On the Drawing Board #25: Paragon 2.0 = No Feeling of Character Progression?

This is a very preliminary opinion, but based on nearly a week of fairly steady Reaper of Souls beta play, I’m worried that the transition to DiabloWikiParagon 2.0, the account wide Paragon Points system, plus the complete removal of any individual character growth or improvement post-level 70, is a mistake and is going to be un-fun long term.

The first look from Gamescom 2013.
The first look from Gamescom 2013.
To be fair I should say that I’ve been worried about this since the sharagon system was first announced many months ago, so maybe it’s just me. But playing so far in the RoS beta, once my characters hit 70 (I’ve done it so far with a softcore Demon Hunter and a hardcore Monk) it feels like my character advancement grinds to a a halt. Sure, my characters are progressing like mad in terms of gear, because hitting 70 in RoS is a lot like hitting 60 in D3V — in both cases you immediately quadruple your DPS/Toughness/etc, except in ROS you find the items instead of just buying them in the Auction House.

My Hardcore account is Paragon 150, and so far in my total play with my HC Monk at lvl 70, which is several games a night all week, plus the 3 hours last night during the live stream in a three player game, I’ve advanced in levels from about 150.1 to 150.35. That’s with a +33% EXP ruby in my hat and a Hellfire Ring on my finger for most of the trip, plus a HR and Leoric’s Signet on my merc when playing solo. Admittedly, I’ve been on not-very-high difficulty levels and I’ve been doing more exploring and experimenting than really trying to grind for exp, but the freshness of the beta has me playing a lot more than I usually do, and I’m still on pace to to level up once about every 4 weeks.

And here’s the best part; what would that monthly level up give me? One more Paragon Point to spend in the DiabloWikiAdventure Tab! Awesome! That’s 1 more point of maximum Resource! Or .2% more DiabloWikiPickup Radius! I can hardly wait!

Click through for less sarcasm, but more serious consideration of this (apparent) problem and some possible solutions.

Actually I can wait. I feel zero desire to grind for levels (just for equipment) at this point in Reaper of Souls, and not just because the Beta is on a sort of DiabloWikiPTR where none of the changes are permanent. The levels are going to take forever and grant me almost no benefit, so why bother trying to achieve them? It’s undoubtedly beneficial to have the levels, especially if you’ve already earned 100 or 150 or 200 from your leveling, but we earned them in D3V where level ups are frequent and the bonuses are impactful, adding considerable stats and MF/GF every time.

So, what’s the solution? I’m not sure.

I like the idea of account-wide Paragon bonus rewarding your total play time, and in D3V I don’t like the way all the MF going to one character makes me feel trapped into playing my main, since very high MF is mandatory for dependable item finds. But playing even just a week of RoS it feels like the devs have gone way too far, and that players are going to get bored with a lack of progression, and with the tiny bonuses per level, once they’ve gotten past the initial rush of constant exciting item upgrades.

I think I’d like to see some kind of hybrid system, where you accrue bonuses to your entire account, but where individual characters also get some sense of progression past 70 by scoring useful bonuses at least semi-regularly. But not bonuses that are so big or of the type (like MF/GF) that makes you feel locked into playing that one character forever.

Easy, right? Well, no, but as I often joke on the podcast, making video games is hard.

Update: I didn’t realize this until after I’d written this whole article, but the previous On the Drawing Board, from back in July, was also about Paragon 2.0. At that point we knew nothing about the system details and most fans (including me) thought it would be just some variation on the current D3V system with the passive MF/GF/EXP gains from leveling up spread across the entire account.

I like the overall account bonuses more than just some modified MF/GF/EXP bonus system, but now that I see it in action, I worry that the progression is too slow and the bonuses too minimal, and that the total focus on account bonuses at the expense of any individual character enhancement is yet another brick in the “lack of character customization” wall so many fans feel Diablo 3 has built between players and any feeling of attachment to or ownership of our characters.

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69 thoughts on “On the Drawing Board #25: Paragon 2.0 = No Feeling of Character Progression?

  1. IMO, they should have objective-based endgame progression rather than “grind EXP as efficiently as possible” endgame progression.

    Tie it to achievements that give achievement-specific boosts, tie it to some sort of repeatable but randomized system (basically exactly like adventure mode is, except have adventure mode explicitly reward an alternate advancement currency), tie it to a fully randomized metasystem (random skills, have to complete 5 bounties without dying on a specific difficulty, unlocks a minor stat boost specific to the monsters you killed for the bounty, etc.).

    I don’t think this will happen as it is too punitive and restrictive for the way the game is being made, but it is what it is.

