On the Drawing Board #25: Fixing Attributes


In a long thread in our Diablo 3 community forum, talking about a fan’s big wish list of Loot 2.0 changes, the conversation moved to something not addressed in the OP; DiabloWikiattributes. Most players complain about how attributes work in Diablo 3, and most players think that attributes need to be “fixed” in some way as part of the Loot 2.0 itemization overhaul, whether that’s a minor change in a patch or a huge change in the DiabloWikiDiablo 3 Expansion.

So, what’s right and wrong about attributes now? Do they give too little, too much, or just right bonuses to the classes? Aside from damage boosts from the DiabloWikimainstat, Dexterity, Strength, and Intelligence provide additional bonuses as well, and that’s where much of the player debate and discontent comes in. What could be done to boost the use of non-mainstat attributes, so that Barbs would want (or at least not hate) getting items with Int and Dex, or to make a Wizard crave (or at least tolerate) Str and Dex? Can the system be fixed just by tweaking the numbers, such as giving Monks, DHs, and Barbs *more* +resistance benefit from INT than Wizards and WDs get from it?

Mainstat bonuses: No Goldilocks Here

Goldilocks refers not just to the golden-haired girl of lore, but to balance in a system to that’s “just right.” Like the Baby Bear’s bed and porridge. And in my opinion, the current class bonuses from attributes are all Mama Bear or Papa Bear. Rating the non-damage benefit each class gets from their mainstat from 1 to 5, with 1 being too weak and 5 being too strong (and 3 being Goldilocks!), I’d judge thus:

  • Barbarian: Strength boosts Defense: 5
  • Wizard and WD: Intelligence boosts Resistance: 4
  • Monk and DH: Dexterity boosts Dodge: 1.5
  • Click through for support for those opinions, plus suggestions and discussion about how to make all attributes more useful for all classes.

    DiabloWikiStrength‘s stat bonus is one of the main reasons the Barb is so DiabloWikiOP, since high defense works fantastically with his tanking play style (and gets amplified by passives). It’s the main reason players can survive MP10 with a far-from-godly Barb while no other class can hack that difficulty level without fantastic gear, since high defense provides so much damage mitigation (and since Barbs get such huge DPS and free life leech from their passives.)

    DiabloWikiIntelligence provides a very nice bonus to resistance, but not enough to be game changing. 1000 points of Int provides 100 res all, which means that most well-geared Wizards and WDs have 250-350 res all from their mainstat. As that’s more res for “free” than a lot of DHs have from all their gear combined, and considering how much a big roll of Res All adds to the price of most items, that’s a pretty good stat benefit.

    DiabloWikiDexterity is the real sticking point, since Dodge is much less appreciated than the other stat bonuses. I’m pretty sure it’s not very helpful to most DHs, as they die from so few hits in glass cannon builds, but for tanking style Monks Dodge might be fantastic and essential — it’s just really hard to tell since you can’t turn it off to compare performance with and without Dodge.

    Those points are open to debate and I’d love to hear differing opinions, ideally from players who have played all of the classes and thus have some basis for objective comparison. Even if everyone agrees or disagrees on the relative merits of the various attributes, the related point is the one that generates the most fan complaint and discussion… how to make non-mainstats interesting or useful to the other classes. That’s something most fans and devs feel is lacking now; a compelling reason for a Barb/DH/Monk to value Int on gear, etc.


    Increase the Current Attribute Bonuses

    The easiest fix, since it just involves tweaking the current numbers, is to make the current attribute benefits bigger, especially for the non-mainstat classes. For instance, what if INT still provided exactly the same Res All benefit to Wizards and Witch Doctors, but the Res All bonus it granted to Monks/DH/Barbs was doubled? Or tripled?

    Currently if your Barb/DH/WD has 500 INT from stats and gear, that’s worth 50 Res All. Not a terrible bonus, but it’s not impactful or awesome, and we know how important those adjectives are! So what if those bonuses were doubled or tripled? Then you’re getting 100 or 150 Res All for free, and if you found an item that had +100 to INT you’d still wish it had your mainstat instead, but hey, that’s 20 or 30 res all right there. Would DH/Monk/Barbs change their gear objectives to get up to 1000 INT in order to score 200 or 300 res all from it? Probably not, but it’s a step in the right direction.

    I’m not sure that’s fair to the mainstat chars, though. If you had to get 3000 Int on your WD/Wiz to equal the benefit some DH got from 1000 Int… drama?

    Another problem is that the increased bonus theory works pretty well for Int since all classes value it… but not so much for Strength or Dexterity.

    No one dislikes having more Armor in Diablo 3, but it’s not as universally desired as Res All. Most Monks would love a bigger Armor benefit from their strength, but artillery-style DH/WD/Wiz would find it much less interesting since their goal is to be ranged attackers and not get hit at all.

