MP0 is the Best for Everything?

So suggests a fan (forgetting about key farming) in the forums, which draws a philosophical reply from a CM.

The more research I’ve done and information I’ve gathered: MP0 just seems like the best. It’s the best for XP for paragon. It’s the best for legendary farming. It makes me sad. Why build such a great end game system of MP (and a fun one) and not reward you really for challenging yourself.
Grimiku: The goal of DiabloWikiMonster Power is to give players the ability to scale up how challenging enemies are in each difficulty and, in return, get some pretty cool bonuses to adventure stats as well as the opportunity to earn bonus items. Different players have different play styles, though, so we added 10 power settings so you could decide what challenge level is best for you. For some, MP5 might be best. For others, MP1 or MP2 feels right. If you’ve got a lot of supporting gear, maybe MP7 or MP8 is your so-called “sweet spot.”

What we didn’t want to do, however, is make players feel like they absolutely needed to play at the higher MP levels in order to get the best rewards. This is one of reasons that we didn’t add in Achievements for Monster Power, too. We wanted the primary motivation to be the challenge and finding a level that you enjoy. I gather from your post that you feel the bonuses given for challenging yourself aren’t really worth the effort, but my question is what would you change about it? (Keeping in mind that we don’t want to force players into the higher MP levels.)

So is MP0 really the best for everything? Yes, actually. It’s certainly the best for item hunting, providing you’re in Act Three or Four; in Act One or Two MP1 seems to be the best option, since it so greatly improves the odds of ilvl 62 and 63 drops. The fact that MP0 in Act Three is much easier than MP1 in Act 1 or 2 goes some distance towards explaining why many players consider the Act 3 “Alkazier run” the best item finding course in the entire game.

If you want much more detail on this, bring a snack and dive into this mega thread. I newsed it some weeks ago, but it’s grown greatly since then and it’s full of great info, with mathematical proofs of which MP level is the best. The general (though not unanimous) conclusion from that thread is that MP0 is the best choice for almost every class/build, since the blazingly-fast killing speed allows for more runs and kills in the same amount of time, which beats the slight bonuses to Magic Find from the MP bonuses.

The big exception is, of course, key hunting, since there the bonus from higher levels of Monster Power are huge and very tangible. For keys, and especially for the demonic organs, you want to play on the highest MP level you can hack; a sweet spot that will vary from character to character. (Or even higher, and ideally in a party for the added killing oomph.)

Incidentally, there’s a great deal of debate over how exactly the Bonus Item Drops function. They’re granted for playing on higher MP levels on Inferno, and most testers think the figures listed in Blizzard’s infographic (seen below) are much too low. Competing and overlapping theories abound (since no one but Blizzard can dig into the game code to find out the exact answers, as fans did with the D1/D2 programs) but there’s some consensus that the listed percentages might be checked when anything drops, (instead of just when an item drops) including potions, gold, etc. This would greatly increase the total number of “bonus” items found per game, and I encourage you to check the forum thread for the full debate.

Monster Power impact on Inferno difficulty.

It’s a side point, but I strongly doubt the “that’s why we didn’t make new achievements” part of the blue quote. Blizzard didn’t make any DiabloWikiAchievements for Monster Power because the Achievements are handled by some programers who are all busy with Pandaland and SC2HotS beta stuff. Or at least I hope so, since I can’t think of any other reasonable excuse why we didn’t get achievements added for Paragon Levels in v1.04, or anything at all (Monster Power, Infernal Machine, etc) in v1.05.

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40 thoughts on “MP0 is the Best for Everything?

  1. Thanks to Dethklok, my new DH is running multishot through Act3 MP0 alkaizer runs and it far surpasses ball lightning in my opinion.

  2. If you have above 100k dps mp3-4 is the best for mp runs. Do not forget that many of us play in party, and the monsters die fast. That 100% on mf from mp 0 to mp4 is shows.
    The best characters on streams(above 200k dps) are playing on mp 5 in solo games, elites die in max 7-8 sec which is very good.

    • Yeah, I just woke up and looked and was like, “wut?” Posted this like 2 hours after bedtime, when I was basically typing with eyes closed. Might have been ill-advised…

  3. For my 300k dps buffed archon wiz mp4 hits the sweet spot, elites die in 3-4sec and trash dies instantly, no reason really to go lower so saying mp0>all depends on gear.

  4. Doesn’t MP0 prevent ilvl 63> items from rolling ilvl 63 affixes, or is that not an important consideration when it comes to farming?

    Personally, I’d rather farm slightly slower and know that the items I do find have the chance of rolling the highest stats possible (I found 4 legendaries in less than hour yesterday, at least one of which was ilvl 62 but had an ilvl 63 affix).

      • True, I hadn’t considered that. I enabled MP1 for A1 runs in this patch, but then went over to A3 for a few weeks and forgot why I had enabled MP1 in the first place.