    • Thank you, that’s what I wanted to say.

      Paragon or the old D2 leveling system were perfect for bots; repetitive runs doing the same things over and over again. Bounties seem like that, too, although your repeating the same thing across the entire map, so I guess that’s a kind of progress. Rifts seem the best; add in different goals and mechanics other than Guardians, and you’re close to the perfect system.

      But I think the elephant in the room is that Blizz is treating D3, from now on, as a real console game. This isn’t a game they expect people playing for years on end. I guess that’s kind of a good thing, b/c then they’d be putting in all sorts of reputation grinds, attunement quests, and XP/Valor/Daily caps, and other blatant time sinks in front of us.

    • Frankly, I really like your idea about tying endgame advancement to achievement-specific rewards. One of my main problems with the ARPG genre overall is the reliance on luck – that the game is about acquiring powerful loot, and the way to do that is to get lucky (as opposed to finishing difficult objectives or defeating super-bosses, as in other kinds of RPGs). Tying endgame bonuses to achievements helps smoothe that problem, because the bonuses would be based on player achievement – i.e. completing difficult objectives – rather than simple luck-of-the-draw. Obviously that kind of system would have to be worked out first, but I think that the idea is really solid. I think you should post that idea to Blizzard and see if a Blue would send it to a Dev. It probably wouldn’t make RoS release, but it’s a great idea for real progression.

      • Have no real interest on posting on the Battle.net forums. But I’ll tell you what, I’ll make a post at some point over this coming week about two things I’d like to see in D3 (the first being the one up here, the second being a roguelike-esque mode that provides added challenge and replayability to Adventure Mode) and anyone can feel free to repost it on Battle.net if they want. I doubt I’m the first person to have this idea, and if any of the CMs want to “pass it on” that’s cool with me, but I have a strong feeling the devs know exactly what they’re doing, and challenge-based character advancement is not in the cards.

    • Instead of every paragon level being super rewarding … maybe make Milestone rewards. Like … every 25 levels you gain permanent 25%MF/GF and additional 10 points per paragon tab.

  2. This is actually the only thing I hated about RoS. I do think that Sharagon is a bad idea.

    Part of the reason we play alternate characters is because we want to start from scratch. We want to get away from the tedious end-game grind and just take it slow and have fun learning and leveling a completely new class. It makes sense that you have a high-leveled character and your alts are weak. Equality is not needed in an RPG game. It ruins the idea of character progression. And don’t get me started with the endless cap. There is no goal anymore.

    While I believe that there should be some incentive for players to try out new classes, Sharagon is not the answer.

    • I forgot to add to my post that if Blizzard just want to push the idea of playing different class, why not add a daily bonus? For example, this day if you play a Wizard he will a useful buff (+MF, +chance of legendary drop extra damage, etc) that is hard to pass up. But the daily buff should be randomized for each players. We don’t want to see a 5 Monk party all day for example.

      I think that is a very good solution. It can add longevity to the monotonous grind by playing different characters each day BUT it is not such a game-breaking system that forces you to use it.

    • I wholeheartedly agree. This ‘account-wide-everything’ destroys any kind of attachment I might have to my characters.

    • “And here’s the best part; what would that monthly level up give me? One more Paragon Point to spend in the DiabloWikiAdventure Tab! Awesome! That’s 1 more point of maximum Resource! Or .2% more DiabloWikiPickup Radius! I can hardly wait!”

      That one dropped me badly also 😀

      True, valid point made there. Paragon 2.0 needs little tweaks to say the least.

  3. I have pretty similar concerns. When Blizzard first revealed Paragon 2.0, it seemed like we’d have the ability to customize our characters a bit, buff a stat that’s of most interest or use the Paragon points to offset limitations on gear (like put all points into movement speed so I can (finally!) take off those Fire Walkers!). Once we learned how the Paragon points would be awarded, the benefits seemed to be extremely diluted. Take into account the very slow experience gain you’ve reported, the Paragon 2.0 benefits are hardly noticeable at all. Unlike all the buffed up stats on the items, these are really just tiny details that (for the most part) won’t make much difference at all.

    Take that very first screen shot as an example – 33 Paragon points dumped into Strength needs at least a Plvl 132…but would an extra 165 Str really give a character at that level? It’s almost as bad as the bonuses that gems give you relative to the item stats. Maybe the only stat that’s really valuable is the gold/health pick up radius since that seems to be very hard to stack with RoS gear.