    And then you get to the Dodge benefit from Dexterity and the fecal matter really hits the oscillating air circulation device. As I admitted above, my main play time has been with Monks and I don’t really know how useful Dodge is. I guess it helps, but you’ll note that it’s not found as an item bonus, and that the Monk skills that boost it are widely unused. The two passives that boost Dodge are The Guardian’s Path or Sixth Sense, and if you check the most popular Monk skills you’ll see their unpopularity. Sixth Sense could be called “14th place” since it’s right at the bottom of use rates, and I’d bet most people using Guardian’s Path are doing it for the Spirit regen with a two-handed weapon; not the dodge bonus while dual wielding.

    Furthermore, if anyone can find a quote of a Barb, WD, or Wizard ever saying, “Man I just wish I could get more Dexterity, or had a way to boost my Dodge up like those lucky DHs and Monks!” I’ll donate my next Fiery Brimstone to a charity of your choice.

    So in conclusion of that point… boosting the benefit of attributes for classes that don’t want them for their mainstat might help make INT more desired, but it wouldn’t be fair to Wiz or WDs. Boosting STR’s benefit would only be desired by Monks, and boosting Dexterity would go unnoticed since no one can tell if Dodge does anything or not.

    Okay, next idea then.


    Add DPS From All Attributes

    I’ve seen this suggested in forum posts and I guess it would work, and it might actually open up some interesting build variety, but it’s not very elegant or creative. The concept is to just make all the attributes boost DPS, the way that mainstats do now. Exactly the same amount of benefit, so 1000 Str or 1000 Dex or 1000 Int would give exactly the same damage bonus to all classes. (And if you had all three at 1000 that’s 3000 stat bonus, same as if you had that in your mainstat today.)

    A thought exercise. If that was in the game right now, and Monks got the same damage bonus and Armor from Str that Barbs get… would we instantly see Monks trying to get +Str on all of their armor, since the damage mitigation from Str is so much more powerful than the Dodge bonus they get from Dexterity? Would we instantly see Demon Hunters trying to get Str and INT instead of Dex, since they’d rather have more resistance and damage mitigation than Dodge?

    There’s no way to answer those questions with anything but speculation, but if you’re like me and you’re seriously thinking the answer to both might be “YES!” then that tells you all you need to know about the perceived value of Dodge as a bonus. More to the point, allowing all stats to boost DPS would certainly allow much more equipment diversity, since players wouldn’t value their mainstat so highly above others. (Except perhaps Barbs since Defense does so much?)

    The downside is that it seems cheesy or weird, to give all classes the same bonus from all stats. I’m sure someone would try it in a mod (if we had Diablo 3 modding) and it would be fascinating to see how players adapted, but I don’t see Blizzard doing it.

    What if the same concept went out with different numbers, though? What if non-mainstats added 50%, or 33% of DPS? Not as good as your mainstat, but something. Would that change behavior, or just make players less disappointed to see non-mainstats on items? It would definitely make changes to the weapon market; now you’ll see a Monk fist with +180 Str and it’s priced as if there’s no stat at all. But what if that Str gave you 50% the DPS benefit of Dex? Suddenly it’s a +90 Dex weapon, and that’s got a lot more value.

    On the whole this seems sort of workable, but it’s kind of boring. After all, Diablo 3 is already much too much about, “moar DPS fixes everything!” and this would just exacerbate that condition. So I’m not opposed to adding some partial DPS bonus from non-mainstats, but I’d like them to do more than that as well. Because moar.


    Adding New Bonus Properties to Attributes

    This is often thrown around in player brainstorming, and it could be a great idea…. if the right properties and amount of bonuses were included. But that’s the hard part, now isn’t it?

    Ideally this would come with D3X and an overhaul to all kinds of stuffs, so there would be new modifiers, new affixes, changes in the value and utility of current affixes, etc. That’s a whole ‘nother argument and article though, so let’s just consider some of the possibilities in the current game.

    What if say… Dex added a bonus to Attack Speed, Str buffed your blocking and hit recovery, and Int boosted your Movement Speed? Obviously it would matter how the math worked and how big the bonuses were, etc. I’m not getting into all that now, but just on a more conceptual level… would those bonuses change play styles? Make non-stat attributes more enticing to the other classes? Go some distance towards balancing out the classes, given the imbalances inherent in the current attribute bonuses?

    I dunno. Lots of questions, lots of possibilities. I think it’s an interesting topic to debate, though.


    Is Blizzard Planning an Overhaul in Loot 2.0?

    I’d been more or less assuming that yes, the D3 devs were working on a big overhaul to many of the core game systems for the DiabloWikiDiablo expansion. How much of Loot 2.0 we get in a patch and how much comes in D3X remains to be seen, but most fans expect improvements in a patch and then bigger changes in the expansion. The system changes and loot changes need to work together, since they’re all interrelated and something like attributes is intrinsic to the entire itemization system.

    For instance, if the devs decided that defense provided too much benefit in Diablo 3, they could tweak the base formula so that the damage mitigation provided by strength and +Armor was lessened. That would create a big trickle down effect; devaluing str and armor affixes, balancing nerfing Barbarians, etc… and it would do that without actually changing anything about the items themselves. That’s why I say the changes to systems have to be paired with the itemization changes, since it’s all part of the same feedback loop.