    • That is a very important thing to have in mind but it’s not quite as easy:

      The iLvl63 items will always roll with iLvl63 affixes, if You are lucky enough to get an iLvl63 item, but the major thing is that if You don’t enable MP You will have much less chance of finding an iLvl63 item. When MP is disabled, there will be more levels of items on the roll and therefore the chance of getting an iLvl63 item is small. The Monster Power system will remove the lowest level items and thereby increasing the chance of getting iLvl63 items. You will (with MP1-10) also getting drops that are calculated based on the monsters You kill, rather from a strict randomization. That means that if You kill a level 63 monster, You will have a very good chance of getting an iLvl63 item.

      • There’s a lot of misinformation here. It’s actually much simpler:

        In Inferno, before the MP system a) items had set probabilities to drop at given levels that varied in Act I, Act II, and Acts III-IV; and b) all item stats were based on item level.

        Since the MP system, all inferno monsters drop items with *random affixes* based on monster level instead of item level (provided monster level is equal or higher) and *base stats* based on item levels. In addition, activating the MP system (MP 1 or higher) makes all monsters level 63 and gives the item level tables from old Act III-IV.

        Since all Act III monsters are lvl 63 anyway, on Act III and above using monster power changes nothing, because the stat roles are part of the core patch not limited to MP.

        In Act I or Act II you need to use MP 1 to get everything to be lvl 63.

        • Sentarius is entirely correct.

          The funny thing is that this is how affix drops always worked in D1 and D2 anyway: the affixes depended (indirectly) on the mlvl of the monster you will killing.

          In D3, initially they made affixes depend only on the ilvl of the item, so that’s why anything that was ilvl 61 or lower was almost guaranteed to be trash, simply because they couldn’t access the higher level affixes.

  5. I have a theory that MP1 is the “switch” for much better chances on legendary drops, no matter how much “conventional” MF or Valor stacks you have.

    • That is not correct – the legendary drop rate is flat (8%?) and there is nothing that will change that droprate. You can play at any MP level and the droprate is the same. You can turn the MP off and the droprate is the same.

      Magic Find and Valor stacks has NOTHING to do with legendary droprate! MF and NV is only controlling the quality of the affixes (of all type of items) and if the items is going to be rare, magic, white or gray. Legendary is calculated BEFORE magic find/nv stacks are taken into consideration.

      So, when an item drops, the system does the following:

      1) Should the drop be a legendary? Flat chance of X%.
      2) If the item was not to be a legendary – then roll for the type:Rare, Magic, White or gray. Use MF/NV to determine this.
      3) When the type is settled; Then roll for the number of affixes. MF/NV is used to determine this.
      4) When the number of affixes are settled; Roll for the value of each affix, again use the MF/NV.

        • Jup, MF & Valor increase the item’s potential magic quality (magic, rare, legendary). That was already the case in Diablo 2, and the devs said that MF in D3 works exactly the same way.

      • To add to what Ivan E said, I’m also EXTREMELY skeptical of a base Legendary drop rate that’s anything higher than 1-2%, and in all likelyhood, it’s probably 1% or lower. If it were truly 8%, then that means people with 300% MF would have a 32% chance of rolling a Legendary, just a skosh under 1/3. Not a chance. At 2%, it would raise to 8%, which is roughly 1/13 (technically 12.5, but you can’t “half roll” an item lol,) and even THAT seems high.

        • Yeah, 8% is bonkers high. That’s probably closer to the base rate for blue items from a regular dude. I’ve seen 1/2000 bandied about as a possible drop rate for legendaries – or 0.05% – which seems about right; at 375% MF, that comes out to 0.1875%, or about 1 in every 533 drops. (Remember, not every monster drops something – when a monster doesn’t drop anything, that doesn’t factor into these equations.) I get a legendary / set about once every 3 runs, give or take, and I’d estimate I’m killing about 500 monsters a run. Those numbers feel right to me, though I don’t have any hard evidence that they jive. (I haven’t been keeping notes. Maybe I will to see how it pencils out.)

    • This is a rather bold statement that shouldn’t be thrown around without some research backing it up. Otherwise we get superstition.

  6. I’ve got 200k dps with my good gear and 125k dps with Cain’s set.
    I run with Cain’s set in Archon form on mp1. With 200k I can run on mp5, but even though elite die fast, they don’t die fast enough for me. That’s why I run on low mp.

  7. Almost OT: If someone else is having problems only with elites (a.k.a. they don’t die instantly) at a certain MP, equip a SoJ and drop 1 MP (if you’re wearing 2 godly rings). You’re DPS will likely fall, but your kill speed vs elites might improve. SoJ helps to fix the kill speed gap between trash/elites.