    I don’t think that Blizzard wants to re-do this Paragon system down the road (hence the infinite levels) but as they are right now the Paragon levels will just be in the distant background. They seem handy to have for new characters, but that’s mostly due to having a bunch of points to spend at once. If your leveling estimate is accurate, you’d expect to be able to increase one Paragon stat maybe 3-5 times over the course of a year. Even if the leveling rate improves at a higher difficulty and lets you level up once a week through devoted play, you’re still only able to buff a single stat once per month (and a +5 to Vitality is hardly a real difference maker) and of course that rate will inevitably slow down more and more.

    Seems to me like the best way to get Paragon 2.0 points is to level up in D3V now, so at least you can get a chunk of points to cash in all at once.

    • Tigerpaw – “Once we learned how the Paragon points would be awarded, the benefits seemed to be extremely diluted. Take into account the very slow experience gain you’ve reported, the Paragon 2.0 benefits are hardly noticeable at all. Unlike all the buffed up stats on the items, these are really just tiny details that (for the most part) won’t make much difference at all”

      I agree … it’s like “let’s make all the items super but, we cut the legs ut from under the paragon system because … it has to be weak somewhere” 😉 I know they’re not thinking like that for real. They just dont’ want an unbalanced game. However, I think, if they give us a larger quarterly bonus from paragon, they would just have to buff the monsters a little bit more.

      An important thing for blizzard to keep in mind is that players with 100-200 paragon levels are people who have played a lot. And they deserve to rule and be rewarded. I have personally grinded this game for 2,000 hours of play and that doesn’t even reflect on my paragon level (because I’ve been playing since way before paragon even existed.)

  4. But to be real for a second, I do totally agree with you. I watched the live stream last night and I’ve been watching many others. I’ve kept up with Moldran as well. (he’s a very respectable d3 player) But, I’m concerned with the same issues.

    I don’t think it’s easy and I know the team is hard at work. but, I hope that they’re reading this and still open to the idea of change even at this point in game development.

    Paragon system is a great idea but, perhaps it should just be more rewarding than it is. Instead of every paragon level being super rewarding … maybe make Milestone rewards. Like … every 25 levels you gain permanent 25%MF/GF and additional 10 points per paragon tab.

    sprinkle in the freedom to trade however you like(and bring back jewels) and I wont have another complaint about the game.

  5. Why not let us put some points into individual skills post lvl 70? These don’t have to be nearly as impactful as Diablo 2 skill points, but why not let us customize a little? And I don’t mean skill points that “add .5% dmg” either. Things like bigger splash radius on meteor, chance to stun, more fetishes, longer lasting buffs, shorter cooldown w/e. Add some sort of permanence (even if it’s a high gold cost re-roll) and BOOM interesting level progression.

    • You mean like rune levels? And instead of grinding on a treadmill, you had to go hunt down, craft, or trade them as items? Like a system that was in the game and vastly superior to the “iteration” that mangled it?

      • Always +1 for anything that mentions runes/rune ranks as items. By far the best system that was ever iterated away in this game. Would’ve solved so many in-game issues by itself.

        • Similar system exists in PoE, where You find gems, which equipped grant skills and they level with You. Sure enough the system is retarded and very annoying to starting players. Not only You actually have to find gems You want to use (You just started, so no other character has them), but also level them. And they level only when equipped. So know You search for equipment with correct sockets (to equip them). Yes, i know, loads of fun. For some kind of people. And no fun for others. If this is, what floats Your boat, why dont You download Path of Exile and play it to Your’s heart content? You know, its free.

          Current skill system of D3, with forced 6 choices and free respecs is brilliant. I really started to appreciate it, when i started playing PoE, where i had to wait and wait and wait and finish some quest to get gem with skill i though i wanted to use. By the time i got the gem my older one was so highly leveled, that the new one wasnt better. So i played whole 3 acts of single difficulty with pretty much one skill. Boring as fuck.

          • I actually do play PoE occasionally – but I don’t like it because the combat system is asstastic, it’s full of desync, and the entire game is a gearcheck after about Act 2 Cruel.

            I will say, however, that when playing self-found, PoE’s gem system is brilliant for many reasons, including the fact that it forces you to live off the land and build around your drops. The real problem with this system is that the game is an uncompromising gear check after a certain point, so if RNG screwed you, then you just can’t progress unless you actually planned your build ahead of time.

            With that said, though, the quest rewards in PoE actually give most characters the skill gems they need in normal, and the support gems they need in cruel/merciless, so… what?

