New Diablo 3 Paragon 2.0 Details and Clarifications

Lylirra made a few long replies about the DiabloWikiParagon 2.0 system in the forums. Her first couple of posts were just restating all the stuff we already know, but some of the same questions we’ve been asking here came up further down the thread, and got replies (if not exactly answers).

Will dead HC characters with paragon levels count towards our total? I don’t think this has been answered yet.
Lylirra: For clarity, this has not been decided yet.

Is blizzard removing the MF/GF bonus currently with the paragon levels, and are we going to have to assign points to MF/GF, if we choose, over other stats?
Yup. Under current design, that’s how it’ll work. (Everything still subject to change, of course.)

Bit more detail: When Diablo 3 Paragon 2.0 goes live, the innate bonuses granted by the current system will be removed; all the Paragon experience across your characters will be added together to determine your new shared Paragon level; and then, based on that level, each of your characters will be granted a specific number of Paragon Points (your total # of shared Paragon levels = your total # of Paragon Points). From there, players will be able to allocate their Paragon Points into different stats across four different categories: Core Stats, Offensive, Defensive, and Adventure. Magic Find is available in the “Adventure” category. Gold Find isn’t a Paragon 2.0 stat right now, but again…that may change.

(Note that what category a Paragon Point can be spent in will be determined by what Paragon level you earn. Paragon level 1 gives you a point to spend in “Core Stat,” Paragon level 2 gives you a point to in “Offensive,” Paragon level 3 gives you a point to spend in “Defensive,” and Paragon level 4 gives you a point to spend in “Utility” (or “Adventure”). Each Paragon level past that follows the same pattern.)

Okay, srsly… The dead vs. alive HC character thing needs to be decided upon one way or the other. Now. Every Hardcore player has to consider this issue every time we prepare to play a high level character, and many players have Paragon 80, 90, or 100 characters they refuse to play now, while waiting for Blizzard to flip a coin or read a goat’s entrails or perform whatever scapulamancy they require to make a decision on this issue.

On the Magic Find bonus issue… yeah. That comes up in every post about Paragon 2.0, and we spent much of a recent podcast debating it. Maybe they could roll Gold Find into the Magic Find bonus?) Furthermore, MF is in the DiabloWikiAdventure Tab, and there it’s competing for every fourth PP with 1) +Resource Max and Regen Rate, 2) DiabloWikiMovement Speed, and 3) DiabloWikiPickup Radius. It’ll depend on the size of bonus from each point, but with those options I don’t see many of my characters spending their paragon points in DiabloWikiMagic Find. (Unless I respec before boss battles…)

Therefore… if this system stays as it is we’re all going to enter Paragon 2.0 with a lot of points to play with in all sorts of places, but virtually every character will find their Magic Find and Gold Find much lower than it is in the game today… A fan pointed that out in the Blue thread and got a “we are aware of the issue but we’re still not saying how we’re going to address it” reply from Lylirra.

Click through for that, or hit comments to explain why they’re wrong, I’m wrong, and you’re right.

Removing this bonus and making us spend points on MF/GF reverts back to the original problem that the paragon system originally solved: the gear swapping. How is this going to be handled?
Gear swapping is still a concern, and getting rid of the innate bonuses and having Magic Find as a Paragon 2.0 stat does reintroduce some issues. That’s something we’re still tinkering around with, but haven’t settled on a design solution for just yet (a few other gameplay systems and changes need to be finalized first). I fully anticipate that will be something we communicate to players ahead of time, before it’s implemented, or at least once we lock down exactly what we’d like to do. 🙂

As people pointed out last time, if they allow full respecs on Paragon Points, and one of the bonuses is Magic Find, that’s such an obvious and easy exploit that it makes the potential of MF boosting gear swapping seem totally beside the point.

What’s everyone’s best case scenario for resolving this issue? I’d favor some kind of passive MF/GF bonus from Paragon levels like we have today, but since individual character paragon levels seem to be completely gone, I don’t see how that would work. So Plan B; how about they fix the MF/GF system via Affixes, and from now on items either provide no bonus to those stats, or provide a really big one that comes with trade offs to other affixes.. I’m talking items like DiabloWikiWealth, DiabloWikiChance Guards, DiabloWikiGoldwrap, etc. (*Not( like DiabloWikiHarlequin Crest or DiabloWikiThe Oculus, where MF is tacked onto DiabloWikiBiS gear as a special unbalanced bonus.)