    However, after talking to Josh and Wyatt recently, I’m less confident that we’ll see big systemic changes coming in D3X / Loot 2.0. Both guys talked more in terms of tweaks and balances to the current system, and seemed reluctant to commit to the big changes many players think are necessary in an itemization overhaul. Here’s an excerpt from the relevant part of the interview:

    Flux: There were a whole bunch of specific questions about changes we might see to item affixes. So I’m going to ask one question about that, and depending on how you answer I might ask more, or not.

    So basically in the game now, every class wants the same mods. You guys have talked about that before, it’s all about Critical hit Damage, Critical hit Chance, Res All, Faster Attack, etc. So the question is, in “Loot 2.0” are you tinkering with the current stats, considering different values, hard caps, that sort of thing, or are you looking at much bigger, overall changes to whole systems and the ways attributes function and such.

    In that case the little changes that fans are always suggesting, to tweak the affix values and such, aren’t really relevant.

    Wyatt Cheng: Well, that’s pretty case by case… Okay, high level philosophy is.. we don’t like it when one affix is amazing, and another is absolutely terrible. So that I want the good thing and I’m really sad when I get the other one. Some amount of that is inevitable, but I think the gap between the best and the worst is extremely large. The exact mechanics by which we shrink that gap is TBD, but I do think that gap is too large.

    Some of the properties aren’t good and should be better. One we mention regularly is Thorns. We’re going to scale if off your primary stat, and we’re going to do a bunch of testing, and if somebody wants to go out there and do a Thorns build, that should be good. That should be a thing. I’d love to see people some day in a ton of Thorns gear and have that be a thing that’s good. That actually works.

    Flux: Some players have been speculating that you guys are going to totally rework some of the systems. Like for instance Attributes won’t still boost DPS the way they do now, and it won’t be useful to get 3000 dexterity on your Monk anymore. Or it’ll be pointless to get 60% Crit Chance since it’ll be capped or changed in function. But it doesn’t sound like you guys are looking at making huge changes, or at least you aren’t going to tell us about it yet if you are.

    Wyatt Cheng: We do want to be careful with existing gear, that’s something we talk about a lot. I don’t want to log in one day and suddenly my character is completely broken. So that’s definitely a factor. On the other side… regardless of how people feel about existing stats, the idea that there is an item out there that I really want, that I aspire or dream about having one day, is a good thing for the game. So as much as DiabloWikitrifecta or DiabloWikiquadfecta items are bad in terms of being universal for all characters, it would be a different story if they were rare, hard to get, and I dreamed of getting one some day.

    Wyatt Cheng: Yeah. I think the ideal, which we’ll strive towards but may never reach. But the ideal is that the definition of perfect gear is different for every class. And even within the same class since people have different builds.

    One thing I think about a lot, is how do we make it so Attack Speed is good for a lot of people, but not for everybody. That’s a tough design problem and we have some ideas, but can we apply that to everyone? So that not every character wants crit, or crit damage?

    It’s possible that they are planning big changes to attributes and other core systems and just don’t want to or can’t even hint about that yet. I hope so, anyway. As Wyatt says, they wouldn’t do something huge in a patch that rendered current gear worthless, but it’s universally expected that they will do that in the expansion. Perhaps not “worthless” but if D3X is anything like D2X or the WoW expansions, it will introduce new tiers of gear, new items systems, new legendaries, etc, which have the effect of devaluing all current gear since the new stuff is better.


    So, what do you guys think about fixing attributes? Can it be done with minor changes, adding new bonuses, adding some DPS, etc? Or does the whole system need to be blown up and reworked, and damn the damage to current gear and economy?

    Comments

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    1. I would go back to an Attribute System that is more like the one from DII One Attribute that increases all damage, anotherone which increases critical hit Chance, one which reduces all damage taken & one which dose something with cooldowns & resource costs.

    2. Another possibility is each character gets different bonuses for each stat, similar to the other Diablo games. One point STR gives a barb X defense but it might give a DH 200X defense.

      These stats should do more however, like the attack speed/hit recovery/etc. mentioned above.

    3. The whole reason why Dex is pointless is you can’t dodge most of the attacks that’d actually kill you. When it still was possible to do that Dex was a good stat.

      Well that and most classes get 15-20% dodge and DH/Monk gets 35% or so… not such a big difference when compared with 3k armor or 300 res all.

    4. Probably I’ll get the PartyPooper affix for saying this but Blizz seems to be regretful about the infamous attack speed nerf of 2012. And that was minor stuff compared to what Flux is considering here..therefore the expectations for Loot 2.0 have gone through the roof IMO and are a bit unrealistic.
      If you ask me, they aren’t looking into breaking the current systems, but more into implementing gameplay changing affixes and stat roll consistency while keeping the way things work intact.

      I think they’re going right by doing so, if I’m correct. Even as far as the expansion goes, I’m expecting a more diverse gameplay and options via runes and whatnot then an exponential increase in player and monster damage. Current gear should be still relevant, but made obsolete by being “boring”. If they can bring true diversity to the gameplay (niche builds supported by legendaries, like in PoE) than Loot 2.0 will be a success for me.
      And for the community too, no one would like a year’s worth of grind in gear to become absolute garbage in the “big patch” or D3X.