    • Sorry did I miss the part where you are forced to allocate your paragon points at any point in the game.
      If you want to level a new character from 0-70 without using paragon points to keep it fresh just don’t press the button. Why does everything have to be changed/modified to cater for off the wall requests?
      How worthy or rewarding the allocation of the points vs itemisation is a different matter…

  6. There’s a lot they can add to this game without having to necessarily build a wealth of content (art, dungeons, etc.). Flux is right, though… and I think the whole premise of it is obvious, which makes me hope Blizzard is aware of how shallow it just might be.

    I really don’t want the solution to be “roll another class”. I think that’s great and all, but not the only solution for more content. I mean heck, where’s PvP, for example?

    I’m just really hoping that after a month of RoS, we aren’t back to the forums talking about how boring it is, and how there’s no progression, and then Blizzard has an epiphany of sorts and attempts to fix things once again (Loot 3.0?) by spouting through their dev blogs or whatever. Yes, it’s great they are removing the AH, but the game can still be terrible without it.

    I mean, if they don’t “fix” things this time around, they should just admit they can’t figure out this darn Diablo 3 game design, and give up. Of course, they’ll never do that… this is their chance to restart things for this game/franchise, so they better get it right, since… you know, they blew it the first time around for one of the most anticipated games of all time.

  7. The leveling curve is what it is because of all the cheesy,gimpy buffs they are putting on the weapons and armor items.
    Drop 500 health globes in 2 sec., immune to all the elements on armors and ammys etc., 100% damage of life to monsters, it’s the itemization again and again, over and over.
    They have not been able to marry the items to the progression, including skill and stat development.
    CB the new must have, cool down too, sucks a big one for diversity.
    They have a lot more to do to get this on the right track, they’ve been told of all the fixes and just go their own way.
    It’s obviously Bliz’s game and it appears they are taking it the way they want or need($) strictly for their best interests. Too Bad, it could be a really good game and we all know it>
    Gets off soap box again.

  8. I’ve seen KingKongor play some on his stream. I don’t really like him that much but in lack of other streams…

    Anyway. He was at lvl 259 when he started the beta (He must have been paragon 500 before or something) and is now 262 or 263.(don’t remember exactly) Well, he has played a lot, but still that is 3-4 levels in less than 1 week play. And he is 100 levels ahead of you. I don’t think this is as bad as you make it out to be once you start doing harder content and starting to grind bounties.

    That being said, I agree with you on that is not exactly a huge motivator to keep playing after you reach a certain point and you lose the sense of individual character customization.

    It’s something I feel they have to fix at some point. Maybe in some major patch after release.

  9. Shargon is horrible. I thought it sounded bad after Gamescom. Then they revealed you aren’t even allowed to assign points as you see fit, making the entire system totally redundant.

  10. What if after paragon lvl 200 or so, you only got a paragon point every 10 lvl, and in all other lvls you got a Paragon goody bag with a legendary, some crafting materials etc, with each paragon lvl coming much more often. More dings!

    Could also award “keys” for end-game, like for the Nephalem Rifts, and other end-game if it is ever added (like, if they ever add rarer maps to the Rift system, PoE style, those could also be awarded from paragon lvls)

  11. I believe the system can be rewarding if you get 5 points to spend in secondary stats(you can assign them freely) and 5 points in primary stats every level ,but then a new problem arises and that you will cap secondary stats very early in Paragon levels and what you are left with is 5 points in primary stats every level and that is nothing when you are level 400 or whatever , so they should find some kind of reward for when you are capped in secondary to make leveling worthwhile.

  12. They sould largely increase bonuses from the new paragon system, and simultaneously decreasing them from items. It would feel my characters is indeed getting stronger and not because they got better gear. Normal level ups could grant 1 parapoints per characters too for each individually on the way to lvl70.

    What is the maximum primary stats from gears that a character can gather at lvl70? 8000-10000? Why not make it so that 4000 could come from paragon, and 6000 from equipments? But i’m not talking about putting 800 points in str for example, but 1 point would grant 16 str for example. Same for chc, chd, ias, they could also add crushing blow, splash damage, resource regeneration, etc to the list. But at the same time limit maximum points per category.

    If i could get lets say 25% chc from paragon, then i could not max out chd and ias too. The other 25% chc could come from gear, and the last would worth maybe 50% chd too if i put a few points in it, but then my char would be chc oriented. Or 150% chd from paragon and 150% chd from gears, but then the max chc would be 25% + 5% from paragon because of the restriction.

    So there sould be a balance in power between bonuses from paragon levels and gear, and also some restriction placed on paragon system.

    This ways character would grow strogner, but gear would still matter too. And they could balance for pvp too. This millions of damages are just out of controll.