Special items should have much bigger bonuses to MF/GF than you can ever get on Rares or randomly on Legendaries, at the cost of the DPS and survival stats on those items are pretty much sucking. Why is that so hard to enable? How did the devs somehow miss the entire point of MF/GF items in D3V in the first place?


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  1. “The dead vs. alive HC character thing needs to be decided upon one way or the other. Now. Every Hardcore player has to consider this issue every time we prepare to play a high level character, and many players have Paragon 80, 90, or 100 characters they refuse to play now”


    If you had played WoW for the past 6 years, you’d know this sort of decision-making is par for the course when playing a Blizzard game. Every time there is an xpac, there is always the threat of your efforts getting wiped…or not. And you never know which way things will play out. And they won’t tell you.

    • Sadly, you’re missing the point with this “obsolete/time wasting” taunts. It’s question about whether they’ll give you back what you’ve lost and taking the risk is worth it.

  2. Imo if they make paragon 2.0 points based on time invested into an account than dead chars should count as well. Some people have plvl 90+ dead chars, thats a lot of invested time…

  3. I know this has been debated in this forum before but I just want to reiterate my sadness regarding the sharagon point system. I feel this game series has incorrectly moved from a character centered to player centered framework. When I play any type of role playing game I thoroughly enjoy the character progression. There is a lot of enjoyment building and shaping a character through traits and gear. I, as the player, have an investment in the character. I would prefer to reroll a character if I wanted different traits or abilities. The new proposed sharagon system goes further in undermining character investment by providing initial buffs for a brand new toon. If I am a brand new arrogant Barb nephalem why should a twitchey WD playing 500 hours affect my new experience. At some point why not just have one character in the game with the ability to choose any skill from all of the current classes.

    • I agree. I don’t have the problem with the “freespec” mechanic, I think that being forced to make uninformed choices that can only be undone by replaying the same content all over again is a terrible way to design a game, but a lot of the other decisions definitely detract from the feeling of identity for each character. As soon as I played with friends back when the game launched, I was disappointed to see how everyone is referred to by their player name rather than character name. I really don’t like the idea of shared Paragon levels, at least not ones that affect a level 1 character as much as a level 70, and definitely not between SC and HC.

      I also feel there’s a similar problem with how items work. In Diablo, Titan Quest or Torchlight, or even more traditional RPGs like Baldur’s Gate, when you find equipment, it feels like an actual item. You get your paladin’s plate mail and you put it on a mage, now they’re wearing plate mail. In Diablo 3, now they’re wearing some flowing robes. A wizard’s circlet becomes a WD’s mask and a barbarian’s horned helm. You don’t find equipment, you find little packets of numbers that happen to have a random drawing by them.

  4. This is a trivial problem to fix.

    The game still remembers your individual XP, this determines basic stat bonuses same as it does now.

    The game uses your account XP to determine mf/gf, same formula as now, max level 100.

    Account levels grant whatever benefits (except basic stats and mf/gf), and have a freaking ELECTIVE MODE.

    Boom, done, and now the new system isn’t a net nerf for everyone either.

  5. Do I read Lilyrra right there? –>

    So the paragon points are given to the account and have to be distributed amongst the characters? That would make Sharagon a bit more interesting, but would hurt players who like to have a lot of characters with different setups on the ready. (Or HC players building up reserve characters to not loose so much time at once when dying…)

  6. Well, hopefully drops will be more forgiving so that losing that MF doesn’t mean you go six weeks without seeing a single legendary item.

    • And that they will, TheDestructor, if Loot 2.0 is anything remotely close in it’s efficiency to loot 1.5 on the consoles.

      Really excited to see how all this pans out for the game, and if the good ol’ single player D2 feeling can ever be recaptured or not.

      To clarify… I want uniques to have their build changing purposes, I want them to be relatively easy to farm through tons of farming, and yet, the most rare ones to be EXTREMELY rare, thus making us want to find that orb to make a perma-archon wiz, or that those boots to make a zero hatred strafer and so on.

      X’ing my fingers here.

      • Frankly, I feel that the extreme rarity of some of D2’s runes and uniques was one of the worst parts of the game. I’m not saying that some items shouldn’t be rarer than others; rather, what I’m saying is that no item should be ridiculously rare, the way things were in D2. Drops like the Zod rune, or other such insanely rare items, were cool to think about, but realistically, since it was so rare as to be near-impossible to find, it really just made them feel not worth it. I would argue that one of the main reasons people duped the hell out of the high-level stuff in D2 was that it was near-impossible to actually find them. Because of this, players felt that it was unrealistic to actually hunt for these items, and just got hacked or duped ones instead. It’s the same reason so many people used the AH to get gear rather than playing the game: the game felt punishing with its lack of drops, and you could get what you wanted on the AH in five minutes, rather than having to farm for months.