    5. Blizz should focus with fixing other aspect of the game…
      Only thing wrong with stats is that we don’t assign them, let us do that!

    6. let us assign the stat points. end of story.

    7. QUOTE

      Wait, there's attacks you can't dodge?? I didn't know that - which ones are they?

      Most elite affixes are flagged as undodgable, the ground effects in particular. You can dodge frozen, I think arcane, and electrified and that’s about it. You used to be able to dodge just about every attack in the game.

      Remember when Monks got buffed? The whole reason they needed it was the dodge nerf made them terrible at melee.

    8. Lame. Why don’t I remember that happening? Did they say why?

    9. QUOTE

      Lame. Why don't I remember that happening? Did they say why?

      I don’t remember, this was a long time ago. I suspect this was around the time Demon Hunters were actually good, and this offended them greatly. I’d have to find a patch history and flip through it in order to pinpoint a time.

    10. Interesting wall of text. I can’t see them overhauling these things for D3X either amd the DPS thing seems like an easy copout… sooooo maybe that’s on their radar?

      Is it pretty much assumed an expansion class would use Str?

      Suppose you could add another benefit to the main stat, to make it more appealing/balanced:
      Dex adds crit chance
      Str adds crit damage
      Int adds resource regen
      Vit adds life regen

      Seems appropriate. Higher dexterity means you have a higher chance to target the right spot; higher strength means you hit harder; higher intelligence means you can regain power faster; higher vitality means you recover health faster. And the Barb is still OP, which is what we all want right.

      I ignored attack speed since i think that should be put on a gem or other socketable item and restricted to weapons.

      So if you’re a CM wizard, you could stack 1000 Dex and get 10% crit chance. A monk could stack 1000 Int and gain some level of spirit regen (harder to calculate as resources scale differently). A bears WD could stack 1000 Str and get 100% crit damage. Might open up other gearing options by reducing dependencies, like crafting dex shoulders to get cc in a place you couldnt normally get it. Obviously the Vit regen thing would be a boon to hardcore.

      • Looks like the death of Magicians and Witch Doctors, no?

      • Dex adds crit chance
        Str adds crit damage
        Int adds resource regen
        Vit adds life regen

        That would be my suggestions as well. I really like the life regen from vitality as well that affix needs some buffing. I think dex should still keep dodge with crit chance and str keep armor with crit damage. Int should also keep all resists along with some kind resource regeneration of resource increase amount. I think the devs should lower the benefit of x% damage modifier from a characters main stat so that each player doesn’t feel like they’re sacrificing damage instead of using the different affixes more freely. Althouhg I’d say crit chance and crit damage from dex/str would have to be tuned very well so that it’s not too strong of a choice. I think the main point is that the whole “main stat” philosophy or design needs to go…. all stats should be valuable in providing different “builds” for everyone to choose.

    11. Just make different stats do different things.

      A) Your mainstat benefit depends on the weapon you use
      B) Your stat defensive benefit depends on your armor class (they’d have to redo armor, though): some armors convert your STR into damage reduction, some armors convert your DEX into dodge, some armors convert your INT into resist. The more you double up on some armor type, the better the conversion rate. Or, mix them around, such that some armors lead to dex giving damage reduction, etc.
      C) All skills have tags, and stats benefit different skills differently. So, Bash would benefit from STR, but Frenzy from DEX, and CotA from INT.
      D) Take away the “main” part of mainstat, and make the stats all scale damage while doing different things. STR adds CD, DEX adds IAS, VIT adds life while boosting LH/LoH/LR by a factor, INT adds CC. So you don’t care what mainstat the item has, you just want whichever one complements your other gear the best.

    12. The main point is that the main stat adds to damage, and the other stats do basically nothing. Whatever they do, if you really wanted that stat, you could just get an item with that stat instead. Why get an item with int on it when you could just get an item with res all on it instead? More expensive, but you get MUCH more resistance than you get from stacking int.

      Dodge needs its usefulness increased overall. An item with an increase in chance to dodge is pretty much worthless. Which makes dex for a non-dex class even more worthless. And unless you’re a barb, why get strength when you could get +armor instead?

      This overlap between offering the same benefit as another stat, but not as much benefit as that other stat, and only one of the three improves your DPS and the others cannot improve your DPS at all, make it so that the other two are basically worthless.

      I think back to WoW’s itemization. It essentially reached the point where ALL ITEMS have stamina and D3’s equivalent of a ‘mainstat.’ You can basically look at an item and see what spec(s) that item is for, either a intellect dps, intellect healer, agility dps, agility tank, strength dps, strength tank. Add in the various armor levels (cloth, leather, mail, plate) and you got even more specialized items that were only interesting to one out of the 34 specs (plate or cloth healer items for instance). The only stats that were universally appealing were crit and mastery, and even those were more appealing to some than others.

      In Diablo 3, you don’t have specs. You don’t have roles like healer or tank so much either, and tank is iffy. Instead of the six possible types of items (further subdivided by armor type) that WoW has, you have four types. An item good for Barb, an item good for Demon Hunter or Monk, an item good for Witch Doctor or Wizard, or an item that’s useless. You also have an extremely rare type of item that is good for everyone because it has lots of good stats on it but no main stat…but take that item and add a main stat and it immediately falls into one of the other categories and becomes an even better item. Besides which, items that are good for everyone or useless to everyone don’t really provide class variety.