    Personally, I’m running for MF-ish/XP-ish on MP0 act3. Faster run times with cheap lacunis (I use them for Mov. Speed), fast (really fast, not “faster”) elite kills with cheap SoJ, etc.

    Imo, since I’m nowhere near of being able to do ubers at MP5+ (maybe I’ll have to change every single piece of gear to do so… Just “maybe”…), I don’t see a point on doing Uber runs right now.

    The fact I don’t really like any “build” of any class doesn’t help me on higher MP. And the price of gear to not insta-die against reflect damage MP5+ isn’t exactly tempting…

  8. I’d say the “sweet-spot” really depends on what class you’re playing and how much mf you have. For barbs MP0 is obviously best, as they just run through anything and it dies when they pass by, even elites… Except with godly gear, where mobs die just as fast in mp1 or maybe even 2 so movementspeed is still the only limiting factor.

    With my monk I can’t do that, because I can’t use tempest rush indefinitely at the same time as I kill on contact (yet, getting closer to this…) so mp1-3 is a little better.

    Also, the more MF your character has the less you gain from the extra mf on higher MP. Compare a character with 0 mf and one with 300 and let’s say that you’d get one legendary/set per round without even neph stacks. On MP0 with neph stacks, the character with 0 MF would get 1.75 legendaries, and on MP 3 he’d get 2.5 legendaries. The guy with 300 MF would get 3.75 legendaries on MP0 and 4.5 on MP3. Relative to what the two character get on MP0, the high mf character gains much less extra from playing on higher MP. So with higher paragon lvl it gets even better with playing on low MP as you do almost get the same amount of legendaries in the end but in much less time 🙂 This ofc only applies if you can do a run on lower MP faster than one on higher MP…
    Seems like a fundamental flaw there to me!

    I would like them to solve the problem with more monsters (not weaker) in higher MP! But that ain’t happening 😉

  9. I kinda disagree with this philosophy.

    If you can run mp4 or 5 with minimal changes to efficiency compared to mp0, why not do it? Especially to get higher chance for 6-property rares due to higher MF.

    • Efficiency 🙂 meaning I will get maybe the same amount of legendaries with alot less effort – and alot more gold in the exact same time as you if you run on mp3 and me on mp 0 – it is just fact…At least this is how it works fore me << and I usually do public games….items drop like crazy in those.

      • shynta you misunderstanding what he means by efficiency, in this game it time to kill a mob so in this case it normally means that your still killing 99% of mobs in 1 hit.
        Since your both killing X mobs a second the guy on a higher MPlvl will get more gold and more items and better quality items.

  10. Actually I burn through MP5 now with Archon and find tons of stuff to ID. not saying the leggy or set drops are better or even more often, but definitely more rares.

    I run MP0 on my barb just because of the speed factor.

  11. I think we understand what Blizzard is attempting to convey regarding not having the player feel forced to play higher MP levels, but the reality is that players ARE feeling forced to play lower MP levels if they want to compete. As mentioned in other posts, the XP is overall more quickly gained (until possibly a player exceeds a certain DMG/EHP threshold) and the item hunt yields same ilvl items with same range modifiers at a quicker rate. This means higher gold generation for the AH.

    I’d say they are on the right track with their bonuses per MP level, but they need to be tweaked slightly so that at a minimum the ratio between XP generation and item drop generation for A1 MP1 is equivalent to MP0 act3 over X amount of time played. If they ratios are the same, then the focus truly is soley regarding the Challenge of MP levels, which is what Blizzard seems to be all about. This of course means the rest of the MP levels need to have ratio equivalency to the lesser MP levels. This really is the only way to accomplish a “Do it for the challenge” focus.

    With that being said, I’m completely fine with instituting a system regardless if players feel forced to play higher MP levels. That is what gaming should be about. Everyone’s goal should be to play at the highest level. Because there is a AH system, even if you can’t cut the mustard, you can still get the gear, it might just take you longer. It’s ridiculous that there is no achievement or recognition in place for completing the game on the highest MP level.

    • Well said. Especially this:

      “…the reality is that players ARE feeling forced to play lower MP levels if they want to compete”

      “Everyone’s goal should be to play at the highest level.”

      I feel that the reward for higher MP levels should be more significant. I also felt the reward for wearing MF gear should have been more significant, but from my experiences prior to giving up on MF gear was that it made little noticeable difference even at the MF cap. This sure wasn’t the case in Diablo 2, playing at /players 8 or wearing a lot of MF gear I sure noticed a big difference. I felt rewarded for the challenge of killing slower. This doesn’t seem to be the case in D3.

      I understand they want the players to not feel like they are not forced to play higher mp levels, similarly players should not feel forced to wear MF gear for better drops.

      But I think they went overboard with this philosophy and are giving far too little benefit for the players that sacrifice kill speed by playing on a challenging mp level or wearing max mf gear.