  13. Does Sharagon(TM) allow each character that hits level 70 to assign points differently. Or is stat allocation shared for all characters?

    • Individual, b/c character have a resources tab, and I believe they have one tier different in the defense tab (Monks have Dodge chance, Crusaders have Block chance/Block amount). Can anyone confirm/deny? Or does everybody get dodge chance?

      • Yes, all chars on the account have access to the total number of paragon points. And can spend them differently, or the same, etc. They’re very impactful at level 1; starting out with 10% IAS or 1500 hps (instead of 100) really changes the early play. By 70 though, the paragon bonuses are more of a “top if off” type thing. Though I have 150 of them; someone with 500 would obviously get more from it.

        • But what about dodge? Does every character have paragon points for dodge chance, or do Crusaders get block chance? Is the resource the only variant between classes in paragon?

          • Everyone has dodge chance. Everyone has +max resource also; no one has +% regen rate. I think they wanted to keep it as standard as possible, cross-class.

  14. My main issue with current paragon is the loss of mf when changing characters. This is the one aspect of paragon that should be shared. Smart dropss is kind of redundant with paragon level based power. You get a strong dh by playing it a lot to get more dh drops.

    Paragon levels are not exciting in live. But they are a necessity to farm items efficiently. I think sharagon should only be mf. There should be other things in place to really customize a character, and those things should be class specific and be build enabling.

  15. How do you take a game that is full of fail and make it worse? Not real sure, but the D3 Devs have managed to do it.

  16. Tbf if you don’t like it don’t spent the time grinding it, for my self l love it and l hope little is changed when RoS go’s live and lm looking forward to pushing for the 1k + paragon levels

  17. If the problem is that progress comes too slow past a certain Plvl then it’s just a matter of rebalancing the XP curve so that it doesn’t. The question is simply how steep the curve should be in order to give players a “fair” Plvl when they convert to the Sharagon system (to reward them for time previously spent) but also make future Plvls seem attainable enough to encourage players to actually go for them (to reward them for investing time in the future).

    As for the system itself: Like most people I haven’t had a chance to play the beta, but I like the Sharagon system in theory. I’m playing Borderlands 2 right now and it has a very similar system called Badass Ranks, where completing certain challenges in-game rewards you with Badass points that are spent on account-wide bonuses (more damage, more health, higher accuracy etc). You can also disable it if you want to play untwinked, but by and large it accomplishes the same thing its D3 counterpart set out to do.

  18. Ladders are the answer to this problem. Implement ladder seasons that your level 70 character can enter which removes all pre-existing paragon bonuses they receive while they are active on the ladder, and the ladder progression will be based on the paragon they gain while on the ladder. Once the ladder season is over, those paragon points get dumped into your account wide paragon.

    You can have different ladders for different types of players, such as a daily ladder, weekly, monthly, etc. Something like PoE races.

    Include ladder-only drops, or increased % legendary drops like “Double Drop Rate on 2H-Weapons Ladder,” and you have a fun and interesting endgame for everybody.

    The only reason paragon leveling is unexciting is because it has become such a focal point of endgame play when it should be looked at similar to achievements. With the AH gone, if you desire a Puzzle Ring, there’s no longer a way to play to increase your chance of getting a Puzzle Ring, besides blindly farming content. You may play 500 hours and never have one drop, even if you get hundreds of legendaries.

    • Ladder only drops and designs (plans) should be certain. I don’t think that increased %’s would so great bonus 😛

      Clan bound items – you can use them as long as you’re in certain clan (clan in which player, who found that item, was in at the moment). And then simply add clan-blocking, so everyone could block d2jsp 😀

  19. They need to tie some skill permanency into paragon points, imo, and I couldn’t care less if they can be reset whenever. A class needs to have an endgame progression for a specific build and the game still doesn’t have that. Cough rune ranks cough cough in the form of either charms/talisman drops or through paragon. While they turned the paragon system into a cracker from a smelly pile of shit in RoS, this is suppose to be diablo and blizzard and we should be getting a cracker with meats and cheeses. mmmmm.

    RoS has taken good steps in the right direction, but its going to fall flat after a month of play for most people. Most of the new design iterations they have in place are barebones and lacking.

    If blizzard is happy settling for a great improved version of d3 that doesn’t have long term replay-ability RoS, as is, is a good fit. If they are trying to make that “epic” d3 product a legacy game, they have a long ways to go for RoS.

  20. I’m disappointed with the pace you get the levels. If they fix it and T6 becomes hard, then we won’t have paragon levels/week, only 1 per month.