      To a certain extent, weapons offer a bit of class variety, certain classes can’t equip certain weapons. And although the DH can equip melee weapons, it cripples the options of what abilities it can use. You also have class-specific items, but if they have the ‘wrong’ mainstat on them they can easily become useless in comparison with items that do.

      A lot of it falls back to the main difference between WoW loot and Diablo loot. Diablo is randomly generated. Even legendaries have varying degrees of their ‘fixed’ portions and sometimes random attributes as well.

      This basically means that there’s a tiny amount of good items, and an insanely large amount of bad items. This is going to happen no matter what the stats do, just because, that’s how randomly generated loot works. It was like that in Diablo 1, it was like that in Diablo 2, it’s like that in Diablo 3. Remember Diablo 1? Looking for that ring that increased attack speed and resistance? Obsidian ring of the zodiac? It’s a legendary in Diablo 3, lol. And then you wanted to find one that was a perfect roll, or a better roll than you had. And every ring that dropped that wasn’t an obsidian ring of the zodiac (or one of the very few other types of desired rings) was a trash ring. As time went on, any item that wasn’t a perfect roll became trash because it was easy to trade for (or generate, especially in Diablo 1’s hacking) one that was perfect. In Diablo 3’s day, you have the AH to handle most of the items that aren’t so expensive that they go beyond the cap of $250 or 2 billion gold.

      The point is, this is what you get out of random item generation, as opposed to WoW’s ‘guaranteed stats’ system with item upgrades coming from higher item level. Basically, an item level 412 ‘healer 1h weapon’ will always be better than a item level 400 ‘healer 1h weapon’ and so forth. It then becomes the only stat that really matters is the item level, and your choice of whether you get an item with crit and mastery or one with haste and crit or one with haste and mastery (each item only having 2 out of the 3, plus guaranteed stam, int, and spirit); otherwise your options for any given item level were basically identical. (More choices available to non-healer classes, but not much.)

      I think the lesson to be learned here is that stats which benefit some classes but not others actually provides more item variety than otherwise. More items become valuable, because instead of one stat being valuable to everyone and the other two valuable to no one, you have each stat valuable to someone. The ‘your trash is my treasure’ does nothing but increase the amount of trade between players, and is a GOOD thing. It does wind up that you encounter more ‘trash’ overall for your self, but it encourages trade so you can trade your trash for treasure.

      To this extent, I think the best suggestion is to split up the attributes even more. I think tying each skill to an attribute as opposed to tying the entire class to an attribute would be more beneficial. You could even have some runes change which attribute benefits that skill, which could increase rune choice as well, while keeping things balanced. Don’t want two overpowered rune choices used together? Make them tied to different stats, then you can’t pump up the damage on both simultaneously very easily. Imagine if Bash was strength, Whirlwind was Dex, and Wrath of the Berserker was Intellect. Barbs would have to re-gear or give up the build.

      You could even have skills affected by more than one attribute. Cooldown or attack speed or move speed based on dex, damage done or armor increased by strength, duration increased by intellect, etc. So even though two different barbarians have the same skill and the same rune, they have slightly different effects (one does more damage, less often, one does less damage more often) because of their gear.

      This is all just ideas to toss around. But I’ll conclude with this. The problem is not that the main stats are not useful to other classes, the problem is that they’re ONLY useful to ONE class. And only useful in one way, which is basically damage increase. It may as well say +Damage (Barbarian Only) or +Damage (Demon Hunter/Monk only) or something. Because that’s basically all they’re good for.

      • TLDR: In order to have item variety, you have to have items that benefit X that don’t benefit Y. The variety comes from not benefiting Z, A, B, or C either, but right now we only have three beneficiaries: Str users (Barb/Templar), Dex users (Demon Hunter/Monk/Scoundrel), and Int users (Witch Doctor/Wizard/Enchantress).

        The ‘your trash is my treasure’ effect is something we want to INCREASE, not decrease, because it creates trade and trade is fun and good. Items that are treasure for everyone are boring, because then either everyone has it or everyone doesn’t have it and there really is no in-between or option for customization. Either you have it or you don’t, and if you have it you’re the same as everyone else that has it and if you don’t have it you don’t really matter.

        The best way to increase ‘your trash is my treasure’ is to have skills/runes impacted by attributes directly instead of the entire class is impacted by one attribute for every single skill. Different skills/runes could have different ways of interacting with attributes, such as the typical damage increase, or attack speed increase, or crit chance, or cooldown reduction, or duration increase, or benefit tweak (such as increased radius or movement speed, or whatever you’re getting, you get more of).

        Some runes could even effect which stat is the mainstat of that skill. If your gear is int-heavy but you want to use a strength skill, there may be a rune that while it alters the skill’s effects a little bit (or a lot), it’s int-based instead of strength-based which matches up with your gear. You can also balance runes you don’t want combined easily into different main stats, making them harder to gear for (and requiring more varied gear). Imagine if how much Fury you generate was based on strength, Whirlwind attack speed was based on Dex, and the duration of Wrath of the Berserker was based on Int.