      • Actually /players 8 really wasn’t at all optimal in D2. ALl the different /players settings did was alter the chance for minimum drop. Given that uniques / super uniques / champs all dropped the same regardeless of /players setting it really wasn’t ideal for mfing (Pit runs / AT runs etc.). For boss runs meph and higher were optimal of /players 3 and andy / duriel were optimal on /players 5. For council runs (runes) it did make a bit more of a difference, but IIRC even the highest geared people in the SPF only ran council on /players 3.

        I do agree that wearing lots of mf was good in D2, so long as it didn’t effect kill speed. Basically as in D3 killspeed > everything.

    • Best post so far. Exactly what I was thinking when I read the blue post. They have said it themselves literally hundreds of times, if there is an optimal way to play the game, nearly everyone will play that way. MP0 is the best way to farm for xp AND items? Everyone is going to farm MP0. Only way to get around that is if they have the results constant across all MP levels. Same net xp/hr and items/hr.
      However, most people will quickly realise that this is completely unrealistic. Due to different classes/builds etc, there is just no realistic way to balance it like that. IMO, the best solution is to make one significantly better for XP and the other significantly better for MF. Yeah paragon eventually caps out but that’s a long way off. I would imagine people would switch between both and experience both play styles. I know that’s what I’d do. Grind out some paragon on MP0-1 for a bit gain a level or whatever, then switch to MP7-10 for some nice MFing.

      Also: still think it’s absolutely ridiculous that I have to watch an advertisement before getting my capcha code to post a comment… Truly discourages me from posting most of the time.

    • “d the item hunt yields same ilvl items with same range modifiers at a quicker rate.”

      But you’re forgetting one thing … in that higher MF = higher chance of getting a 6-property item, which if rolled properly, lead to the best items in the game.

      So more 6-affix drops could be the benefit of running higher MP levels.

  12. i run mp1 and mp2, i am comfortable with the speed, don’t feel forced or what not this is my choice, i can run 4 and 5 with no real issue besides the odd combination of modifiers and elite monster type, but it is a minor speed bump.

    but i rather run 1 and 2 for the ease.

    i will move up when my dps increases 20k. or 50k more.

  13. Jcakes above is hinting at why the best mp level is being debated. The answer is that it depends heavily on your class, farming spec, where you farm, what you kill, and what you identify.

    If you ignore all whites, mp0 or 1 is ideal. If you kill all whites, it gets much more complicated.

    I play barb and dh – the two play very differently. My barb’s dream is a screen carpeted with 100 monsters (dh nightmare). My dh’s dream is one elite monster (barb’s nightmare). My point is barb gets stronger with more monsters. The damage ouput is not simple. Dh damage output is much more linear and canactually get better when there are fewer targets greatly separated (ie sharpshooter talent). A barb doesn’t usually have this burst capability.

    No question higher mp is better for keys. I’d say about level 7 is the highest you should aim for keys. Reason being that 8 provides only 14% more keys, and any class will be very hard pressed to do a run at 8 solo fast enough to make it worthwhile.

  14. I use the Keywardens as an excuse to inject a bit of variance into my runs. I’ll start at Siegemachines and clear to Azmodan and run Stonefort to kill the Warden. Repeat if no Key, if I get a key I get to go after the other two for a bit by running my preferred areas in the first and second acts. It’s endless Baal runs with a welcome twist if you’re looking to stockpile Infernal Machines and not worrying about efficiency.

  15. I only noticed this extra loot from a single monster once, i noticed it because it was the last and stray monster i killed in the area. I dont have a clue how frequent this extra loot happens, but its kinda cool to know that this is REALLY happening.

  16. No the best MP lvl is the highest you can cope with without losing kill speed. That is if you can kill MP1+ mobs in 1 second just like MP0 do you really think MP0 will skill be better than MP1+?

  17. I find my comfy solo barb run is mp5, but even as I get more items [even i62 and i63 pretty much everytime] it’s getting so old that it’s ALL unusable trash. Plus there’s nothing I can do to help getting the same 4 crap-factory legendaries every run.

    Is it cynical of me that I’m convinced that Blizzard wants drops to suck so bad that players are forced to be dependent on the Auction House to get the best things for their characters? That you literally cannot by your own great time and effort be guaranteed the highest items with highest rolls, even at unhealthy levels of effort. IMHO there does come a point where it is just a game and it doesn’t add to the coolness that it’s next to impossible to find the items you want to use. On the global level, Blizzard is keeping desirable items well contained so they stay valuable, all the while the individual is neglected. You either have to be extremely lucky, spend real money, or be market savvy to excel. To change anything in the favor of the individual will cause Blizzard to make less money so I don’t see anything changing. What I love with Paragon is that it’s a stable constant. Even if it takes forever you feel a sense of forward movement because you can see the progress and rewards. I hope they will implement more achievement items. Hellfire Ring is a step in the right direction.

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