    In order to max out a character, you need 1000 levels and, imo, that should take less than d2 99. It doesn’t seem the case, but I’m not good at math. But, at least, seems less boring…

    (I was very ok with MF runs on d2 – maybe even too ok 🙂 – but leveling always felt boring, imo. Even on 1.09.)

  21. With Paragon 2.0 I know that I will appreciate the head start when I die in hardcore. Once level 70, I don’t see maxing out Paragon as one of RoS goals, I didn’t in D3V and obtaining 800 paragon level is not reasonable or justifiable. From the developers point of view Paragon 2.0 has probably nothing to do with character progression anymore.

    Paragon 1.0 attempted to fix MF gear swap, poor drop rate of upgrades and lack of end game, now that they addressed those issues in RoS the Paragon system lost its purpose, just because the new system level up once you are at max level doesn’t mean it should have kept the name, doing so opened the door to comparison and criticism based on the assumption that 2.0 attempts to “fix something” when it does not.

    On its own, Paragon 2.0 is a nice addition to the game.

  22. Flux, one of the reasons you may be frustrated with Paragon in RoS, is that you’ve already realized all the quick levels in live. So in RoS you might be unconsciously wanting to experience that again. And maybe that’s a problem in and of itself that with account paragon, you can never experience the early paragon levels again.

    I don’t know if I really have a problem with that because a very long term thing like that is cool to work towards over the years.

    But I think there needs to be a supplemental long term thing to work towards that is more tangible. Maybe crafting somehow? Maybe Paragon can influence the probability of getting higher rerolls with the mystic? Or maybe higher paragon can influence higher rolls on crafted gear in general?

  23. Good reading.

    It was also one of my concerns from the very beginning. Paragon Points are a good step in a partial character customization (which is pratically absent atm). But how it is done, well, it’s a whole different story.
    Really, even in this way, all characters seems absolutely the same. In D2 every my charachter was unique, even more if you consider that I have played strictly self found (like now in D3). Atm the game nees a way to make your charachters distinctive in some way.

    An easy solution would be, as I have written months and months ago on the Battle.net forums, to have/earn points for the skills. If I remember correctly, the original rune system for skill had seven different levels (seven levels of runes that you can find and enhance your skills).
    In this way, when you level up, you will use a point to unlock a specific rune (skill) and then improve it up to level 7. Let’s say that each rune will need eight points to be maxed (one for the unlock (level 0) and then 7 points to reach the max level).

    Obviously, in this way there would be no need for the infinite Paragon leveling. They can finally bring back the 1-99, or better, 1-100 level progression. This would have as a consequence:
    1. The feeling that you are progressing with your character.
    2. Customize your character since you would spend your points (up to 100) to fully enhance the skills you are using most or have more skills available but not maxed (be more adaptable to the situations).
    3. Since now they are using a “monster level scale up with you” system (which I don’t particulary like but has to be seen in live how it works), the 1-100 progression is OK and it will bring always a challenge, even for the high end characters.
    4. Legendaries up to level 100 would be interesting to see …

    But speaking about items, they should fix itemization asap. Recently they have admitted that pushing for main stats and DPS was a mistake. And how they fix this? With even bigger numbers for main stats and DPS? Ridiculous. They have to think about this a lot. But this is another discourse.

    Also, there is a possibility to keep the RoS Paragon system (with some tweaks in the values as I see). So, when you level up, you get one point for the skills and one point for the Paragon part.

    This should be easy to implement since they had already a similar skill system a couple of years ago. And the Paragon is new but is separate from the skills, so there are no “conflicts” for the implementation.

    I haven’t said it, but this means no more account wide Paragon Points system. Each character would be separate from the others in this aspect. And limit the respec, absolutely.

    • You people need to get over yourself with the “distinctive” and “uniqueness”, you put the minimum amount of str and dex for specific gear, add some energy if you cast, dump everything else in vitality. Flux keeps telling you to remove the rose tinted glasses.

  24. Well, maybe when a characters gets to lvl 70 only then he should get access to the shared paragon pool. What do you think?
    People could still have their fresh experience with lower level characters and not worry about favoring one in the end game.

  25. Ah, so it’s basically the nebulous grind to 99 from Diablo 2 with just as minimal rewards, that people demanded a while back, and now that they gave people what they asked for, people hate it. Nothing to see here, move along.

  26. This is the same experience that many other beta testers have reported – no endgame and very rapid loss of interest in the game after playing it for just a few days. Not looking good.