        • What you say hinges on “trade is good”. But I’m not sure how you reached this conclusion.

          What if I enjoy finding items myself?

          The current system is great for trading. The best items are very rare and you have the AH to make trading as simple as possible.
          But for me, this makes actually playing the game less fun because I have no expectations of finding items I want to use. I’m just working, so I can eventually buy the item I want.

          • As many people have said, if you never trade or buy gear on the AH, then you find upgrades much more often since you haven’t already leapt to the better gear. You’re more likely to make incremental steps in gear as you upgrade from pieces you find yourself, instead of one big leap from ‘not having the best’ to ‘having the best’ from purchases on the AH.

            It’s still uncommon to find upgrades for yourself though, but that has nothing to do with gear versatility and everything to do with randomized gear.

            In a system where everyone wants the same gear (like CC, CD, IAS, etc.) and it has say a 1% chance of spawning in the randomly generated system, that’s really no different from a system where you want certain stats for your build, and I want certain other stats for my build, and that guy over there wants other stats for his build, etc. You have a greater chance of finding gear that’s useful to SOMEBODY (hence the trading) but still have a 1% chance of finding your own gear.

            If you change the system to weigh more heavily for stats that you want, instead of being ‘purely’ random, then you improve the 1% chance and make self found easier. (I think they did this for the console? Don’t know. Guess we’ll find out when it releases.) It reduces trade of course, since you would be more likely to get gear you want than trash that someone else would treasure, and someone else would be more likely to get gear that they want rather than trash that you would treasure, but it’s certainly an alternative system.

            I’d rather see a system where every item that drops is useful to some build, somewhere. Maybe not the build you are playing and/or can play (if it’s a different class) and/or *want* to play, but the item would be useful for that build, give or take the item level.

            In WoW, it’s like that. Pretty much every item in the game is useful to at least one of the 34 specs, unless they already have a similar item that’s higher item level.

            Converting that to Diablo, I’d rather see that items always roll with useful stats, and then the question is did they roll perfectly or not, where people trade (or farm) for better rolls. And in addition, have every stat be a useful stat to at least one build. (These two things sort of go together.)

            When they make it so that every stat is useful to at least somebody that can equip that item (like why do wizard-only items have dexterity on them, that should be blocked, etc.) then which stats you want will actually matter.

        • First TL:DR that needs a TL:DR 🙂

    13. I liked the way Torchlight 2 did it. Every class needs every stat in different amounts for different builds. Yes, this means some odd things like gun users wanting STR for damage, but there was no One Stat for anybody unless you were absolutely determined to spend 100 stat points to get that 2.5% dps that would hobble your EHP completely.

      It won’t happen, though. Deciding where to put points (or in D3, what to buy on the AH) took a bit of thought, which is Bad.

    14. A ladder reset system will be implemented
      and some items will be bind on account.

      Those two are 99% sure to come with the expansion/huge patch.
      Bliz can’t survive with a shitty game like the current build of d3,
      there’s just no demand to purchase items when they only quantify by the day and never go out of circulation. I think I said this 2 weeks after the release, still holds true but Bliz seems to be slow thinkers so now’s the time.

    15. I think Blizzard are afraid to make the game more complex and that’s what’s lacking currently.

      What if non-mainstat attributes affect certain skill rune properties based on class?
      Barbarian: int. increases damage from runes with elemental properties
      dex. increases range and speed of mobility runes, duration of buffs

      Wizard: str. benefits for defensive runes
      dex. increases duration of spells like blizzard and hydra or after spell effect, reduces cooldown of certain skills

      Similar effects for the other classes. Not making every attribute equally useful for all skills and builds, allowing for some diversification.

      • I feel the same. I have doubts we will see any grand changes to attributes. Judging just from interviews, they don’t seem to have the energy to make these changes.

        TBF, a lot of the changes people are talking about would take some work to implement without creating builds which are beyond broken. And I just don’t think the devs have any intention of making a complicated system. They like their simplified, need no explanation systems far too much.

    16. It is fine for self-found to find good items they cant use in their current build. Maybe one of their other characters can use it. Maybe they find enough items to try another build. Stats on gear should remain fairly random tbh As you describe, make all stats useful first, then theoretically, any item with high rolls can be used by some build. Of course it might not be an item for one of the strongest builds, and the the item would still not be the greatest ever, but if you only found great items all the time, it wouldn’t exactly be Diablo anymore either.

    17. The defensive bonuses from primary stats are truly meaningless. The reason barbarians are harder to kill than other classes is not because of defense. Monks get a comparable amount of defense with higher resistances. Some could argue that monks are harder to kill, but the real thing keeping barbarians alive is a combination of life-steal and wrath of the berserker. Infinite CC immunity is basically god mode. Pair that with really high damage and more life steal than any other class, and you could afford to take more damage than other classes. The sad truth is, they don’t take more damage than other classes. Demon hunters may stay further away, but wizards and witch doctors are typically up in melee range as well. Barbarians and monks get the extra mitigation for being a melee class, so it really stacks in barbarian’s favor. This all doesn’t really bother me, except for the infinite wrath of the berserker.