        Instead of having super-rare items, I think that it is a much better game design to reward excellent play with good items. Specifically, I think that players should be able to get the best items by completing in-game challenges. For example, say there’s a D3 RoS legendary that is equivalent in power and rarity to D2’s Zod rune. For my example, you normally have a very small chance of finding one (less than a regular legendary, but much more than a high-tier D2 unique or high-rune), but if you can kill Inferno Malthael on MP 10 in a minute or less, then he has a 100% chance of dropping this legendary, and if you can kill him in 2 minutes or less, he has a 20-25% chance of dropping it. This rewards strong and skillful players; you can farm normally, but you can get the best items by being the best players. This enables you to find items normally, while still providing an advantage to playing well and exploiting game strategies to kill hard enemies quickly, rather than simply being lucky with drops.

        That said, my version of drops is more based on classical RPGs (both Western and Easters) rather than ARPGs; usually in those games, only high-tier weapons are random drops, and most good weapons come from pre-determined chests in dungeons or hard-to-reach areas. As a result, I’m not really sure how that kind of design fits in with a standard ARPG design. However, that sort of design is definitely a style that I prefer. That was one of my favorite aspects of games like Final Fantasy XII or Dark Souls: you could do a normal game run, and get normal gear, or you could push yourself to rush high-level areas or strong bosses early in order to gain access to really good gear. I still remember how good it felt the first time I did a Gravelord Sword run in Dark Souls and realized, ‘wow, I can actually do this!’ I prefer that feeling of being rewarded for good play much more than the feeling that I was rewarded with good stuff for being lucky, regardless of good play. This feeling was a large part of why I quit doing MP 0 Alkaiser runs back last year (that, and that playing MP 0 was just really boring).

  7. Nice! MF will be a nice to have stat again. 🙂

  8. They won’t decide on the HC dead characters until their about to reach default on playerbase.

  9. I really think the whole gear swapping thing is dreadfully stupid. You can get good drops from non-champions pretty regularly, so you really want to have your MF bonus all the time. Also, it’s not worth slowing down your kill rate to get better MF for a single pack, just kill faster and you’ll get better drops. The paragon system can be fully capped outside of primary stats I think, so you can just cap MF right away if you so choose.

    Gear swapping should be a choice that you don’t need to think about. It’s only a problem if you feel so OCD that you want to swap constantly to maximize your find, and if you choose so that’s great because it doesn’t affect me. People should be able to play the game the way they want, and if gear swapping makes it any less fun for you, then just don’t do it. I don’t see why it’s Blizzard’s responsibility to prevent us from playing in a way that makes the game less fun for ourselves. Unless you’re trying to make a living selling items on the black market, you should be playing the game for fun, so play the game the way that’s most fun. If all you care about is the next legendary drop and aren’t enjoying the actual grind to find it, then maybe this isn’t the right game for you.

    If there was a huge difference in efficiency between not gear swapping and doing so, then that would be a potential concern, but I don’t think it’s the case. We’re not comparing 0MF gear to full MF gear, we’re comparing spending paragon points on something like Crit damage to spending them on MF. Does your kill rate drop more from swapping gear or from having the lower combat stats from paragon? Does the better drop chance from stuff you gear swap on make up for the fact that your MF is lower for all the trash monsters? It’s really too much to calculate and I think in the end it’s pointless to do so. Just play the game however you want.

  10. Just drop MF/GF as a stat completely.

  11. Merge MF and GF together and remade it to treasure goblin find. 😀

  12. QUOTE

    Instead of having super-rare items, I think that it is a much better game design to reward excellent play with good items.

    define “excellent play”. i heard wyatt talk about it, but he admitted he has no idea on how to achieve it in d3 and not many people were thrilled with his idea. in any event, the problem with rewarding players for “excellent play” is it could be punitive, unrewarding, and elitist in an egalitarian game like d3. which is forbidden in a blizz game.

  13. Its funny how they don’t need to explain why they’ve made these changes. I don’t mind the idea of splitting up the way we spend our points but it would be better if it were more randomized with more happiness and real living gingerbread men. Then we could have jam fights and things would be wonderful again.

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