    • Those people are podcasters and streamers, they are not representative of the majority of players, tuning and balancing the game for them would be a mistake, D3 was balanced for them at the beginning and even they could not bare the burden. The core audience might drive sales, but its casuals who “buy” the game. That’s whom Blizzard is mostly improving the game for. Because that’s where the money is.

      D2 had no endgame either, you race a ladder then they’d wipe everything and you’d start again, rinse repeat, ad nausea. You can do the same in D3 with hardcore btw, only this time in RoS you won’t fear of losing your character and be happy to start again. Because leveling will be much faster and gearing your character back to MP10 will ?maybe? take a month instead of a year (self found), if even that.

      • your not an obvious delusional fanboy…

        On topic tho, seriously, just scrap the whole damage paragon system, the whole damn leveling system, go back to 1-99, allow us to add skill points to runes/skills and some meaningful stat points that affect play style, and take out the availability of all items. That will bring some diversity.

  27. While the Paragon 2.0 system could be improved upon, maybe the reason we’re talking about it being boring is because there’s nothing else in this game to focus on. The Paragon 2.0 system shouldn’t be a focal feature if left the way it is because it’s far too simple, but it’s become a selling point of sorts for this expansion. So here we are, stating how it’s very much a non-feature.

    If they want to treat Paragon 2.0 as a big[er] feature, it should probably be improved/expanded upon. IMO the new paragon system doesn’t seem any more fun than the current one, save for the fact that there’s a slight amount of interaction.

    To be honest if the expansion had a lot of other things going for it, it’d kinda hide the simplicity of Paragon 2.0 — but even then, it should still be expanded upon. I mean, we want some sort of character progression, right? Something beyond JUST gear alone?

    • It’s a game, entertainment, not meant to substitute as a meaningful life experience. If you want fulfillment and character progression, try the real world.

  28. Another issue lies with the 5 points you get to add to your main-stat (attributes such as dex/str..) for every fourth sharagon level. The amount of main-stat you can get on gear is literally tripled, yet sharagon only gives 5 stat points? I understand the new items went with higher int or vit to move away from trifecta. but as of now the reward you get for gaining a paragon level is going to be nihilist. 5 str on 7000 str is what, 0,07% why even bother leveling?

    • The size of the individual bonuses could certainly be debated. And +5 to a stat from a paragon level in a game when gems with +70 (and up) drop regularly is silly. Part of it seems related to the need to not make a brand new char with full Paragon Points comically OP. But 1) I’m not sure that’s a bad thing since people mostly want to get to 70 ASAP when they reroll, and 2) easy enough to limit access to PPs for new chars. You get 20% of them every 10th level or something, so not the full total until lvl 50.

      • I am actually a little surprised to see that you can assign Paragon points to a level 1 character. I always thought that whatever Paragon points you had accrued, wouldn’t kick in until your characters reached level 70. I feel kind of wrong that lvl 1 characters should start off with Paragon points.

        If anything, like Flux suggested, they could make it something like, where every 5 or 10 levels (while leveling) would unlock a percentage of paragon points. It would give you some option to stat up where needed for the level you are at, and wouldn’t make you overpowered at lvl 1.

  29. I dont mind slow progression, but I mind how weak the bonuses are for the effort.

    This is a game where items come with almost +1000 to a stat regularly!

    And you’re telling me I’m getting 250 only for putting in 50 paragon points? Screw that. Nearly every single bonus ought to be doubled from current values, which a couple are probably strong enough to ‘only’ get 50% boosts.

    At current values, Paragon is largely meaningless. Its all gear.

  30. Why does paragon even have to offer the same boring stuff you get from items (it cant be said enough, get rid of the str, dex, int system goddammit).
    What if instead of those 3, you could pick %fire, frost, poison etc dmg.
    And if Utility instead was stuff like:
    X% increase in monster density, X% increase in elite spawns, X% increase in boss spawns in Rifts, X% increase in monster dmg & droprates etc.

    Less generic universal stuff, and more stuff that might offer a benefit, but also come with its own “negative” aspects (well, more monster density would only be negative if combat ever gets improved of course).

    Then paragon could help with character specialization (rather than just “moar generic damage), but also help with gameplay specialization.

    I guess there is an issue of how these things would interact in multiplayer though…

  31. Sorry, haven’t read what everyone else has written (i read to slow 🙁 ).
    Why not give people the option?
    When you first upgrade to RoS you get the full distribution of points. But after that you get an option. For this run through i want to attribute all my points onto this toon. But the next run through you could change it so it went between them all.
    Then, when you started a new 1 (ie. you die in HC) even though the 1 you just lost was a higher level, all your toons get upgraded to what they would be had it been on shareagon right from the start. (If you catch my drift)

  32. As has been said earlier, with so much main-stat and vitality and other stats on items the paragon bonuses DO seem silly.