      What does bother me is the exponential increase in attributes, and the reliance on primary stat for damage. All items under 62 are irrelevant because of the combination of potency and growth of primary stats on gear. What good is a level 20 legendary with +10 strength when a level 30 blue has 20? Even a level 60 item pales compared to a level 63. The damage you gain from this one stat is the number one concern. At some points you might think getting your crit chance and damage to a certain point means more, and arguably it does, but you’ll discover that those stats reach a point where a little more won’t do you much compared to increasing your primary stat. Because crit and your primary stat work together, you really want to maximize both, which means maximizing your primary stat.

      The second problem with the primary stat is how much is the effect it has on items and the auction house. Automatically, primary stat means your item is good for only 1 of 3 groups of classes. You may have multiple characters you’re trying to gear similarly, so perhaps the int Skorn you found on your barbarian isn’t going to the auction house, but chances are it is. Additionally, a perfectly rolled int skorn isn’t going to be worth anywhere near as much as a strength skorn. It’s not because barbarian gear is more expensive, it’s because skorn is probably the best barbarian weapon and probably not the best weapon for any other class. Blizzard might be hoping to improve drops by making poor drops less common while bringing drop rates overall down, but we’re still going to be buying and selling the majority of our equipment because of stat discrimination.

      If you’re playing a monk, you want a new chest with high dexterity. Automatically, 2/3 of the chests you find aren’t exciting. Then the majority of them are going to have the wrong stats. Then the majority of those are going to have lower stats (even if the minimum is raised, the minimum will be undesirable). Then when the stars align and you find all of the above, it will have the wrong resist type. You can always switch to a different resistance to use something awesome, or if you’re another class you won’t care about the single resist, but you can’t ever give up dex for int or strength as a monk.

      The str/dex/int damage bonuses simply make you not want 2/3 of the good items you find. Situations where you could be happy you found something awesome instead turn into situations where you might be able to make some gold on the AH, ultimately leading you to still buy the majority of your upgrades.

      If this was removed, it would also allow for more gear options, which could open up some interesting new combinations. If str/dex/int weren’t necessary for your class, maybe you’d try to balance all 3 and benefit from having lower diminishing returns. Maybe you’d be more likely to wear a demon hunter set on another class. Ultimately, the game just suffers for this poor choice. The previous plan for having stats like ATTACK and DEFENSE on gear would have been a lot more interesting. Even if it just meant we all want ATTACK and any item without it is garbage, that’s no worse than the current system.

    18. “One thing I think about a lot, is how do we make it so Attack Speed is good for a lot of people, but not for everybody.”

      They should add cast rate for wizard and WD, that will do some of the job, and they should make wizard with a melee possible build like Diablo II.
      So they can use both cast rate and attack speed 😀

    19. Personally I’d remove the Nightmare, Hell and Inferno time and effectiveness reduction of abilities and effects, such as slow, freeze, life steal and so on. As well as the same reductions that are applied to Elites before “fixing” attribute point. As it stands now, it is the biggest problem after the affix attribution on items, which should be fix “soon” with the itemization patch.

      This way they could re-balance monsters back to be challenging and reintroduce many utility runes into the end game, also allowing to move away from life saving and escape ability to survive the occasional mistake. We once again could make use of slow, freeze, regen, etc. viably instead of relying purely on EHP and stacking life hit/steal, or gaming the system with CC builds like permafreeze wizards. It would remove the boring tank and spank playstyle, reintroduce the fun tactical gameplay of Normal, and somewhat Nightmare, into late game and boss fights.

      I didn’t have a gaming computer back in the D2 days, so all I know is that there was a reduction of your character’s resistance to all elemental damage in higher difficulties, but whether it would move away from the original formula or not, this is not World of Warcraft and Diablo doesn’t need any form of diminishing return on any attribute, skill or ability, even cooldowns should be removed altogether. This is why there was a massive wall in the original Inferno, this is why monster health was nerfed to oblivion. Because elites in Inferno run through Grasp of the Dead and Caltrops as if they weren’t there.

      Then, once they fixed this, and the itemization prior, they might get to fixing the third worst problem of Diablo; the discrepancy between regular monster health and Elites, which exacerbated the Inferno wall, but most importantly make 90% of the game trivial, where there is only 5 types of non-elite that can kill you, albeit the density patch alleviated the boredom born from this discrepancy, the trivialness remains.

      Maybe then I’d be okay with Blizzard fiddling around with attributes, although fixing unused runes and skills are a more pressing matter than attributes to be honest.

    20. I would love for them to remove DPS value from weapons and do it oldschool like D2.

    21. I find the idea of linking attribute to skills and/or runes very interesting, but I think it would be best to regroup benefit form the attribute depending on the kind of rune.

