy and if Blizz thinks this is fun, they are sorely mistaken and need to re-think their entire formula. Do I want the game to be easy? Not easy, but not tedious and un-fun either, which most of these monster affixes are.

  28. My main complaint is the timing of the affix combos. 9 times out of 10, I am in a dungeon somewhere, run up on elites in a narrow corridor, try kiting them to a more open area, and bam, get walled in with an arcane orb just destroying me. Respawn (spend 25k on repairs), go to face again with even more buffs (Barbarian class here), barely get out of the narrow corridor, and find out the hard way his buddies are invulnerable. Maybe I may suck at the game, but farming and leveling for 80 or so hours shouldn’t make you feel like your character sucks.

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