    I have always thought that paragon points should have been allowed to help modify our favorite skills damage, you could actually keep the tiny bonuses on the points because it actually makes sense when its actual damage from a specific skill that you love to use.

    Or perhaps with enough points you could synergize your skills like in D2. 10 points in one skills helps your secondary by a small amount. Something like that.

    I would have rather had charms then paragon points anyways. I wanted to find more item types and modify my stats at the same time.

  33. Making Paragon levels infinite is a huge mistake. Not only does it NOT give you any customization in the long term (Every1 ends up maxing the same thing), it is going to cause huge problems for future updates/expansions. My Bobby sense tells me that the 2nd expansion will have YET another stat inflation, just so new players can catch up to paragon 1000 players. This is a bandaid fix to a bad design.

    There is a reason why almost all RPGs have a level cap including their own games but the Diablo team does not get it. We want real end game and customization

    Ultimately, Reaper of souls will be super fun for 2 weeks. For the new generation of gamers where if you play a certain game more than 40 hours, it is a ‘good’ game.

    But as a ‘Diablo’ game, reaper of souls still isn’t quite the Diablo game we are expecting.

  34. It working as it should. You only play 3 hrs a day, that 21hrs in a week. Some players play 16hrs – 20hrs a day. If they nerf Paragon 2.0 levels to work for you then the more dedicated players will feel the game is too easy and they will be at p2000 in a less than a month.

    Because different people play differently there is nothing blizzard can do to balance paragon levels. Either you commit more time to the game and increase your progression or you play less and expect slow progression.

    As the game stands we have players that have 10 characters at p100 an other that have one character a p15. Don’t cry for blizzard to nerf Paragon levels just soo you can grind to p2000 in a month. Consider that the game is played by more than just you.

  35. Let’s boil the problem down to its core and work from there.

    1. We like the early game where rewards come quickly. But the pace of incoming rewards naturally slows down as we level. Eventually, it slows down to a crawl and it feels as if no progress is being made.

    This is a common problem in RPGs. And bright minds have developed fixes in the past. Lets review them.

    a. Reputation grinds. We see this in WoW. You have your standard experience bar, but there are also many factions that you can earn reputation with. And you start at, say, level 1 with these factions, and by completing objectives you quickly raise your rep, which unlocks rewards very quickly from those factions. You can be working on unlimited numbers of factions at the same point in your characters career. The downside is it can lack challenge. They offer a lot of content, but developers risk falling into the trap of making it too easy to rep grind, making it boring.

    b. gated rewards. You have long term objectives set out before you. At some point, maybe in a month, 6 months, a year, you will reach reward levels. Typically the rewards do not come quickly but they can be made quite powerful and therefore attractive.

    Now, the way I envisioned Paragon 2.0 is an “account skill tree” and having EPIC rewards at the top of the tree that can only be reached after quite a long time. They have to have two characteristics:

    1. difficult to reach (maybe up to a year just to reach ONE)
    2. game-changing
    3. also needing the player to complete an epic quest to receive the reward, and it must be challenging!

    reward examples:

    a. epic merc! A collection of powerful mercs with enhanced abilities! Choose one!
    b. maphack! A lot of people loved this in d2. Add it in d3 as a feature! An enhanced map that offers a radius of map reveal, locations of hidden events, location of goblins, etc.
    c. hardcore characters have a % chance to survive a killing blow.
    d. extra pages of stash
    e. an extra item slot in the equipment tab.
    f. automate picking up equipment
    g. a universal merchant that can be summoned so you dont have to go back to town.
    h. special skills that are powerful. for example: wild enchant: a good chance of giving you exactly the same enchant you can get in RoS. A poor chance of it being worse, a 2% chance of being better than anything the mystic can offer. make it unable to be spammed.

  36. Paragon is shared across the board, yes? Why not have a total sum that can be given to one character of your choice instead of every characters gets the same amount of points to spend? If I have 100 points and I use 2 characters, I want those 100 to be shared unto both of these 2 characters. I might put 80 points in my Barbarian and 20 on my Wizard.

    I would also lower the cap of each paragon-ability from 50 down to 10, 20 or 25. Making each step a bigger bonus.

  37. It’s simply retardedly designed system. Look at Kripp – he has like 11.000 strength on his Crusader and he can add whooping 5 (FIVE!) strength to his char after reaching next paragon level. ROFL.

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