      Maybe something like that:

      damage oriented runes would benefit from your main attribute
      life & cooldown oriented runes would benefit from vit
      resource regen oriented runes would benefit from int
      armor & absorption oriented runes would benefit from str
      avoidance & movement speed oriented runes would benefit from dex

      Of course, the runes should only benefit from those attribute up to a certain point to avoid full main attribute stuff being the best.

      Or an other idea would be to separate +damage from attribute and, as mentioned by Angel_of_Wrath, give attribute different stat like:
      Dex adds crit chance
      Str adds crit damage
      Int adds resource regen
      Vit adds life regen

      With your main stat being more effective. But also adding a cap to the benefit it gives (no more than X% of the stat could be gained form attribute).

      I believe this would make all attribute become interesting. And with the cap you wouldn’t just max only one of them.

    22. SIZE

      Unaware of existence of official discussion thread, The God put his post separately. Below is entire text, as The God doesn't alter divine words.
      
      
      I, Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, The God, have decided to share divine wisdom with the writer of the article. Attributes were a long-time interest of heavenly being, and indeed a source of many build-diversity problems. 
      
      In his time, The God and a few mortals with an actual understanding of the game mechanics, made a calculation that showed that secondaries, namely strength and intelligence, are actually giving advantages once that certain (enough) HP value is reached - to the point where a strength or intelligence actually equals gains given by vitality. Using other words, they are useful already, and boosting them further will make them more useful than vitality is, under most conditions.
      
      The Divine Being declares that pure increase of attribute worth isn't the best solution, due to faulty and lacking game mechanics, which treats damages from all sources basically the same. 

      The 'dexterity case' is a bit trickier - on paper, it looks useful and undoubtedly IS useful in certain cases, but not all attacks can be dodged, not all attacks are affected (killing blows) making it hard to make a heavenly formula for quantifying the attribute and its gains. The God also blames a lack of 'last HP mechanic' and puddles. P-P-P-PUDDLES! FORSAKEN, NASTY PUDDLES LYING EVERYWHERE, COVERING THE SCREEN! THE GAME IS ANTI-MICRO IN NATURE!

      Divine Conclusion 1: The God declares that pure increase in secondaries effect is not needed. The fact that most plebeians are unaware of point where armour/resist becomes equal to vitality is not the game problem, but their own. Dexterity has problem with game mechanics, otherwise rough on the par with other two.

      I,

      Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, The God, would like to have more options, for example dexterity-based barbarian (though The God doesn't play with barbarian scum, he fights them and wins, conquering their territories in process, but they seem to have support among plebeians) or strength/intelligence based monk. While melee classes, and even demon hunter, are easy to mix, it is hard (even for divine mind!) imagining why would wizard or witch-doctor wants to increase dexterity or strength, but heavenly being would like to leave equal choice to all classes.
      
      I, Clavdivs, The God will put several options for discussion:
      
      I. 

      Governing attribute is the greatest one. If a barbarian (scum) decides to max dexterity, it becomes governing attribute for determination of damage, instead of strength. It results in character with substantial dodge, and much less armour. Same goes for other classes – they are able to choose what bonus is preferred to them, if nothing else.

      II. Certain skills (or runes) are governed by an attribute. For a wizard, having strength could increase force attacks.

      III. Secondaries have additional effects. The God strictly forbids any trifecta-based effects! Strength could give an increasing chance of stun on hit, dexterity immobilize and intelligence blind (these are just examples, not fully formed word of God).

      IV. Primaries have diminishing returns.

      V. The heavenly twins attributes. If main and a secondary are in more than LXVII% borders, they both are treated as primaries for damage purpose, each giving 50% of normal value, and in return, whole secondary effect (The God allows that LXVII% is an arbitrary value, and that whole secondary effect may be lowered).

      VI. Return of weapon/armour requirements. Why have they gone in the first place? . So that every class can use every item, provided that alea (RNG) is on their side? In olden days, no sorceress could use a high level armour, unless heavily investing into str/dex, the same being true for two handed hammers and such. And it was a good thing, preventing certain items to be used by certain classes.

      Divine conclusion 2: The God declares that much discussion is needed! The current system is lacking in every aspect, and needs change. Points under I and V are mechanics changes, which could break main/vitality monopoly, or at least make more drops usable. They can be used alone or together. Items II and III are changing and improving effects secondaries have. As secondaries have a decent effect already, those are clearly not enough by themselves, but perhaps in conjunction with the points I or V can make alternative builds more desirable.

      Mortals are allowed to discuss divine word on this occasion!

    23. The Divine Being’s divine words are divinely small.

    24. The divine being’s words are easy to read!

    25. The easiest fix, since it just involves tweaking the current numbers, is to make the current attribute benefits bigger, especially for the non-mainstat classes. For instance, what if INT still provided exactly the same Res All benefit to Wizards and Witch Doctors, but the Res All bonus it granted to Monks/DH/Barbs was doubled? Or tripled?

      Who ever wrote this is a complete idiot. The whole reason why barbs, monks, and dh’s dont get the added bonus of int to all res like wiz and wd is because barbs and monks get a 30% dmg reduction (they certainly dont need more all res buffs) and dh have the ability to spam gloom a 35% dmg reduction.

      The attribute system is fine as it is there are more important things that the game needs changed.

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